TSN: SENS @ the WJC. Tonight ~ Canada vs Czechia 6:30 pm, & USA vs Sweden @ 2:30pm

BondraTime

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Sens fans seem to like it
Others ?

Said at practice yesterday they were sticking him in front of the net.

Is it just me, or is this just going to be a wipe.

Every team, aside from Canada, looks so much weaker than usual.

I don’t see a team that will even keep it close.

A very strong team Canada, and unusually weak teams from pretty much everyone else, with no Russia.
 

Sens of Anarchy

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Solid game by Boucher today. I thought he was one of the more noticeable USA forwards and did a lot of positive things on the ice. I saw a lot of good things and believe he is poised to have a solid tournament.
I was wondering if you would trade Boucher for Bedard?
 
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RAFI BOMB

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Who is the best prospect out of Boucher, Petterson and Ostapchuk?
One challenge with making player/prospect relative evaluations is factoring in the variable of position significance. In this context Ostapchuk is the only player of the three that plays center and takes faceoffs regularly. He might be more likely to be a winger at the pro level, but he is still a player who could play center either full or part time and who at this point could be strong at faceoffs. The center position is more valuable than the winger position, and a winger that is capable of playing center is more valuable than a winger that can't. Therefore Ostapchuk has a unique value among the three given that even if he becomes a full time winger, he could still be relied upon to take key draws or move over to center if injuries require it.

I would argue that the skill level between Boucher and Ostapchuk is similar. Boucher seems to have better mobility and is the more consistent and significant physical presence. Ostapchuk is the better defensive player.

I don't know enough about Pettersson to offer an assessment here.
 

Sens of Anarchy

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Said at practice yesterday they were sticking him in front of the net.

Is it just me, or is this just going to be a wipe.

Every team, aside from Canada, looks so much weaker than usual.

I don’t see a team that will even keep it close.

A very strong team Canada, and unusually weak teams from pretty much everyone else, with no Russia.

I think Canada is definitely the strongest team .. No other team has the depth and have trouble matching the top players... but I will watch. Are you going to any games?
 

Sens of Anarchy

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What is the point of a comment like this? Are you just trying to be a troll or something?
No its a serious question .. I just want to gauge where you are on valuing Boucher. I think you overvalue him and overestimate him on nearly all your posts about him.. so would you make that trade?
 
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RAFI BOMB

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No its a serious question .. I just want to gauge where you are on valuing Boucher. I think you overvalue him and overestimate him on nearly all your posts about him.. so would you make that trade?
Ok, well I think you have never come close to even having a moderate clue about Boucher's skill set. I would have thought that a lot of Boucher critics would have been humbled after his performance in preseason, but apparently not.

Your question is quite frankly ridiculous. Even in my most optimistic projections I still compared Boucher to someone like Tom Wilson or something like Dustin Brown. Bedard is expected to be a generational talent up there with the likes of Crosby, McDavid and Mackinnon. Your question is like asking would you trade Wilson/Brown for Crosby/McDavid/Mackinnon? Obviously, if a choice was that f***ing simple, I would choose the player that could be another Crosby/McDavid/Mackinnon.
 

Sens of Anarchy

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Ok, well I think you have never come close to even having a moderate clue about Boucher's skill set. I would have thought that a lot of Boucher critics would have been humbled after his performance in preseason, but apparently not.

Your question is quite frankly ridiculous. Even in my most optimistic projections I still compared Boucher to someone like Tom Wilson or something like Dustin Brown. Bedard is expected to be a generational talent up there with the likes of Crosby, McDavid and Mackinnon. Your question is like asking would you trade Wilson/Brown for Crosby/McDavid/Mackinnon? Obviously, if a choice was that f***ing simple, I would choose the player that could be another Crosby/McDavid/Mackinnon.
Good to know... I'm curious , which of my comments indicate I do not have a moderate clue about Boucher's skill set?
 

Dan Patrick

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Good to know... I'm curious , which of my comments indicate I do not have a moderate clue about Boucher's skill set?

