Confirmed Trade: [SEA/NYR] Kaapo Kakko for Will Borgen, 2025 3rd, 2025 6th

[Pavel Buchnevich]

He's in his sixth season since getting drafted and has only hit 40 points as his career high. There are people bumping this thread every game as if they have no dignity because he's on pace for 46 points now.

Come on, have some self respect. Kakko might turn into a 60-70 point player, if things go well. But don't make this into something it's not. The dude didn't cut it with the Rangers as a top 6 forward. He did not earn 19-20 minutes that he's getting now for a bad team that lacks forward talent and doesn't have any mandate to win. He couldn't even handle 16-17 minutes with the Rangers. Any time he'd get a bigger role he'd go invisible and fairly find his way back down the lineup.

Yes, maybe he would've been better off playing initially for a team that sucked and he could've done nothing for a few years and they'd keep throwing him back out there, but that wasn't the situation. He did not show scoring talent needed to be anywhere near what he was hyped as at 2OA. Sorry, you aren't convincing me that force-feeding this guy who struggled to beat 40 points upwards of 20 minutes a game all of a sudden makes him some great player he wasn't three weeks ago when we had nearly 5 and a half seasons of evidence on what he was.

 

[bondra]

Come on, have some self respect. Kakko might turn into a 60-70 point player, if things go well. But don't make this into something it's not. The dude didn't cut it with the Rangers as a top 6 forward. He did not earn 19-20 minutes that he's getting now for a bad team that lacks forward talent and doesn't have any mandate to win. He couldn't even handle 16-17 minutes with the Rangers.

This is whats wrong and annoying with Hfboards. Kakko is producing because he plays in bad team which lacks foward talents. Other side is that player is producing because he is product of his linemate which you hear alot in Hfboards.

So basically Kakko is lucky that he plays in bad team with bad linemates and his not that good. But for example Kaprizov is underrated and amazing player because he can produce in that level with bad linemates.

 

[DavidpauseReinbacher]

After a year, the tables are turning again in the right direction:

Wheowwww

 

[TGWL]

Wheowwww

Laf had about 5 chances last night to get a goal and should easily be closing in on 20 rather than breaking 10 right now. Lafreniere can only blame himself these days. Maybe somebody can put together a hokey pokey, skating dance for him. You put your right foot first. You put your left foot next....

 

[LaMasquerade]

So basically Kakko is lucky that he plays in bad team with bad linemates and his not that good..

I might have missed the irony, but are you really saying that playing with bad linemates increases your production???

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

I might have missed the irony, but are you really saying that playing with bad linemates increases your production???

Playing 19-20 minutes does.

 

[LaMasquerade]

Playing 19-20 minutes does.

Sure, if you produce at all.

 

[nashnaidoo]

He's in his sixth season since getting drafted and has only hit 40 points as his career high. There are people bumping this thread every game as if they have no dignity because he's on pace for 46 points now.

People are bumping this because he's pacing for 60 pts over a full season in Seattle vs the 38 pt pace he had earlier this year in NY. Seems pretty obvious, despite your strange stat manipulation.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

People are bumping this because he's pacing for 60 pts over a full season in Seattle vs the 38 pt pace he had earlier this year in NY. Seems pretty obvious, despite your strange stat manipulation.

I’m not manipulating anything. You are the one that’s trying to take a 14 game sample. I don’t really care if it’s 46 or 60. It’s kind of the same thing. That’s the difference between being a middle six forward on a contender for many years vs. second line on a bad team with nothing to play for. Is he even playing particularly well for the minutes he’s getting? Is he playing better per minute or simply getting better situations?

It doesn’t seem to me that anything has materially changed with his play. He’s just getting better usage.

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

Playing 19-20 minutes does.

he is averaging 16:34 ATOI per game in Seattle, FYI.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

he is averaging 16:34 ATOI per game in Seattle, FYI.

Was referring to the last two games. Seems to be that he’s now taken on a bigger role after his first few games. Playing in literally every situation now. Didn’t do so with the Rangers because we had better options for that.

