GDT: Senators @ Capitals | 12/29/22 | 7:00p ET

[YippieKaey]

a Sheary-sized Mantha putting up ~20g/~47pts per 82 games (and his other impacts)would be doing juuuuuuuust fine in the NHL.

Wouldn’t be making the same coin, but it’s laughable suggesting he would be struggling to stay in the league.

Yeah but what im saying is he wouldn't be putting up 20g/47 pts if he was Sheary-sized.

 

[YippieKaey]

Just because a player is a particular size shouldn't dictate how they have to play on the ice. If a player is effective, they're effective. Don't force them to change their game just because you expect them to play a certain way due to their size.

To use a couple extreme examples - imagine if people expected the 6'4" Joe Thornton to throw his weight around instead of focusing on slowing the game down and making plays. Or if people told the (generously) 5'9" Brad Marchand to play with finesse instead of being a miniature bowling ball? Should we panning the 6'5" Blake Wheeler for having his back-to-back 91 point seasons the "wrong way" by being a playmaker and transition threat rather than a power forward?

I'm not nearly as defensive of Mantha's performance as twabby (I think Mantha deserves to take some heat during his prolonged slumps, although he also deserves praise during his peaks). But I agree with his point that a lot of the disatisfaction towards Mantha's play is rooted in the style fans expect him to play, rather than actual poor performances. People expect something else from him, and get upset when they don't see it.

The first part is true-isch. If a player could be MORE effective if using their size they should. I played soccer which is not nearly as physical a sport. Im 6'6/230 lbs and if i didn't use that to push people of balls etc i got yelled at by teammates and coaches. It's really a basic sports thing, use all your assets.

And the three players you mention are clearly effective, whilst Mantha isn't really. And Thornton did throw his weight around AND made plays. And Marchand DOES use a lot of finesse in his game. Don't know enough about Wheeler to say anything.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Yeah but what im saying is he wouldn't be putting up 20g/47 pts if he was Sheary-sized.

His game doesn‘t even use the size he currently has….he would still have the same skill.

 

[YippieKaey]

His game doesn‘t even use the size he currently has….he would still have the same skill.

True in a way But his reach and long legs let's him get to, keep and chase pucks in a way that shorter guys with more hustle can't. So his lack of hustle is being rescued by his size.

 

[Ridley Simon]

The first part is true-isch. If a player could be MORE effective if using their size they should. I played soccer which is not nearly as physical a sport. Im 6'6/230 lbs and if i didn't use that to push people of balls etc i got yelled at by teammates and coaches. It's really a basic sports thing, use all your assets.

And the three players you mention are clearly effective, whilst Mantha isn't really. And Thornton did throw his weight around AND made plays. And Marchand DOES use a lot of finesse in his game. Don't know enough about Wheeler to say anything.

I’m lost. Who is talking about Thornton, Marchand, and Wheeler……with regard to Mantha?

 

[YippieKaey]

I’m lost. Who is talking about Thornton, Marchand, and Wheeler……with regard to Mantha?

They guy i was responding to, Hivemind.

 

[Ridley Simon]

They guy i was responding to, Hivemind.

Oh, the Queen Bee. Now that makes sense. No wonder you are arguing with wasted breath.

He’s on ignore for a lot of us. Not because his stances are all wrong, but because he’s impossible to try and talk to.

Just admit you “know nothing” and “are wrong” on whatever point he’s harping on…..and move on.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

True in a way But his reach and long legs let's him get to, keep and chase pucks in a way that shorter guys with more hustle can't. So his lack of hustle is being rescued by his size.

I think you‘re reaching a bit to take more issue than is warranted with a player you find distasteful because of his style. I really don’t care about him playing big. Give me a bit more Prod and he’s good by me. He’s good enough for 30/30 if we can get him into an ideal spot with quality players.

Maximize player potential by putting them in a position to succeed….and so far, Caps haven’t been great at that with Mantha.

 

[Hivemind]

The first part is true-isch. If a player could be MORE effective if using their size they should. I played soccer which is not nearly as physical a sport. Im 6'6/230 lbs and if i didn't use that to push people of balls etc i got yelled at by teammates and coaches. It's really a basic sports thing, use all your assets.

And the three players you mention are clearly effective, whilst Mantha isn't really. And Thornton did throw his weight around AND made plays. And Marchand DOES use a lot of finesse in his game. Don't know enough about Wheeler to say anything.

If Mantha were in a development league, or even still in a developmental part of his NHL career, I could totally agree with your first point. And if I were a coach in charge of trying to develop Mantha, I would try to get him to maximize the use of his size. But we're not coaches in charge of his development, and Mantha isn't in a developmental portion of his career at this point. He's 28, has nearly 400 games of NHL experience, and has been playing pro hockey for a full decade at this point. He likely is what he is as a player at this point.

Accepting that he's unlikely to completely change the way he plays the game, the point of the coaching and management staff on the team is to decide how best to utilize him as a player (and eventually if they should retain him and at what cost). Their goal is team-oriented, not oriented towards Mantha's development. Even with the perceived flaw in his game, Mantha is still a useful player. He is definitely effective, to the tune of being 0.57 point/game player since he arrived in Washington. His 1.91 5v5 points/60 since he arrived in Washington is wedged right between Connor Sheary (1.93) and Tom Wilson (1.89) during the same span, and is ahead of Backstrom, Oshie, and Strome. He's very much in line with being an effective secondary offensive threat at 5v5.

Is he as good as Joe Thornton, Blake Wheeler, or Brad Marchand? Of course not, the point was (as I mentioned) to use extreme examples to illustrate the concept. Mantha is who is he as a player, and that player is a useful 2nd line player.

 

[Jags]

And if I were a coach in charge of trying to develop Mantha, I would try to get him to maximize the use of his size.

How big a guy is isn't as important as how he got that way. Tom Wilson was always proportionately big, for example. So was Ovi. When Mantha first popped as an NHL prospect, he was basically as tall as he is now but 190 pounds. He was a beanpole growing up. Everything about his game was built on that foundation.

And he does use his size well, just not his weight. He's rangy, he utilizes the hell out of his reach advantage, keeps his feet apart to sustain hits and stay on the puck, and has key control of his long stride to make precise cuts for a big man.

Using your weight is a different thing because all we're really talking about there is hitting. He didn't have the body growing up to have that kind of sandpaper in his game, and teaching how to do that now -- not just technique, but also training the instinct of WHEN to impose yourself that way -- would be a long process that would likely curtail the other things he does well.

Not every tall person needs to be a sledgehammer. People need to drop this point with Mantha. It's incorrect. If he'd started putting that weight on when he was 15 or 16, maybe he'd have made more of a physical transition. Not gonna happen at 28.

 

[YippieKaey]

Oh, the Queen Bee. Now that makes sense. No wonder you are arguing with wasted breath.

He’s on ignore for a lot of us. Not because his stances are all wrong, but because he’s impossible to try and talk to.

Just admit you “know nothing” and “are wrong” on whatever point he’s harping on…..and move on.

That's not the impression i get from him. But apples & oranges i guess....

 

[Ridley Simon]

That's not the impression i get from him. But apples & oranges i guess....

Give it time.