If you're going to be a dick maybe explain how you think Raffi "overvalues or overestimates Boucher on nearly every one of his posts about him". He said he had a good game and is poised to have a solid tournament. He didnt say he was going to be as good or better than Bedard. Try to relax.
 

Sens of Anarchy

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If you're going to be a dick maybe explain how you think Raffi "overvalues or overestimates Boucher on nearly every one of his posts about him". He said he had a good game and is poised to have a solid tournament. He didnt say he was going to be as good or better than Bedard. Try to relax.
Maybe you should but out. And don't call me a dick. Maybe you misunderstand. I didn't say he said that. I was just wondering if he valued his play/style of play over someone more diminutive but skilled like Bedard. Is that so awful?
I'm relaxed. I already said nearly all of them. He knows where they are.
There are 2 examples in this thread. Over in the Boucher thread its full of them. This is just my opinion. As Raffi has said I don't have a moderate clue about his skill set which I am waiting on the evidence for such a claim.
As far as debating.. if you look at this
"I would argue that the skill level between Boucher and Ostapchuk is similar. Boucher seems to have better mobility and is the more consistent and significant physical presence. Ostapchuk is the better defensive player."
In my view it overestimates Boucher's skill set ...and mobility and consistency when compared to Ostapchuk. Physical Presence regarding force of impact on a hit.. Boucher has the edge. Where does it end? We see Bedard is too high a bar.. kind of like a binary search you have to test the boundaries. I don't think he is nearly as good a player as Ostapchuk.. but I don't have a moderate clue about Boucher .. and likely many other things... like why I took the time to reply to your but in post where you called me a dick.
 
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BondraTime

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Ostapchuk I think is extremely easily the better prospect in every aspect aside from truculence and shot power, and even then Ostapchuk plays more than physical and engaging enough, and will have a role shutting guys down.

Boucher puts guys through the boards like maybe 2/3 guys in the past few drafts. That will have value in a lineup. Not an offensive or defensive guy, he’s there for the forecheck and physicality, and to possibly throw in a Chris Neil PP role every now and then.
 

RAFI BOMB

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Good to know... I'm curious , which of my comments indicate I do not have a moderate clue about Boucher's skill set?
For one, you didn't think he was going to be able to hit at the NHL level. You had serious doubts the ability of his physicality to translate to the NHL prior to preseason, which his preseason play proved otherwise. I don't know if this was you, but I know a lot of Boucher critics thought he was ECHL bound and had serious doubts that he could even play in the NHL, which again the preseason play clearly demonstrated that he is highly likely to be an NHL player.

But aside from that, it is partly a reactionary comment on my part because what you were saying is quite frankly insulting. You aren't suggesting my take is off, you are outright dismissing every thing I have to say, implying that I am delusional and then mocking me with that absurd trade proposal question.

Sure I am a fan of Boucher and I can certainly get bought up into the hype of what I think he could possibly become. But at the same time I am not sure if anyone has offered a better take on Boucher on here than me.

My most recent assessment was essentially this. Boucher has nice tools, he could be an athletic force and he could have an incredibly powerful shot if developed properly. The tools are really nice but there have been other players who also were an athletic force or had an incredibly powerful shot, and in those examples it didn't translate to high production. Therefore there is a possibility that Boucher ends up like them, where there is always that exciting "what if?" but that may never materialize.

That Boucher's primary constraint is his puck control. He doesn't have elite puck control and it limits his ability to generate offense. That he is more reliant on team structure to utilize his tools and get the most out of them. That he has a soft touch, and good vision below the dots, can make impressive passes and has a dangerous shot. That he tends to make better passes when he is stationary then when he is moving. That the constraints around his puck control require him to make quick decisions, and make simpler dangles or fewer succession of dangles in order to maintain control of the puck and not lose time and space by mishandling it. That he has a very powerful release and good accuracy but that he is more reliant on positional play in order to make that shot effective. That he has good hockey IQ, but lacks deception, which he could potentially improve upon with more experience.

