Post-Game Talk: Sens 3 - Jets 2

[surixon]

I agree with most of your takes on here, but I think Toff has been mostly rotten with the exception of a couple games. No points in six games. Slow, unengaged. Not great defensively and hasn’t scored outside of against Anaheim and Columbus. Not a great passer, doesn’t make those around him better. He has to score to make any difference in a game. IMO

He's essentially the player he's always been and a player who has gone through multiple teams.

He's a streaky one dimensional goal scorer. Imo he wasn't needed.

 

[Atoyot]

I agree with most of your takes on here, but I think Toff has been mostly rotten with the exception of a couple games. No points in six games. Slow, unengaged. Not great defensively and hasn’t scored outside of against Anaheim and Columbus. Not a great passer, doesn’t make those around him better. He has to score to make any difference in a game. IMO

Yeah he's never been super impressive to watch, but he's always been effective at what he does. His ability to get quality chances out of nothing plays is really impressive. Him and his line was the only one getting anything done in the first two periods yesterday and that probably would have continued into the 3rd without the shakeup.

Looking up the underlying numbers from last night, however much value you want to put into that, matches my eye test. He led all Jets with an xGF% of 91.13.

 

[DRW204]

The solution to slow Toffoli is slower Perfetti? Hahaha!

Yeah toffoli didn't have a great individual game last night but he's done more in 10 gp than either of the previous top 6 options of Iafallo or Perfetti have done in the past 25-30 gp.

 

[Atoyot]

He's essentially the player he's always been and a player who has gone through multiple teams.

He's a streaky one dimensional goal scorer. Imo he wasn't needed.

Again, I don't think that's true. He's not flashy but he's effective offensively and defensively. Jets needed effective finishers and Toffoli is that.

 

[DRW204]

Yeah he's never been super impressive to watch, but he's always been effective at what he does. His ability to get quality chances out of nothing plays is really impressive. Him and his line was the only one getting anything done in the first two periods yesterday and that probably would have continued into the 3rd without the shakeup.

Looking up the underlying numbers from last night, however much value you want to put into that, matches my eye test. He led all Jets with an xGF% of 91.13.

that was really b/c of ehlers and monahan. ~90% of the xGF value comes from those two's shot-attempts. did tofolli have any great playmaking last night? i dont really think so. it was mostly ehlers being the catalyst of that line w/ tofolli being a passenger

 

[ecolad]

Good observations. Do you think he's moved off the 2-1-2 due to risk aversion as the playoffs approach? To me it doesn't make much sense as the 2-1-2 and the disruption it caused where major hallmarks of our success the first half. We went from denying time and space to allowing far too much of it. This group has never been amazing playing a 1-2-2 going back to Maurice.

I can only speculate that he wanted to further reduce risk whenever turnovers or stretch passes were catching us off guard and creating high danger scoring chances. As part of this, I`m also of the view that our defencemen were asked to be less aggressive in playing a role in the offensive zone (not speaking here of the occasional pinch), and, were asked to be less aggressive at tryin to disrupt passage through the neutral zone and across the blueline. The net effect of this of course was to allow teams easier entry/setup in our zone (which is playing directly to our D weakness, not strength).

 

[surixon]

Again, I don't think that's true. He's not flashy but he's effective offensively and defensively. Jets needed effective finishers and Toffoli is that.

His defensive metrics where pretty poor on his last two teams. He can finish bur imo he brings little else.

I can only speculate that he wanted to further reduce risk whenever turnovers or stretch passes were catching us off guard and creating high danger scoring chances. As part of this, I`m also of the view that our defencemen were asked to be less aggressive in playing a role in the offensive zone (not speaking here of the occasional pinch), and, were asked to be less aggressive at tryin to disrupt passage through the neutral zone and across the blueline. The net effect of this of course was to allow teams easier entry/setup in our zone (which is playing directly to our D weakness, not strength).

That was my thinking as well. It's had the opposite impact of what the coach wanted. He's not the first coach to think this way either. This was exactly Maurice's mindset and it lead to us hemerging chances.

 

[Atoyot]

His defensive metrics where pretty poor on his last two teams. He can finish bur imo he brings little else.



That was my thinking as well. It's had the opposite impact of what the coach wanted. He's not the first coach to think this way either. This was exactly Maurice's mindset and it lead to us hemerging chances.

His defensive numbers in Jersey was the same as Hischier, since coming to the Jets (small sample) he's had better defensive numbers than his linemates.

