Sens Lounge: "Pleeease won't you be.....my neighbour"

[BigRig4]

There isn't ever a bike lane on Bank street. It starts and ends just before and after the bridge. They messed up Wellington too but dropping a bike lane right in the middle of the road and permanent street parking creating more congestion. Bank Street used to have no parking during rush hour to open up those roads for optimal usage by cars.

They really need to eliminate on-street parking on bank from like 7am-9am Mon-Fri… it’s such a nightmare.

 

[Loach]

There isn't ever a bike lane on Bank street. It starts and ends just before and after the bridge. They messed up Wellington too but dropping a bike lane right in the middle of the road and permanent street parking creating more congestion. Bank Street used to have no parking during rush hour to open up those roads for optimal usage by cars.

In the glebe it still is no parking during rush hour. I went and talked with the bicycle lane people when they set up in front of metro. They had a petition for people to sign. Is was cute. Most of them lived in different 'hoods and rarely came to the glebe. They took up all the parking spots out front of the metro for tables and a tent, didn't pay and didn't have a permit. The best was when they double parked 2 SUVs in the bus stop to set up/pick up the stuff. When I asked if resources might be better spent on an effective public transit system...they just blinked at me and bobbled thier heads like baby owls. Half of them drove to it. Fckn numptys.

 

[maclean]

Bike lanes will always be a thorny issue. There is a definite argument for the "if you build it they will come" view, as no one will want to bike in between cars in an inhospitable environment. But then the cities go and spend suspiciously large sums of money on bike lanes that go nowhere or share space with the busiest streets, which does no good to either party. But the politicians can say hey, we spent this and this much on it, when very little thought was put into making it useful and often more is put into making sure the right company gets the contract for it.

 

[jbeck5]

The thing is that we don't have that here. We are talking about cities and not neighborhoods. What Maclean is describing is a symbiotic environment where you have many stores owned by many people within a community. What we have here is a system where you have to drive everywhere even if you live in the city to do shopping because we are not a walkable city. The transit system is terrible, the retail choices are terrible, and the majority of the restaurants are open a can, heat, and serve. European cities have suburbs too but even then they are designed a lot different than here.

This quote you made sums it up:


What you are talking about isn't even an ingredient in our recipe.

I agree transit is terrible...but there's no fixing that without bankrupting the city. Ottawa is too spread out for mass transit to be affordable and efficient. We've discussed this in previously in this thread.

You're not going to have a bunch of express busses going to every little neighbourhood every 5 mins 24 hours a day with 100s of destination to match the efficiency of a car without costing billions.

 

[jbeck5]

I specifically mention chain supermarkets. Their prices are standardised. The larger one I mention is as big and cheap as you're going to get, there's no magic store with half the price and twice the selection on the outskirts of town. It's not the same thing as what you describe. If anything you're more likely to have to pay more and get less choice outside the city proper.

Apologies if I wasn't clear. When I said Big box stores have cheaper prices, I wasn't counting metro as a big box store... They aren't nearly as big as super stores....when I think of superstores, I think of massive stores that sell everything....you know food and clothing and furtinure and pharmacy and garden center etc. those massive stores.

So I was saying massive stores like Wal Mart or super store will have much cheaper prices than chains like metro or Loblaws or sobeys, etc.

My point is these mega stores that offer the lowest pricing and have massive options for everything...are all in the suburbs..not downtown...

So if im looking for anything...recently was "ant bait" and "baby formula" were things we were looking for. A lot more options at a super store than a small shop or a medium size grocery chain.

It's night and day. Not even close.

 

[jbeck5]

Taking a quick look at Metro in the Glebe and the Metro on Innes their prices are identical as well as the sale price. Now, variety could vary but that can occur with any storeView attachment 1012998View attachment 1012999

The fact Walmart may have them at half price is due to their deceptive pricing tactics in how they attract customers.
.

I wasn't comparing metro to metro.

I'm comparing Bix box store pricing that is only found in the suburbs compared to the stores found downtown.

Apologies if this wasn't clear.

 

[jbeck5]

Not sure what that has to do with what he posted, but when done right, segregated bike lanes can and has lead to safer streets for bikers and pedestrians, all the while reducing car accidents and increasing bike ridership. It's not without its challenges though, accounting for deliveries, and parking can be tricky.