He has some skill constrains and he also has some consistency issues. He can have some really solid moments but they aren't as frequent as they need to be. Improving his consistency would be an important factor in giving him a chance to be a top six forward. His skill set is good and will match well with top six players in a support role. I didn't see him as a play driver but I thought he would get chances to play with top six players and that his production would determine if he could stay in those roles. I argued elsewhere that he will likely need to develop strong chemistry with some high quality players if he is going to produce at a top six level.

My assessment, whole potentially overconfident at times, still seems pretty reasonable. I am acknowledging that he has constraints and that there are things that could keep him out of being a top six player. I acknowledged that while his tools could end up looking really good, that that wouldn't guarantee top six production. But also unlike a lot of Boucher critics, I have also given more serious consideration to both the possibility and the conditions under which he could be a top six player.

My take would likely come across as a lot more reasonable, if wasn't irritated by all the Boucher critics. Hearing all the criticism all the time leads me to take a stronger stance about the possibility of his upside. It leads me to defend a more speculative assessment of something that might happen under some very specific set of conditions and give the impression that it is my expectation that is is going to happen in an absolute sense.
 

BondraTime

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Boucher has the curse of his draft slot to blame for a lot of the criticisms.

Nobody could logically argue that he wasn’t taken to high, if he was a 2nd round pick, he’d still likely be getting some criticisms for the play the past year and a half, but they wouldn’t be as widespread or loud. A team like the Sens going through an 6+ year rebuild is going to be critical of their high picks.

He’s progressing very slowly, for sure. He’s shown his skating and physicality tht we knew was there, he hasn’t added to the parts that we had hoped he would show progression and improvements yet. That’s not a death knell, but it’s not good.

He’s going to be NHL player for sure, he is going to be given a chance in Ottawa without question, whether that’s in a role the Sens projected, which I personally think was a mistake in their part, or in a more minor role is to be seen in 3+ years.
 
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Sens of Anarchy

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For one, you didn't think he was going to be able to hit at the NHL level. You had serious doubts the ability of his physicality to translate to the NHL prior to preseason, which his preseason play proved otherwise. I don't know if this was you, but I know a lot of Boucher critics thought he was ECHL bound and had serious doubts that he could even play in the NHL, which again the preseason play clearly demonstrated that he is highly likely to be an NHL player.

But aside from that, it is partly a reactionary comment on my part because what you were saying is quite frankly insulting. You aren't suggesting my take is off, you are outright dismissing every thing I have to say, implying that I am delusional and then mocking me with that absurd trade proposal question.

Sure I am a fan of Boucher and I can certainly get bought up into the hype of what I think he could possibly become. But at the same time I am not sure if anyone has offered a better take on Boucher on here than me.

My most recent assessment was essentially this. Boucher has nice tools, he could be an athletic force and he could have an incredibly powerful shot if developed properly. The tools are really nice but there have been other players who also were an athletic force or had an incredibly powerful shot, and in those examples it didn't translate to high production. Therefore there is a possibility that Boucher ends up like them, where there is always that exciting "what if?" but that may never materialize.

That Boucher's primary constraint is his puck control. He doesn't have elite puck control and it limits his ability to generate offense. That he is more reliant on team structure to utilize his tools and get the most out of them. That he has a soft touch, and good vision below the dots, can make impressive passes and has a dangerous shot. That he tends to make better passes when he is stationary then when he is moving. That the constraints around his puck control require him to make quick decisions, and make simpler dangles or fewer succession of dangles in order to maintain control of the puck and not lose time and space by mishandling it. That he has a very powerful release and good accuracy but that he is more reliant on positional play in order to make that shot effective. That he has good hockey IQ, but lacks deception, which he could potentially improve upon with more experience.

He has some skill constrains and he also has some consistency issues. He can have some really solid moments but they aren't as frequent as they need to be. Improving his consistency would be an important factor in giving him a chance to be a top six forward. His skill set is good and will match well with top six players in a support role. I didn't see him as a play driver but I thought he would get chances to play with top six players and that his production would determine if he could stay in those roles. I argued elsewhere that he will likely need to develop strong chemistry with some high quality players if he is going to produce at a top six level.

