Senators Revenue and Operating Income

[Sweatred]

Discuss all things related to Senators revenue and operating income.

In 2021 the Senators revenue drop to $67 million dollars on -$30 million of operating income (Statista).

Ottawa Senators revenue 2021 | Statista

Average attendance has dropped to <7000 fans.

2021-2022 NHL Attendance - National Hockey League - ESPN

Senators spending +$70 million - all nhl teams.

NHL Salary Cap By Team, NHL Cap Space | Puckpedia

How much do NHL teams make ? On average they never lose money. Pre COV the average league wide is $25 million. We’ve lost money every single year recently.

NHL average operating income per franchise 2005-2020 | Statista

 

[ColinM]

I'm surprised 2020-21 revenue was so high considering they didn't even sell a single ticket due to COVID.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Discuss all things related to Senators revenue and operating income.

In 2021 the Senators revenue drop to $67 million dollars on -$30 million of operating income (Statista).

Ottawa Senators revenue 2021 | Statista

Average attendance has dropped to <7000 fans.

2021-2022 NHL Attendance - National Hockey League - ESPN

Senators spending +$70 million - all nhl teams.

NHL Salary Cap By Team, NHL Cap Space | Puckpedia

How much do NHL teams make ? On average they never lose money. Pre COV the average league wide is $25 million. We’ve lost money every single year recently.

NHL average operating income per franchise 2005-2020 | Statista

Can’t read it unless I spend 600 bucks a year
Edit: can read some now
What is the median number,

 

[Golden_Jet]

Can’t read it unless I spend 600 bucks a year
Edit: can read some now
What is the median number,

I doubt the average is 25 million, seems high.
That would mean 800 million profit total

 

[Alfie11]

If the team is losing money with a bottom of the barrel payroll, then I guess the Sens better find a way to increase revenue.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Are you mixing up operating income

Which is profits after all expenses paid, salary, transportation, hotels…..

 

[Sweatred]

I'm surprised 2020-21 revenue was so high considering they didn't even sell a single ticket due to COVID.

Ya - I’d love to see a break down … I assume it was a combo of local TV, CDN/US deal and whatever they took from the league low income support plans and new advertising. That being said they lost $30 million (or $-30 of operating income) which puts the cost of the reduced season around $100 million for the Sens including all the escrow.

 

[ColinM]

Ya - I’d love to see a break down … I assume it was a combo of local TV, CDN/US deal and whatever they took from the league low income support plans and new advertising. That being said they lost $30 million (or $-30 of operating income) which puts the cost of the reduced season around $100 million for the Sens including all the escrow.

True, I'd also like to know how much of that is local tv vs. league wide tv as well as local advertising and licensing vs league wide advertising and licensing. That said Bettman said from the start the league would lose a lot of money that season so I'm sure it will be made up over the course of further seasons.

 

[Sweatred]

For this team to spend to the cap and break even (+\- $10 mill) on a shoe string management budget it needs to get into the $135-150 range of revenue.

The only area of growth is gate receipts or unprecedented loses from our owner that just don’t happen elsewhere around the NHL. Even the Panthers don’t lose that type of money.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Florida -43 million Operating income
Florida Panthers on the Forbes The Business of Hockey List
and allowed more fans obviously

 

[Sweatred]

Florida -43 million Operating income
Florida Panthers on the Forbes The Business of Hockey List
and allowed more fans obviously

Nice article - thanks for sharing .
They are the outlier … and Melynk may need to lose more to get this team to full cap. Full cap in 2021 prob costs EM more than what V lost. He’s something between a Fairy God Owner and crazy.

Melyn isn’t Viola - but Geener will probably lose more in 2022.

The neat takeaway is those numbers show that it cost the Panthers about $50 million to operate the club. If we want to get to $80 million in payroll we need to get into that $130+ Total revenue range.

Edit - or find a Fairy God Owner who dreams of losing $45 mill a year in StittsVegas.

 

[GCK]

For this team to spend to the cap and break even (+\- $10 mill) on a shoe string management budget it needs to get into the $135-150 range of revenue.

The only area of growth is gate receipts or unprecedented loses from our owner that just don’t happen elsewhere around the NHL. Even the Panthers don’t lose that type of money.

I still don’t care but please show your work with proper references to revenues and expenses if you are going to make wild claims and pass them off as facts.

 

[Pierre from Orleans]

This is a thinly veiled shit on Ottawa fans thread.

 

[Sweatred]

This is a thinly veiled shit on Ottawa fans thread.

Naaa… it’s a snap shot of our current revenue, operating income, ownership loses etc.

Each can make up their own inferences about the significance of league worst attendance or an owner who is losing $30 million at $70 million of payroll spending.

This is in no way like the multiple threads we have to rant about PD, EM, DJ etc.

 

[Sweatred]

I still don’t care but please show your work with proper references to revenues and expenses if you are going to make wild claims and pass them off as facts.

The material is above just read it.. or don’t and maintain your self proclaimed ignorance to the role of revenue and the NHL… as you say … “I don’t care”… That attitude reminds me of the the 20 year old who complains they can’t buy a house in Westboro. You don’t bother explaining to that 20 year old why they can’t buy the house.

It’s exactly inline with the 50/50 model the players and owners have worked out. Clearly an owner can scrape a bit from the ownership side and boost up the payroll side. Ottawa and FLD both do that spending more than 50% of their revenue on payroll but they also dig into their own pockets.

 

[JD1]

I still don’t care but please show your work with proper references to revenues and expenses if you are going to make wild claims and pass them off as facts.