Half assed bike lanes suck though, ideally they are incorporated into the original design rather that retrofitted into a car-centric design.

I don't mind bike lanes provided the one way streets have 3 lanes.

Going up Kent to Parliament in the morning is a breeze..takes 3-4 minutes MAX. 3 Lanes and all lights are timed so the next lights go green a few second up. Traffic is always flowing.

Any car going left or right may have to stop to wait for pedestrians, but the middle lane remains OPEN and traffic flows.

The commute back is up O'Connor which has been 2 lanes + bike lane for a few years now is total chaos.. whenever any car makes a turn and has to wait for pedestrians, ALL traffic is halted.

It used to be 3-4 lanes and traffic flew. I could get to the highway in 3-4 minutes. Now it takes 15-20 minutes some days.

You NEED that third lane which is a straight lane that keeps traffic flowing.

 

[jbeck5]

So part of the problem is thinking that bike lanes serve only bicyclers. They serve everyone; getting a cars off the road because someone decided to bike or bus benefits the remaining cars, getting bikes out of busy traffic and into segregated lanes serves all the cars that would have been competing with those bikes for that same lane. Everybody benefits from a transit system that gives viable, safe options.

There's also lots of research out there that shows more lanes doesn't actually benefit traffic flow, things like induced demand result in a short lived improvement, followed by the exact same traffic issues you had before adding the lanes, and the reverse happens too, you take away lanes and people opt for alternative options, you end up with the same amount of traffic.

The question shouldn't be how many cars to bikes use bank street currently, it should be how do we design our infrastructure as a whole to meet the requirements of the population. That means looking at the entire system, not one street in a vacuum.

Maybe there's evidence when going from 5 lanes to 6 lanes on a highway...but going from 1 to 2 lanes(allowing people to pass) and 2 to 3 lanes (allowing flow of traffic to keep flowing when people are making turns) have very obvious benefits.

Once you have at least 3 lanes (one for left.one for straight. One for right) then I agree the return on your investment is very little...diminishing returns...

But under 3 lanes? Makes a huge difference to add a lane.

 

[jbeck5]

For future builds I would agree like all of the new developments going up in the outskirts of the city but we are talking about corridors that get people to and from parts further out and are not using those bike lanes. In Ottawa in 2021, the average cyclist traveled an average distance of approximately 20 minutes/ 4-5 kilometers (2.5-3 miles). This represents people who live in the inner core of the city who travel from Hintonburgh/Ottawa South/Vanier. The people driving would most likely be from further away as the proximity to downtown is easily accessible by public transit and wouldn't require paying for parking for those in that 5 km radius.

The reason people choose cars is because public transit has gotten worse since the implementation of the LRT. Even when the LRT is running 100% it is still not as efficient as the system before it. It will take generations before we have a transit network that actually serves the majority of people that makes it more convenient than driving. By then we will have flying cars and laugh at the thought human powered bicycles.

Keeping traffic lanes may not improve congestion but reducing traffic lanes only slows down traffic and leads to more congestion everywhere else.

This. The transit is a joke.

I used to be able to go to the end of my street, get on an express bus, and it takes me right downtown in 25 minutes. No transfers.

Now, they want me to take a local bus to Blair, then wait for a train and hop on the train...great...what about the way back? If the train misses my local bus by 2 mins...I have to wait 28 minutes for the next local bus?

Commute used to be less than 28 minutes total...


Imagine having to go from local bus to train to local bus...and then back again the evenings.. would be 3 hours a day of commuting when you could drive there and back in 50 mins combined.

 

[jbeck5]

What are you specifically talking about? We pave roads every 25 years?

They used to up until about 10-15 years ago.

My parents live off des epinettes in Orleans. A lot of that area was repaved between 2012-2018. I remember it greatly. The whole area was getting repaved. That area was built in 1980-1990 and so that timeline makes sense.

Now I live in chapel hill south....built between 1985-1995...so 5 years after des epinettes area...but it's been 10 years since they redid des epinettes so my area should have been repaved 5 years ago...but no.

I reached out to my political representative in our area and they said it's not in the budget to repave, but they did acquire this pothole filling truck to go around...the problem is the holes are beyond pothole filling...they need complete repaving.