My assessment, whole potentially overconfident at times, still seems pretty reasonable. I am acknowledging that he has constraints and that there are things that could keep him out of being a top six player. I acknowledged that while his tools could end up looking really good, that that wouldn't guarantee top six production. But also unlike a lot of Boucher critics, I have also given more serious consideration to both the possibility and the conditions under which he could be a top six player.

My take would likely come across as a lot more reasonable, if wasn't irritated by all the Boucher critics. Hearing all the criticism all the time leads me to take a stronger stance about the possibility of his upside. It leads me to defend a more speculative assessment of something that might happen under some very specific set of conditions and give the impression that it is my expectation that is is going to happen in an absolute sense.

I'm going to call BS on that first sentence. I've always thought that was his biggest strength and have said that more than once.
I said this year his release was improving. Which in my no clue assessment I thought it was .. over last year.. where when he had time he could rip it this year he was getting his shot off quicker. I'm not super down on Boucher.. and like I said try to find a post where you think I am. I am not. I think he is a powerful skater but I don't think his is able to move with a lot of dexterity or agility at speed he can use his speed and power to be disruptive and to be good on the wall.

Sorry I pissed you off. People tend not to recognize the value of a player like Boucher... and I don't think I am one of them but I also see his game as confined .. He'll be a good energy line player that can chip in with a goal or an assist here and there. I think he's be a good compliment to Kastelic as an example. Where they can apply pressure and be physical.. He has a lot to work on to be part of a checking line though but he can probably get there. I don't think he is good enough with the puck to play in the top 6 regularly.. Kind of like Joseph .. but he can fill in there and not be a negative.
 
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RAFI BOMB

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I'm going to call BS on that first sentence. I've always thought that was his biggest strength and have said that more than once.
I said this year his release was improving. Which in my no clue assessment I thought it was .. over last year.. where when he had time he could rip it this year he was getting his shot off quicker. I'm not super down on Boucher.. and like I said try to find a post where you think I am. I am not. I think he is a powerful skater but I don't think his is able to move with a lot of dexterity or agility at speed he can use his speed and power to be disruptive and to be good on the wall.

Sorry I pissed you off. People tend not to recognize the value of a player like Boucher... and I don't think I am one of them but I also see his game as confined .. He'll be a good energy line player that can chip in with a goal or an assist here and there. I think he's be a good compliment to Kastelic as an example. Where they can apply pressure and be physical.. He has a lot to work on to be part of a checking line though but he can probably get there. I don't think he is good enough with the puck to play in the top 6 regularly.. Kind of like Joseph .. but he can fill in there and not be a negative.
Well it's hard to tell, there have been a lot of Boucher critics and they have been very outspoken, so it isn't always easy to differentiate the ones that have something of substance to say from the ones that purely stat watch and are convinced that he is ECHL bound. Your comments here suggest that you aren't just completely devaluing him, so maybe I confused you with someone else.

I disagree with your assessment of Boucher having a dexterity or agility skating issue. I think if you remove the puck and have Boucher try to create skating lanes and d man using only their skating and stick to obstruct skating lanes, that there would be a very small percentage of players and player combinations, that Boucher wouldn't be able to find a way to maneuver around.

I think the issue fundamentally is a puck control one. If Boucher is carrying the puck and driving it into the o zone, he doesn't have the puck control to pull off highly complex dangles, or multiple succession of dangles over a short time span. It limits how he can maneuver around defenders, and it can create some hesitation with his decision making because he doesn't have as much confidence about his ability to maneuver through and around defenders. His powerforward style requires an assertiveness with his play, but that still requires the ability to make the right decision quickly and confidently. His lack of experience can create a hesitancy, it can lead to him not being sufficiently assertive with the puck or it can lead to him attempting maneuvers that are either unlikely to succeed or requiring greater puck control than he has.