Well, I think it's fairly straightforward. If we're going to kick out 80 m directly on payroll, you need to add on to that what it costs end to end to run the operation. I think revenue north of 130 is in the ballpark of what it is going to take to spend at that level.

And the only way we're getting there is via attendance

 

[Tuna99]

It’s weird you can be as bad an owner as Melnyck and still have a franchise who’s sale
Price today would be $750 million USD.

I’ve been reading article since Bryden was the owner about how crappy the team revenues are and here we are 20 years later and the team is worth $750 million and just applied to Build a new arena.

Nothing you hear about Ottawa Senators revenues and expenditures has ever been true. It’s the original fake news

 

[Sweatred]

It’s weird you can be as bad an owner as Melnyck and still have a franchise who’s sale
Price today would be $750 million USD.

I’ve been reading article since Bryden was the owner about how crappy the team revenues are and here we are 20 years later and the team is worth $750 million and just applied to Build a new arena.

Nothing you hear about Ottawa Senators revenues and expenditures has ever been true. It’s the original fake news

Every owner we had here went broke with this team … if Bryden was making money it wouldn’t have been sold it off for Pennys.

Did we apply to build a new arena ? Where ? That would be great news but I was under the impression we didn’t express any interest in building.

 

[GCK]

Melnyk financed about half the initial 127M.

Debt increased by about 94M by 2013.

Debt estimate by Forbes is currently 200M

All operating losses roll into debt.

So Melnyk has put about 68M into the initial purchase.

Melnyk has received 35M+ in expansion payments. These are outside club revenue.

Club and Arena valued at 525M.

525 - 200 - 68 +35 = 292M PROFIT.

Please stop telling us how much your buddy is losing as it’s crap.

 

[Sweatred]

Melnyk financed about half the initial 127M.

Debt increased by about 94M by 2013.

Debt estimate by Forbes is currently 200M

All operating losses roll into debt.

So Melnyk has put about 68M into the initial purchase.

Melnyk has received 35M+ in expansion payments. These are outside club revenue.

Club and Arena valued at 525M.

525 - 200 - 68 +35 = 292M PROFIT.

Please stop telling us how much your buddy is losing as it’s crap.

Sorry.. did he sell the club and realize those profits ? Obviously the franchise value has inflated. I'm not sure anyone will pay $500-700 US for this club with an old building that no one wants to go to or one that needs a new $1 billion building. Either way, these unrealized profits you talk about are obviously what Melynk justifies each year when he spends more money on payroll vs revenue than nearly every team in the league.

Most teams in the league and pro sports make money each year AND experience property+ franchise value inflation. You view that Melynk can lose $30+ a year because his franchise may have inflated a bit wreaks of entitlement.

So please stop denying the relevance of revenue to operating a pro sports team as its' crap. You can deny publications like Forbes all you want…

 

[GCK]

Sorry.. did he sell the club and realize those profits ? Obviously the franchise value has inflated. I'm not sure anyone will pay $500-700 US for this club with an old building that no one wants to go to or one that needs a new $1 billion building. Either way, these unrealized profits you talk about are obviously what Melynk justifies each year when he spends more money on payroll vs revenue than nearly every team in the league.

Most teams in the league and pro sports make money each year AND experience property+ franchise value inflation. You view that Melynk can lose $30+ a year because his franchise may have inflated a bit wreaks of entitlement.

So please stop denying the relevance of revenue to operating a pro sports team as its' crap. You can deny publications like Forbes all you want…

Forbes provided the Franchise value and the current debt. You can’t pick and choose which Forbes numbers you believe.

You are now shifting the goalposts from Melnyk is losing money which is a factual lie to Melnyk should be making an Operating Profit AND keep have franchise value skyrocket.

I also guarantee that if Melnyk wanted to sell at 525M the team would be sold.

 

[Sweatred]

Forbes provided the Franchise value and the current debt. You can’t pick and choose which Forbes numbers you believe.

You are now shifting the goalposts from Melnyk is losing money which is a factual lie to Melnyk should be making an Operating Profit AND keep have franchise value skyrocket.

I also guarantee that if Melnyk wanted to sell at 525M the team would be sold.

Na … I have zero issue with Forbes franchise value … no goals posts getting shifter anywhere. You also discount the money into upgrading the building, buyouts, etc .

You are vocally ignorant about revenue. There really is nothing to discuss… you want the Sens to spend like the big revenue generators regardless that we have the lowest(er) revenue in the league.

I do too … I just don’t wake up every day thinking it will happen.if you ever want to discuss and try to determine what type of revenue is required to fuel a good cap run with reasonable loses i’m more than intersted. But if it’s just you expecting EM to front $30-50 million a year while we stream games at home it’s a waste of time.

 

[SensFactor]

If this continues we will be the Quebec City Senators

 

[GCK]

Na … I have zero issue with Forbes franchise value … no goals posts getting shifter anywhere. You also discount the money into upgrading the building, buyouts, etc .

You are vocally ignorant about revenue. There really is nothing to discuss… you want the Sens to spend like the big revenue generators regardless that we have the lowest revenue in the league.

I do too … I just don’t wake up every day thinking it will happen.if you ever want to discuss and try to determine what type of revenue is required to fuel a good cap run with reasonable loses i’m more than intersted. But if it’s just you expecting EM to front $30-50 million a year while we stream games at home it’s a waste of time.

Forbes explicitly states than Arena expenses and debt is factored in. Red Herring.

 

[Sweatred]

Forbes explicitly states than Arena expenses and debt is factored in. Red Herring.

Wonderful - it’s irrelevant to anything I’ve said. Have a nice day. Let me know if you ever want to explore a genuine discussion about realistic spending by the Sens.