 

[elmaco]

Was referring to the last two games. Seems to be that he’s now taken on a bigger role after his first few games. Playing in literally every situation now. Didn’t do so with the Rangers because we had better options for that.

He's almost PPG since joining Seattle, i'm sorry but your bitterness is showing.

 

[BB88]

He's in his sixth season since getting drafted and has only hit 40 points as his career high. There are people bumping this thread every game as if they have no dignity because he's on pace for 46 points now.

Come on, have some self respect. Kakko might turn into a 60-70 point player, if things go well. But don't make this into something it's not. The dude didn't cut it with the Rangers as a top 6 forward. He did not earn 19-20 minutes that he's getting now for a bad team that lacks forward talent and doesn't have any mandate to win. He couldn't even handle 16-17 minutes with the Rangers. Any time he'd get a bigger role he'd go invisible and fairly find his way back down the lineup.

Yes, maybe he would've been better off playing initially for a team that sucked and he could've done nothing for a few years and they'd keep throwing him back out there, but that wasn't the situation. He did not show scoring talent needed to be anywhere near what he was hyped as at 2OA. Sorry, you aren't convincing me that force-feeding this guy who struggled to beat 40 points upwards of 20 minutes a game all of a sudden makes him some great player he wasn't three weeks ago when we had nearly 5 and a half seasons of evidence on what he was.

Well any of that hasn’t stopped the Rangers fans hyping Laf like he’s a franchise player

The most hyped 60 point player in the league

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

He's almost PPG since joining Seattle, i'm sorry but your bitterness is showing.

Being force fed points on a bad team and not even producing at materially better of a per minute or situation rate than with the Rangers. I have no bitterness towards the player. I am not going to let people whitewash 5 and a half years of what he is. He’s a used car. Just because you can get it started doesn’t mean it’s the best car on the market.

The Rangers have had players like this. Ryan Strome widely viewed as a bust. Comes to the Rangers and exceeds his prior success elsewhere. Turned around the “bust” label a little bit and has made a productive career out of himself. He hit a career high of 59 points with us (and paced for 72 in the COVID season).

But he was never what he was initially billed as. We saw his flaws and eventually let him walk in free agency. He was a low level 2C at his prime for us while we were rebuilding and trying to make the playoffs out of our rebuild. He never turned into that 1C or hybrid 1C/2C or a good 2C. Too many faults defensively and not a good skater, but he did artificially manipulate his reputation after being traded to a bad team.

Maybe Kakko will do the same, but I will die on the hill that he won’t become what he was billed as. Bad skater and doesn’t have high end scoring abilities. He might reach 60 or 70 points with artificially manipulated TOI and situations he couldn’t earn elsewhere (might want to acquire some other players because I don’t think he’s going to match up well as a top player against the best in the West), but that doesn’t mean the Rangers made some big mistake in moving on from Kakko (the only small mistake was they could’ve traded him when his value was higher) or Kakko is on his way to breaking out. He’s still fundamentally the same player he was three weeks ago. Not going to stand for the whitewashing of what he is.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Well any of that hasn’t stopped the Rangers fans hyping Laf like he’s a franchise player

The most hyped 60 point player in the league

I swear Rangers fans don’t even hype Lafreniere. We react against all of you that call him a bust. If some of you didn’t try to call him a bust we wouldn’t feel the need to speak up about his successes.

Right now we’re back to a period of time where people call him a bust because the team had a terrible second 20 games of a season. Not being able to see through the clouds that the whole team was struggling and it’s probably best to not extrapolate large conclusions from every player who was struggling seems like something you fell for.

He’s back to playing well the last couple of games, as the team has been getting better results. Funny how that works that 23 year olds have highs and lows and they might not be able to steer the ship and might tend to go as the team goes.

I don’t know what Lafreniere will score this year. His numbers have gone up every year of his career so far. Hasn’t had any real opportunity to play in the top 6 (unlike Kakko who blew his chances) until last year where he immediately took it and ran.