I took all these pics on a walk the other week...even the grading is brutal. Low lying areas without drainage...basically ponds everywhere that are destroying the pavement...water goes underneat the road through these massive holes and then freezes and expands and cracks and the wholes get bigger.

We need to repave. Not just fill pot holes with soft puddy lol.

 

[jbeck5]

Bike lanes will always be a thorny issue. There is a definite argument for the "if you build it they will come" view, as no one will want to bike in between cars in an inhospitable environment. But then the cities go and spend suspiciously large sums of money on bike lanes that go nowhere or share space with the busiest streets, which does no good to either party. But the politicians can say hey, we spent this and this much on it, when very little thought was put into making it useful and often more is put into making sure the right company gets the contract for it.

There's also just no proper planning at all levels. Even for roads.

Going south on O'Connor and coming up on the other side of the highway...

There is no going right or straight for cars only left...

But because of that dumb bike lane that shouldn't be there, there's a good 30 seconds every minute or two where both directions of cars are halted for both crosswalks and bike lanes...

Why not eliminate the bike lane/crosswalk on the left and only have it on the right.

This way car traffic is always flowing...either from the north or from the west.

Having crosses on both sides while everyone waits for no one is a huge waste and pain in the ass.

 

[Stylizer1]

They really need to eliminate on-street parking on bank from like 7am-9am Mon-Fri… it’s such a nightmare.

It's supposed to be that.

 

[Stylizer1]

I agree transit is terrible...but there's no fixing that without bankrupting the city. Ottawa is too spread out for mass transit to be affordable and efficient. We've discussed this in previously in this thread.

You're not going to have a bunch of express busses going to every little neighbourhood every 5 mins 24 hours a day with 100s of destination to match the efficiency of a car without costing billions.

And to think we used to actually have a system at least during rush hour where buses did go to every neighborhood every 10-15 minutes. Didn't cost billions either.

 

[Stylizer1]

I wasn't comparing metro to metro.

I'm comparing Bix box store pricing that is only found in the suburbs compared to the stores found downtown.

Apologies if this wasn't clear.

You did in a past post make this argument though about living in the glebe and prices being twice the price.

 

[jbeck5]

You did in a past post make this argument though about living in the glebe and prices being twice the price.

Yes, due to the lack of big box stores, specifically.

These big box stores are only found in the suburbs...

Sorry if that wasn't clear.

 

[jbeck5]

It's supposed to be that.

Apparently people can get exemptions...I was pissed with all the parked cars on my commute...and the first thing my search brought up was that people can apply for exemptions where no parking laws don't apply to them...like damn...

 

[jbeck5]

I agree transit is terrible...but there's no fixing that without bankrupting the city. Ottawa is too spread out for mass transit to be affordable and efficient. We've discussed this in previously in this thread.


And to think we used to actually have a system at least during rush hour where buses did go to every neighborhood every 10-15 minutes. Didn't cost billions either.

Yup. That's the affordable alternative. Have express buses come by every 30 mins during rush hour without the need to transfer.

But this only solves commute transportation...not all day everyday transportation.

making buses efficient during commute is doable. Making them efficient 24-7 would cost billions and shouldn't be a goal for this city.

 

[Stylizer1]

They used to up until about 10-15 years ago.

My parents live off des epinettes in Orleans. A lot of that area was repaved between 2012-2018. I remember it greatly. The whole area was getting repaved. That area was built in 1980-1990 and so that timeline makes sense.

Now I live in chapel hill south....built between 1985-1995...so 5 years after des epinettes area...but it's been 10 years since they redid des epinettes so my area should have been repaved 5 years ago...but no.

I reached out to my political representative in our area and they said it's not in the budget to repave, but they did acquire this pothole filling truck to go around...the problem is the holes are beyond pothole filling...they need complete repaving.

I took all these pics on a walk the other week...even the grading is brutal. Low lying areas without drainage...basically ponds everywhere that are destroying the pavement...water goes underneat the road through these massive holes and then freezes and expands and cracks and the wholes get bigger.

We need to repave. Not just fill pot holes with soft puddy lol.

On the city of Ottawas website it states it depends on the rate of traffic and usage. A boulevard vs a Ave. vs a street vs a lane etc. all receive different levels of priority. My street is chewed up on one end and could use repaving but as a hole is not that bad. My neighbor Had a small sink hole at the end of his driveway a few years back, called the city and they were there in a few days to fill it. I needed a new green bin and within 3 days they dropped it off. I have found the city fairly receptive for certain things. Get a few neighbors to call and you might see some action or not. It be like that sometimes.

