Sensors in the puck...

[Hynh]

Because if we redefined a legal goal to be any time the center of the puck crosses the goal line, the entire integrity of the game would be destroyed.

Why? If the sensors are accurate the goal line should be a good enough approximation for gameplay purposes. Accuracy > tradition

 

[SenzZen]

Also these guys:

 

[Damifino]

why cant they have something like hawkeye from tennis??
they don't have any chips in the tennis balls.

Im sure they could implement this around bluelines for offside and goal lines for goals.

Tennis has the advantage that it measures on contact of a surface. Much easier riddle to solve.

 

[PALE PWNR]

That would work if the puck always crossed the line while lying flat. On a tipped shot where the puck is tumbling through the air it might enter the net in a vertical orientation. Imagine a puck sitting on its edge, perpendicular to the goal line. It could be entirely inside the goal line, but not touching your interior line. That's why everyone is talking about a chip that can sense the puck's 3-D orientation.

The possibility of that happening is extraordinarily remote though, and even if it did, you would likely have a clear view of the puck as it would need to be absolutely parallel with the line and most likely stationary, as someone touching it would move it over the sensor. And at that point if theres ever actually that problem occurring in the game you can fall back on video replay

 

[Alexander the Gr8]

I can't say I'm 100% sure. Best way to know is to bring up an example of such detection in other applications. Are there any such examples you're aware of?

3-axis gyro/accelerometer can give you the orientation of an object relative to the ground. That's the technology your phone uses to know its orientation in space and to tilt the screen accordingly. With a battery, a micro-controller and an antenna, you would know the orientation of the puck in real time with a computer.

 

[1865]

The chip would be cheap to manufacture, but to manufacture hundred of thousands of puck with the chip installed would probably cost a lot of money. Then each puck would have to go through testing to make sure it works. Tons of QA. It's simply not feasible yet.

But then you also have to worry about the chip not working or "dying" while inside a puck during a game. It's too much of a headache. All they need are more cameras inside the posts and even under the ice along the goal line.

The NHL is a billion dollar industry, putting a chip in the pucks is not a problem when you can charge >$100 for a ticket and the same for a jersey.

A lot of the problems raised here are valid, but it's 2016. There are plenty of people paid an awful lot of money to make things significantly more difficult. It's doable, we just need the willingness to fix one of the game's problems.

 

[Tom Collins]

I can't say I'm 100% sure. Best way to know is to bring up an example of such detection in other applications. Are there any such examples you're aware of?

First I should start by stating my electronics experience only extends as far as wiring guitars and building effects pedals. Hardly as complicated as the subject at hand. However, I think of hobby drones and their use of gyros/altimeters/accelerometers to be aware of their spatial position. I would think that one could use such tech in the context of a puck in relation to the ice. In fact, I'd figure that's all you'd need to have actually embedded in the puck. To gauge whether it passes into a fixed space the above suggestion of a coating on the puck used with sensors in the ice/posts could do very well in theory.

I can't say for sure if it's really as easy as we speculate, but you gotta think that if it were, we'd already have it.

 

[Off Sides]

http://www.wsj.com/articles/the-nhls-infamous-glow-puck-returns-with-a-new-ambition-1474930368

 

[cptjeff]

The very, very few cases each year where having the sensor would make any difference beyond what video now allows in reviews are simply not worth the massive investment. That's pretty much the end of the conversation. Can it be done? Yes, but it's not cheap. Would it make a difference? It would maybe change 5 goal/no goal calls a year, 1 or 2 of which would affect the outcome of a game, and the game that it changes might affect a playoff series or playoff race significantly once every 5 years.

Is that worth millions of dollars in development and millions in ongoing operational costs? No, it's not.

 

[Fig]

I thought the issue with sensors in the puck wasn't that we didn't have the technology to do it, but that it was too difficult to do it without maintaining that there would be no issues with the integrity of the puck or the integrity of the technology inside. AKA durability.

How it was explained to me was thus:

Unlike many other sports which have static points of reference and a more reasonable temperature, hockey pucks have to deal with constant impact, high speeds of acceleration as well as freezing temperatures. The issue isn't technology, but moreso durability. Put too much inside, puck could split apart. But put too little inside, either the sensing is not at a high enough standard, or the electronics inside get obliterated every 2-3 slap shots. Tennis Hawkeye has unobstructed views of the surface/ball at almost all times which hockey doesn't have. Baseball is also similar. Hockey also has to be tracked at a higher degree of accuracy in comparison to soccer. Oh, and posts can move, goalies can block post cameras.