I am pretty confident though that he will probably hit 70, 80 points, at least, eventually. Too much scoring ability not to now that he’s adjusted to the league. Finns may struggle to accept this, but one of the reasons we committed to Lafreniere and not Kakko is that for all Kakko’s solidity (he’s not a bad player, by any means) he never showed what he was billed as. He was as vanilla as they come once he’d get into the offensive zone. He played like a grinder. Lafreniere shows traits of a first liner.

It’s taken a little while to see that level due to low usage his first couple of years, adjustment to the league, and now a disastrous spell the team just went through, but the scoring ability is very real. Don’t know how anyone could claim to watch the player and not see a player who will score a lot in this league. He’s probably the second biggest offensive driver of the forwards at this point after Panarin.

 

[LOFIN]

He was as vanilla as they come once he’d get into the offensive zone. He played like a grinder. Lafreniere shows traits of a first liner.

Because that's what the Rangers wanted him to be. And Kakko, unlike Laf it sometimes feels like, is actually coachable.

You tell your young players to play like 3rd line grinders and deploy them as such, that's what they will become. And maybe now Kakko might actually become something different in Seattle.

 

[elmaco]

Being force fed points on a bad team and not even producing at materially better of a per minute or situation rate than with the Rangers. I have no bitterness towards the player. I am not going to let people whitewash 5 and a half years of what he is. He’s a used car. Just because you can get it started doesn’t mean it’s the best car on the market.

The Rangers have had players like this. Ryan Strome widely viewed as a bust. Comes to the Rangers and exceeds his prior success elsewhere. Turned around the “bust” label a little bit and has made a productive career out of himself. He hit a career high of 59 points with us (and paced for 72 in the COVID season).

But he was never what he was initially billed as. We saw his flaws and eventually let him walk in free agency. He was a low level 2C at his prime for us while we were rebuilding and trying to make the playoffs out of our rebuild. He never turned into that 1C or hybrid 1C/2C or a good 2C. Too many faults defensively and not a good skater, but he did artificially manipulate his reputation after being traded to a bad team.

Maybe Kakko will do the same, but I will die on the hill that he won’t become what he was billed as. Bad skater and doesn’t have high end scoring abilities. He might reach 60 or 70 points with artificially manipulated TOI and situations he couldn’t earn elsewhere (might want to acquire some other players because I don’t think he’s going to match up well as a top player against the best in the West), but that doesn’t mean the Rangers made some big mistake in moving on from Kakko (the only small mistake was they could’ve traded him when his value was higher) or Kakko is on his way to breaking out. He’s still fundamentally the same player he was three weeks ago. Not going to stand for the whitewashing of what he is.

Oh man, artificially manipulated TOI.... what the **** am i reading. I have no words, is McDavid too getting artificially manipulated TOI? That's why he plays so much and is considered the best?

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Oh man, artificially manipulated TOI.... what the **** am i reading. I have no words, is McDavid too getting artificially manipulated TOI? Thats why hes the best player?

You’re essentially making my point for me with the edit.

Not every player who gets big ice time has it artificially manipulated. McDavid deserves 20 or more minutes per game because he’s the best player in the league.

Kakko was playing like 14-15 on a middling team (maybe one with a lot of talent and one that’ll rise as the season goes on), but how does that compute? Raising his TOI (at least 2-3 and maybe 5+ if the last few is indicative) and his situations (was PP2, and essentially never saw the ice otherwise when not ES) when he didn’t exactly “earn” a promotion shows it’s artificial.

 

[elmaco]

You’re essentially making my point for me with the edit.

Not every player who gets big ice time has it artificially manipulated. McDavid deserves 20 or more minutes per game because he’s the best player in the league.

Kakko was playing like 14-15 on a middling team (maybe one with a lot of talent and one that’ll rise as the season goes on), but how does that compute? Raising his TOI (at least 2-3 and maybe 5+ if the last few is indicative) and his situations (was PP2, and essentially never saw the ice otherwise when not ES) when he didn’t exactly “earn” a promotion shows it’s artificial.