 

[Stylizer1]

Yup. That's the affordable alternative. Have express buses come by every 30 mins during rush hour without the need to transfer.

But this only solves commute transportation...not all day everyday transportation.

making buses efficient during commute is doable. Making them efficient 24-7 would cost billions and shouldn't be a goal for this city.

OCTranspo doing a poor job planning bus routes is nothing new. Off peak feeder buses to major routes always ran on Half hour intervals. It's those main routes that need to have more of and their frequencies of being on time. A big help would also fixing the train so it actually moves fast.

Also there is no population density around the LRT. That in itself is just dumb.

This is the city's top down approach.

 

[jbeck5]

OCTranspo doing a poor job planning bus routes is nothing new. Off peak feeder buses to major routes always ran on Half hour intervals. It's those main routes that need to have more of and their frequencies of being on time. A big help would also fixing the train so it actually moves fast.

Also there is no population density around the LRT. That in itself is just dumb.

This is the city's top down approach.

I agree a faster moving train would help...why aren't they travelling at like 120-140km/h between stops? Surely trains should be faster than cars...even non high speed trains. It's 2025, the technology exists.

But the local buses ARE a problem too.

I drive to work...I would 100% take an express bus. I am not taking a transfer. I've had enough experiences with the 95 bus waiting in Orleans for 25-30 mins for the next local bus(130 or 137)...don't want to be doing that every day. Will just drive instead. That, and the local bus just takes forever...could be 30 min ride depending where you are on that route...

So that could basically be 1.5 hours to get home instead of 20-30 mins by drive.

That, and the bus system isn't even much cheaper than owning a car.

Insurance is $120 a month...gas is $80 a month...$200 a month for car expense... A monthly bus pass is $140.

So it's costs me $60 a month to own a car instead of a bus pass...and that can be spread out over weekends and evenings too...but let's say I never drove anywhere except for to work...it would cost me like $3 a day to save an 1-1.5 hours of commute time per day...but it's less when you factor in some of the car expense is used up on evenings and weekends.

Would cost me $2 to save me 1-1.5 hours by driving instead of public transit per day.

 

[jbeck5]

On the city of Ottawas website it states it depends on the rate of traffic and usage. A boulevard vs a Ave. vs a street vs a lane etc. all receive different levels of priority. My street is chewed up on one end and could use repaving but as a hole is not that bad. My neighbor Had a small sink hole at the end of his driveway a few years back, called the city and they were there in a few days to fill it. I needed a new green bin and within 3 days they dropped it off. I have found the city fairly receptive for certain things. Get a few neighbors to call and you might see some action or not. It be like that sometimes.

Even then...so my parents bought off des epinettes in 1988...and that dip by the ravine wasn't even paved yet... Cars were getting stuck in the mud in the dip...my dad had a jeep Cherokee and would drive by the stuck cars.. So des epinettes recieved final paving around 1989-1990. Go check Google maps. It got repaved between 2012-2018 according to google map street view.

Now go to Orleans boulevard which is busier than des epinettes avenue.

My house is one of the newer ones built off Orleans boulevard in 1993. Many houses are several years older.

Orleans boulevard hasn't been repaved since then...so it's been like 40 years since they paved it despite being busier than des epinettes.

So what you said doesn't add up with reality.

I agree the city is quick with requests like garbage bin or small services like this. Always done very quickly.

It's the issues that actually cost money, like repaving a whole neighbourhood, which get neglected.

 

[Cosmix]

Bike lanes will always be a thorny issue. There is a definite argument for the "if you build it they will come" view, as no one will want to bike in between cars in an inhospitable environment. But then the cities go and spend suspiciously large sums of money on bike lanes that go nowhere or share space with the busiest streets, which does no good to either party. But the politicians can say hey, we spent this and this much on it, when very little thought was put into making it useful and often more is put into making sure the right company gets the contract for it.

They also put bicycle lanes right next to sidewalks! ABSOLUTE STUPIDITY in the so-called Planning Department!