More than anything this just feels like a situation where we're losing, and people are looking for something that changed to blame it on. Toffoli isn't losing us games, even though his arrival coincides with some games lost.

We had a long stretch where we were getting chances and the finish wasn't there, Toffoli brings about as much finish as anyone we currently have.

 

[bustamente]

Bottom line both Monahan and Toffoli were brought here to strengthen a pretty solid team at the time and it just hasn't worked with both of them, I have no idea why they traded for Miller.

 

[DRW204]

Bottom line both Monahan and Toffoli were brought here to strengthen a pretty solid team at the time and it just hasn't worked with both of them, I have no idea why they traded for Miller.

yup. this is the crux of it. this team post-Feb 6th (Monahan's debut) is 23rd in GF/60 & 25th at 5v5 GF/60.

 

[Atoyot]

yup. this is the crux of it. this team post-Feb 6th (Monahan's debut) is 23rd in GF/60 & 25th at 5v5 GF/60.

I don't think we can blame them specifically. I haven't been a huge fan of Monahan but he hasn't been bad. Everybody kind of took a step back since then. Pionk went to absolute shit. Samberg in and out of the lineup.

I just don't understand bringing in Monahan and Toffoli and then sticking with 2 scoring lines. We have the talent to go 3 + an effective Lowry line. Connor-Scheifele-Vilardi has yet to work but they keep trying it. When we were dominant we had lines that were working that we immediately abandoned upon Connor's return and never really went back to. I don't blame Connor's return for that, it's about how the players are being used.

 

[DRW204]

I don't think we can blame them specifically. I haven't been a huge fan of Monahan but he hasn't been bad. Everybody kind of took a step back since then. Pionk went to absolute shit. Samberg in and out of the lineup.

I just don't understand bringing in Monahan and Toffoli and then sticking with 2 scoring lines. We have the talent to go 3 + an effective Lowry line. Connor-Scheifele-Vilardi has yet to work but they keep trying it. When we were dominant we had lines that were working that we immediately abandoned upon Connor's return and never really went back to. I don't blame Connor's return for that, it's about how the players are being used.

has the team been better since their acquisitions?
what do you think has been worse since their acquisition - the xGF & GF side, or xGA & GA?
if it's not them specifically, & it's a line-mate mix/chemistry issue, who wears the blame?
monahan has been solid, has he raised the 2nd lines scoring/defense etc. rates prior to his acquisition, esp. at the cost of a 1st+?

 

[Atoyot]

has the team been better since their acquisitions?
if it's not them specifically, & it's a line-mate mix/chemistry issue, who wears the blame?
monahan has been solid, has he raised the 2nd lines scoring/defense etc. rates prior to his acquisition, esp. at the cost of a 1st+?

Bowness.

Again I'm fine with Monahan, he's been fine. His defensive numbers haven't been better than Toffoli's (again, all small samples), and they were awful in Montreal. It's great to have a solid net front player, honestly Toffoli should be in his spot on PP1 and Monahan should be net front on PP2.

My issues are that we've had wildly successful lines that we've broken up to have lines that honestly haven't been great. At no point has Connor-Scheifele-Vilardi shown anything while Ehlers and Vilardi worked insanely well together. Namestnikov has been one of our most effective players and he played about 7 minutes last night. We can talk about the fact that their arrivals coincide with our losses all day but it's completely ignoring the fact that it also coincides with us putting lines together that have shown to be entirely ineffective well before Toffoli and Monahan were brought in.

 

[Atoyot]

The solution to slow Toffoli is slower Perfetti? Hahaha!

Perfetti has recorded a higher max speed than both Scheifele and Morrissey this season and is in the top 75% of the league. This is a recording.

 

[surixon]

Perfetti has recorded a higher max speed than both Scheifele and Morrissey this season and is in the top 75% of the league. This is a recording.

Perfetti is plenty quick enough when hes going. He just likes to slow the play down and is quite good at it.

The thing he needs to improve on is his first 3 steps and continued improvement on his core strength.

 

[Atoyot]

Perfetti is plenty quick enough when hes going. He just likes to slow the play down and is quite good at it.

The thing he needs to improve on is his first 3 steps and continued improvement on his core strength.

Exactly, his skill lies in slowing the game down and assessing his options. If you want him to go balls out all the time you're removing the part of his game that makes him effective.

 

[WpgSteve]

Exactly, his skill lies in slowing the game down and assessing his options. If you want him to go balls out all the time you're removing the part of his game that makes him effective.