That constraint on puck control limits how much of his skating that he can use. He could demonstrate more dexterity and agility with his skating, but it doesn't help that much if he gets around the defender but losses the puck in the process.

I think some people don't sufficiently make the distinction between his more limited puck control and his more higher quality shooting and passing. I don't see enough people give him credit for the quality of his shots and passes. He has a very soft touch and makes some really nice passes, particularly below the dots. I think that can create some polarizing perspectives around his skill because it becomes a bit of a matter of what a person focuses on. His lack of puck control is an important constraint and does make him seem less skilled, but his passing and shot are pretty skilled and create some potential for his ability to produce. But at the same time, that lack of puck control creates an additional constraint to his ability to generate higher quality shots and passes so it can't be simply disregarded.

I am reminded a bit of Tkachuk when I see him play. I remember watching Tkachuk's passing and vision and took a strong stance that there was some underappreciated skill there. I don't think people made the distinction between the quality of Tkachuk's pass and the quality of the shot by the player he passed it to. They saw the shooter not score and wrote off the pass in the process. This season those passes are leading to goals and people are acknowledging his passing ability.

I think Boucher's passing quality and vision are being overlooked. I also don't think he has much challenge if at all, handling making and receiving passes from elite players. So unlike other depth players who would look really out of place in a top six role, I don't think Boucher would. I think Boucher would look fine in a top six role but then the question would be looking at his production whether it would still make sense to keep him there.

I think in the future Boucher will be a player that can play on all 4 lines. I see the arguments that his offense is more constrained to a bottom sixer, and some of them make sense. I could certainly see the outcome being one where he isn't able to solidify a top six role. But I also see some ability there that gives me the impression that it is possible that he carves out a top six role. At this point I see things in his game that give me the impression that he will make improvements on his constraints and when he finds that consistency and puts his tools together that he will be a decent impact player. But at this point that is just me being purely speculative.
 
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Sens of Anarchy

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Well it's hard to tell, there have been a lot of Boucher critics and they have been very outspoken, so it isn't always easy to differentiate the ones that have something of substance to say from the ones that purely stat watch and are convinced that he is ECHL bound. Your comments here suggest that you aren't just completely devaluing him, so maybe I confused you with someone else.

I disagree with your assessment of Boucher having a dexterity or agility skating issue. I think if you remove the puck and have Boucher try to create skating lanes and d man using only their skating and stick to obstruct skating lanes, that there would be a very small percentage of players and player combinations, that Boucher wouldn't be able to find a way to maneuver around.

I think the issue fundamentally is a puck control one. If Boucher is carrying the puck and driving it into the o zone, he doesn't have the puck control to pull off highly complex dangles, or multiple succession of dangles over a short time span. It limits how he can maneuver around defenders, and it can create some hesitation with his decision making because he doesn't have as much confidence about his ability to maneuver through and around defenders. His powerforward style requires an assertiveness with his play, but that still requires the ability to make the right decision quickly and confidently. His lack of experience can create a hesitancy, it can lead to him not being sufficiently assertive with the puck or it can lead to him attempting maneuvers that are either unlikely to succeed or requiring greater puck control than he has.

That constraint on puck control limits how much of his skating that he can use. He could demonstrate more dexterity and agility with his skating, but it doesn't help that much if he gets around the defender but losses the puck in the process.

I think some people don't sufficiently make the distinction between his more limited puck control and his more higher quality shooting and passing. I don't see enough people give him credit for the quality of his shots and passes. He has a very soft touch and makes some really nice passes, particularly below the dots. I think that can create some polarizing perspectives around his skill because it becomes a bit of a matter of what a person focuses on. His lack of puck control is an important constraint and does make him seem less skilled, but his passing and shot are pretty skilled and create some potential for his ability to produce. But at the same time, that lack of puck control creates an additional constraint to his ability to generate higher quality shots and passes so it can't be simply disregarded.