 

[Cosmix]

Even then...so my parents bought off des epinettes in 1988...and that dip by the ravine wasn't even paved yet... Cars were getting stuck in the mud in the dip...my dad had a jeep Cherokee and would drive by the stuck cars.. So des epinettes recieved final paving around 1989-1990. Go check Google maps. It got repaved between 2012-2018 according to google map street view.

Now go to Orleans boulevard which is busier than des epinettes avenue.

My house is one of the newer ones built off Orleans boulevard in 1993. Many houses are several years older.

Orleans boulevard hasn't been repaved since then...so it's been like 40 years since they paved it despite being busier than des epinettes.

So what you said doesn't add up with reality.

I agree the city is quick with requests like garbage bin or small services like this. Always done very quickly.

It's the issues that actually cost money, like repaving a whole neighbourhood, which get neglected.

The City Bylaw people do not react to calls about neighbours' cats in my yard! Neither does my city councillor nor the mayor!

 

[Stylizer1]

I agree a faster moving train would help...why aren't they travelling at like 120-140km/h between stops? Surely trains should be faster than cars...even non high speed trains. It's 2025, the technology exists.

But the local buses ARE a problem too.

I drive to work...I would 100% take an express bus. I am not taking a transfer. I've had enough experiences with the 95 bus waiting in Orleans for 25-30 mins for the next local bus(130 or 137)...don't want to be doing that every day. Will just drive instead. That, and the local bus just takes forever...could be 30 min ride depending where you are on that route...

So that could basically be 1.5 hours to get home instead of 20-30 mins by drive.

That's a little fast. It's supposed to go 80kmh but I doubt it get half that on a sunny day.

 

[Micklebot]

I agree a faster moving train would help...why aren't they travelling at like 120-140km/h between stops? Surely trains should be faster than cars...even non high speed trains. It's 2025, the technology exists.

But the local buses ARE a problem too.

I drive to work...I would 100% take an express bus. I am not taking a transfer. I've had enough experiences with the 95 bus waiting in Orleans for 25-30 mins for the next local bus(130 or 137)...don't want to be doing that every day. Will just drive instead. That, and the local bus just takes forever...could be 30 min ride depending where you are on that route...

So that could basically be 1.5 hours to get home instead of 20-30 mins by drive.

That, and the bus system isn't even much cheaper than owning a car.

Insurance is $120 a month...gas is $80 a month...$200 a month for car expense... A monthly bus pass is $140.

So it's costs me $60 a month to own a car instead of a bus pass...and that can be spread out over weekends and evenings too...but let's say I never drove anywhere except for to work...it would cost me like $3 a day to save an 1-1.5 hours of commute time per day...but it's less when you factor in some of the car expense is used up on evenings and weekends.

Would cost me $2 to save me 1-1.5 hours by driving instead of public transit per day.

A faster moving train isn't going to help, the stops are too close together. The entire line 1 is only 25 km once extended, so going 80km/hr (current top speed) to 120 would only shave off a little over 5 mins from the entire line, and that ignores the time it takes to reach those speeds would be the same between stops, and the train that hits 120 would have to start

With 18 stops over 25 kms (once construction is done) it will be an average of 1.4km per stop, at 80km max speed, about 380m of that would be accelerating and decelerating, so your only gaining additional speed for 1 km per stop,

I agree the transfer is where you can make up the most time. I wish they had invested more in park and rides on the outside of downtown, a substantial park and ride at Orleans, Trim Blair and Montreal road would do wonders imo.


Owning a car vs bus...
~$1500/yr insurance
~$1500/yr Gas @ 15000km, 8L/100km, $1.20/L, cut that in half if you don't drive a lot,
~$1500/yr Maintenance (tires, brakes, oilchange, other service, ect) less if you do it yourself.
~$900/yr Parking (assuming you are driving to work and get a killer deal of $75 a month for parking)
~$6000/yr car payment until it's paid off (that's on a 30k car not accounting for interest or tax), if you amortize that over 10 years instead of the typical 5 year loan to account for needing a new car after 10 yrs, $3000

So, a conservative estimate of about 8k on a car a year, vs $1600 on a bus pass.

That said, many people will own a car regardless of whether they bus too, so many costs are fixed liek the insurance, it's really the incremental costs that matter, so gas (to and from places you would have bused) and parking. A bit less maintenance is required too.