Just an awful take, seriously. Fake TOI and fake points, is this a new thing?

 

[LOFIN]

Raising his TOI (at least 2-3 and maybe 5+ if the last few is indicative) and his situations (was PP2, and essentially never saw the ice otherwise when not ES) when he didn’t exactly “earn” a promotion shows it’s artificial.

You could frame this and hang it on to the Rangers locker room, because that's how exactly they have treated their young players and still do to this day. And then wonder, why they are not becoming difference makers.

This is the whole issue with the Rangers deployment of their young talent, and why the organization has failed to develop forward talent outside of Kreider and Buchnevich for the last 10-15 years.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

You could frame this and hang it on to the Rangers locker room, because that's how exactly they have treated their young players and still do to this day. And then wonder, why they are not becoming difference makers.

This is the whole issue with the Rangers deployment of their young talent, and why the organization has failed to develop forward talent outside of Kreider and Buchnevich for the last 10-15 years.

Oh stop, man. You're a fan of the team. I get you're Finnish and you may root a little more for Kakko, but I respect that you know the team and I shouldn't treat you as if you're simply unaware of what's going on.

Kakko got his chances. Each time he didn't do enough to keep anything. Lafreniere did better in that respect than Kakko. Frankly, Cuylle looks like he's probably on course to outshine Kakko maybe as soon as this season (we'll see as he's slowed down a little, Lavi is back to taking him off the PP, and Kakko now is playing a huge role in Seattle). Kakko hasn't even been able to keep up in the "younger wingers who need more opportunity" category on the Rangers. He beat out whatever Kravtsov was, but that's pretty much it.

Of course I agree that the team has a problem with that they defer too much to the vets (how about Lavi ditching the successful PP1 we saw for a bunch of games after they didn't convert early on last night for the "old gang back together" with Mika whiffing on one timers from the Ovi spot and Kreider standing around holding hands with the goaltender?), but I don't think Kakko is that cause to lament that point (at least not right now). Maybe things would've been different if were like the Devils or Senators when we drafted Kakko, but at this point I don't think anything was really changing. Is he even better right now than like a Reilly Smith? To me it's a serious question. He is what he is and he wasn't going to earn or deserve more, which is why it came to a point where he had to be traded (of course he's a solid player for the middle six, but that's a lot of salary for that roster slot, he probably wanted to go elsewhere, and we're going to need Perreault, Othmann, Berard ELC's in that spot as opposed to 3M+).

 

[LBpuzzels]

We essentially traded a middle six winger for a 4/5 defenseman. Seems like both teams are happy with the player they got back.

Kakko has more years of team control, while the 3rd and 5th going back might equalize that.

I know everyone in this thread is only talking about Kakko, and I'd even say that there's more upside in the trade for Seattle. But I don't think this is as lopsided of a trade as people initially claimed (myself included).

I don't completely disagree with you but he should be your 3rd pair RHD (not exactly their biggest need) and if they are playing him on the 2nd pair (especially if they are going to re-sign him) than you are talking about boxing out Schneider from your top 4 and unless you are trading Schneider for a big piece, I would submit you are again mishandling a good prospect in Schneider

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

I don't completely disagree with you but he should be your 3rd pair RHD (not exactly their biggest need) and if they are playing him on the 2nd pair (especially if they are going to re-sign him) than you are talking about boxing out Schneider from your top 4 and unless you are trading Schneider for a big piece, I would submit you are again mishandling a good prospect in Schneider

Since the Trouba trade, Schneider is playing :43 seconds less per game than Borgen. They are 4th and 5th for defensemen TOI in that span (and they aren’t going to be much higher when you have Fox as your 1D). I also think that Schneider will be the 2RD over time. Borgen is paired with Miller right now, and his pair is going to be the second pair. Don’t think there’s any type of concern to see here. Just the way the pairs are structured right now sees Borgen play a shift more per game at the moment.