I am reminded a bit of Tkachuk when I see him play. I remember watching Tkachuk's passing and vision and took a strong stance that there was some underappreciated skill there. I don't think people made the distinction between the quality of Tkachuk's pass and the quality of the shot by the player he passed it to. They saw the shooter not score and wrote off the pass in the process. This season those passes are leading to goals and people are acknowledging his passing ability.

I think Boucher's passing quality and vision are being overlooked. I also don't think he has much challenge if at all, handling making and receiving passes from elite players. So unlike other depth players who would look really out of place in a top six role, I don't think Boucher would. I think Boucher would look fine in a top six role but then the question would be looking at his production whether it would still make sense to keep him there.

I think in the future Boucher will be a player that can play on all 4 lines. I see the arguments that his offense is more constrained to a bottom sixer, and some of them make sense. I could certainly see the outcome being one where he isn't able to solidify a top six role. But I also see some ability there that gives me the impression that it is possible that he carves out a top six role. At this point I see things in his game that give me the impression that he will make improvements on his constraints and when he finds that consistency and puts his tools together that he will be a decent impact player. But at this point that is just me being purely speculative.
Its pretty easy to tell who said what on here. When you call someone out as hard as you did me you should have some very clear evidence. I certainly have never mention ECHL wrt Boucher as an example.

Again , not saying its bad, but I think you are over estimating him at this stage. It would be great for the Sens "IF" he was some combination of the next Brady Tkachuk in terms of playmaking and vision.. and Tom Wilson in terms of being able to play up in the lineup while bringing intimidation and physicality and a player that can create shooting opportunities. I see some improvements in his game over last year .. He is on a path to play in the NHL; how much he can develop will determine his role .. I will leave it at that.
 
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Big Muddy

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I said some time ago that if Boucher has a long development path, its OK to wait until he's been in the AHL for awhile before we start to get some real interest & focus on him. It seems like there's a lot of other things to focus on in the meantime in (NHL) Senatorland.
 
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God Says No

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I'm with @Sens of Anarchy. @RAFI BOMB seems to overhype singular tools. Nothing against that, but we have to take his posts with a grain of salt. A good example of that was his overhype of Kole Sherwood a couple of years ago. Which BTW is a very good comparison to Boucher.

It's great that Rafi finds positive nuggets about Boucher, but let's see how he produces in this tournament in totality.
 

bert

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Ostapchuk seems like the safest bet to be a good NHLer. He should be our Paul replacement.
Boucher has more upside, he has a skillset that can impact the momentum of the game. Ostapchuk is a nice prospect but he is going to be at best a 3rd liner. Most likely a 4th line journeyman.
 

BondraTime

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Whether Boucher puts up ppg or 1 point, doesn't really change much, he's not out there as a scorer, he's a physical tone setter that the US loves.

He should produce fine, I do think they end up with all 18 year olds + Hughes on PP1 shortly after the tournament starts, PP was struggling last night.
 

BondraTime

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Boucher has more upside, he has a skillset that can impact the momentum of the game. Ostapchuk is a nice prospect but he is going to be at best a 3rd liner. Most likely a 4th line journeyman.
Think Ostapchuk has more upside everywhere aside from physical play and shot power.

Both likely settle into bottom 6 roles, Ostapchuk would have a bigger role with shutdown and PK responsibilities, Boucher a physical forechecker

Ostapchuk has the best tools of any Sens prospect, and his toolbox is fantastic. Not many guys 6'3 that can skate, handle the puck, and see plays happen like he can. He's going to play a big role in the league for a long time.

Reminds me of Jordan Staal.
 
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Micklebot

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Boucher has more upside, he has a skillset that can impact the momentum of the game. Ostapchuk is a nice prospect but he is going to be at best a 3rd liner. Most likely a 4th line journeyman.
I feel like Boucher will become a Chris Neil type player, fighting ability TBD, I just don't see the upside others talk about but I'll be pleased if I'm wrong

Ostapchuk to me seems far more raw, I see lots of room for growth in his game, idk maybe I'm too optimistic with him but I see third liner as more likely than not.
 

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