It's his speed without the puck that's the problem. He can't get open or cover his man.

 

[blues10]

This team needs to get better at winning the draw especially on the pp and pk.

Yes, this a problem. Some say that faceoffs do not matter in a game but it appears otherwise. The Jets lost a faceoff on the PP last night and it was 30 seconds before we had puck possession back in the offensive zone.

 

[Atoyot]

It's his speed without the puck that's the problem. He can't get open or cover his man.

He has the best defensive numbers on the team. He can cover his man just fine.

 

[ecolad]

Exactly, his skill lies in slowing the game down and assessing his options. If you want him to go balls out all the time you're removing the part of his game that makes him effective.

I luv Perfetti and am anxious that he continue to get developmental opportunities with this org. I know many here will take this the wrong way, but I don`t think we should be surprised that this kid will take longer to find his way into a top line position than we hope.

Even at the time of his draft, there were some who noted that Cole seldom if ever "beat a defender" outside with speed, or, with quick lateral movement and quick hands. His game was much more cerebral, based upon excellent vision to read the ice ,and then to assess options as you say. In fact, he showed a remarkable ability to "anticipate" how the play would unfold when the other guys had the puck and to again react the best way.
He has used this cerebral approach to excell at every level but it may be taking a bit more time to figure things out in the fastest, most uptempo League in the world.

 

[ecolad]

He has the best defensive numbers on the team. He can cover his man just fine.

Yup. But he does not have separation speed and/or quickness that enables him to create space for himself. This is why he is taking longer to reach his potential than most would like imo.

 

[surixon]

I luv Perfetti and am anxious that he continue to get developmental opportunities with this org. I know many here will take this the wrong way, but I don`t think we should be surprised that this kid will take longer to find his way into a top line position than we hope.

Even at the time of his draft, there were some who noted that Cole seldom if ever "beat a defender" outside with speed, or, with quick lateral movement and quick hands. His game was much more cerebral, based upon excellent vision to read the ice ,and then to assess options as you say. In fact, he showed a remarkable ability to "anticipate" how the play would unfold when the other guys had the puck and to again react the best way.
He has used this cerebral approach to excell at every level but it may be taking a bit more time to figure things out in the fastest, most uptempo League in the world.

He needs a quicker first few steps and some more strength to hold up and shield the puck. But he's already shown plenty of flashes of great play and a good defensive base to boot. He's following more of a Schiefele path to date then a KC path.

If they develop him right they could have a true two-way top 6 talent. He really should be in the lineup. Most of his draft class can't create without help either but he came close to that his first 30 games when he drove our second line. He hit a bit of a wall the second half but I think he should have gotten another look in the top 6.

 

[GreatSaveEssensa]

Again, I don't think that's true. He's not flashy but he's effective offensively and defensively. Jets needed effective finishers and Toffoli is that.

Then he should start finishing or it’s a moot point.

 

[ecolad]

He needs a quicker first few steps and some more strength to hold up and shield the puck. But he's already shown plenty of flashes of great play and a good defensive base to boot. He's following more of a Schiefele path to date then a KC path.

If they develop him right they could have a true two-way top 6 talent. He really should be in the lineup. Most of his draft class can't create without help either but he came close to that his first 30 games when he drove our second line. He hit a bit of a wall the second half but I think he should have gotten another look in the top 6.

Yup, fully agree. But this may be a case where Cole`s development and ultimate success is directly correlated with who he plays with. I think he would benefit so much more by playing with players who were not following a strictly N/S dump and chase game to the letter.

 

[surixon]

Yup, fully agree. But this may be a case where Cole`s development and ultimate success is directly correlated with who he plays with. I think he would benefit so much more by playing with players who were not following a strictly N/S dump and chase game to the letter.

Sure, but that can be said about most everyone in the league. Quality of teammate is the most important factor for success, some successful teams like Carolina have figured that out. But yes he doesn't fit the N/S dump and chase mold which is why there is a night and day difference in how he looks playing with chip and chase guys on the fourth and when he plays with another possession player in Namestnikov.

I think he'll be able to consistently drive his own line in time but like most of our forwards would work best in a robust 5 man cycle scheme where he can use his smarts and deception to break teams down. I really wish this was the type of coaching we'd bring in. Imo we aren't coming close to putting in systems to get the best out of our talented players. They draft high iq players but run a bare bones basic offensive scheme.