We know if a puck is too cold, it will shatter after a period of time. I don't believe I have seen a puck shatter in a long time, but it happens and I think the risk of this happening increases greatly if you put something inside. That's why most of the puck tracking technology is in prototype stage.

I would love it if they could figure it out soon. I a prudent way would be for it to be set up in a way where if the sensor goes into the net, it flicks on a light in NHL HQ for a secret review or something until it is deemed no longer prototype/beta and accurate enough to be relied on 99%+ all the time.

 

[1865]

The very, very few cases each year where having the sensor would make any difference beyond what video now allows in reviews are simply not worth the massive investment. That's pretty much the end of the conversation. Can it be done? Yes, but it's not cheap. Would it make a difference? It would maybe change 5 goal/no goal calls a year, 1 or 2 of which would affect the outcome of a game, and the game that it changes might affect a playoff series or playoff race significantly once every 5 years.

Is that worth millions of dollars in development and millions in ongoing operational costs? No, it's not.

It happens more than you think, certainly more than once every five years. It probably happened six or seven times in the Flyers season last year alone, is that not a problem worth fixing? It's not really a massive investment either, a bit of an initial outlay but pennies in the wider scheme of things to help the refs out.

Away from the goal/no goal situation, it'd also help with shot tracking and over/under crossbar decisions. It's worth looking at and I'm sure the NHL will in time.

 

[48g90a138pts]

The sensors that would determine if the puck crossed the line would have to be in the ice. When there's a big scrum infront of the net, sometimes the goal will move around and it will not be able to give a accurate depiction if the puck crossed the line if sensors were in the goal posts.

 

[Shwag33]

I don't really want to get into the nitty details, but c'mon guys. The arguement about the puck not being round like a soccer ball being a problem?

2 Sensors fixed positions within a puck. A little algorithm and you can paint a 3d picture of how the puck is currently orriented. That's if you're going cheap and smaller. There are single chips that will already determine 3d orientation.


There's many different ways to skin this cat. If I was doing it a lot of the electronics would be in the posts. The most difficult thing would be thinking of logistics and things like security so someone couldnt tamper with it. If you leave it an open system in which all pucks register crossing the goaline it's unlikely but would be easier to tamper with the system.

 

[Hawksfan2828]

...surely it's time? The Premier League took a lot of flak about not having the necessary technology to gauge when a ball has crossed the goal line but now it's been implemented it has wiped the (admittedly infrequent) problem off the board entirely. They've implemented a system where sensors in the post can signal when the puck has crossed the line in realtime. Within seconds you have a full 3D representation of where the ball was in relation to the line itself. Quick, simple and relatively cheap.

Isn't it time hockey followed suit? We have cameras everywhere, coaches challenge and video replay - why not sensors in the puck and the posts? There was an incident in the Arizona v Philly game where the puck probably went over the line but due to Mike Smith being over it, it was too inconclusive to call. Philly went on to lose in OT, who knows what happens if that call is given in the first place?

In the minor leagues I imagine that it's the kind of thing that could prove to be cost prohibitive - but in the NHL? It makes too much sense not to. It's not a massive problem, but we have the technology to fix it so you can't understand why not.

There really is no point... What purpose would it serve?

 

[fighterfoo]

It would be easy to calculate from the edge of the puck even if the sensor is in the center

Assuming that the puck is a sphere, but it's not. A puck on edge can have the sensor closer than 1.5" away from the edge of the goal line and still be a goal.

 

[Shwag33]

Assuming that the puck is a sphere, but it's not. A puck on edge can have the sensor closer than 1.5" away from the edge of the goal line and still be a goal.

But what if there's two sensors or various other ways to calculate orientation and you know the fixed size of the puck and it's dimensions.

 

[1865]

There really is no point... What purpose would it serve?

I...I mean, did you even read the post or any of the thread?

 

[Habs Halifax]

Personally I like the idea of having a speed clock on the TV screen for each shot taken. Sensor or not, make it happen!