Proposal: Seattle & Montreal: Guhle + Calgary 1st for Matty Beniers + 2nd (Toronto)

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Are you implying that Beniers isn't getting offensive opportunities and therefor is the reason why he isn't producing? Because as I recall, he's been on PP1 for the entirety of the season and is getting prime offensive deployment at 5v5 as well.

By your own logic, Kakko is pacing for 54 points/82 games in Seattle. Schwartz is pacing for 47 points/82 games. Beniers is pacing for 45 points/82 games. Both Beniers linesmates are currently outproducing him despite Schwartz not getting PP1 minutes.

Caufield is now, but he wasn't back in the day.

I'm saying that Beniers is producing at roughly the same rate at ES as 22 year old Suzuki did, despite having arguably worse wingers. I also know that being one of 4 or 5 decent options on the PP1 doesn't mean you've got the puck on your stick as often as you would if the other options were depth guys playing above their paygrade due to injuries.

And Caufield was still pretty good then, even if he was still adjusting.
 
Suzuki has improved statistically every single season he’s been in the league. Beniers after a strong first 10 games and then strong rookie season has not improved on it since 2 seasons after. Thats not an end all be all but YOU guys are making the comparisons

it doesn’t really matter if he is as good as Suzuki at 22 or not (he isn’t ), progression is wildly different among players. I never thought Suzuki was gonna be this good back then. It’s totally a moot point
 
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I'm saying that Beniers is producing at roughly the same rate at ES as 22 year old Suzuki did, despite having arguably worse wingers. I also know that being one of 4 or 5 decent options on the PP1 doesn't mean you've got the puck on your stick as often as you would if the other options were depth guys playing above their paygrade due to injuries.

And Caufield was still pretty good then, even if he was still adjusting.
I genuinely don't know where I can fact check this, but I don't think you're correct on Caufield being one of his most common wingers that season. Maybe once St. Louis took over, but that was for like 30 games. The Habs were complete ass that year I really don't think quality of teammates/linemates is a great argument at all
 
I feel like the Habs need to target an actual 2C, you don't want to bring Demidov on and say here you go, you're playing with 40 point a year two way C sensation, Matty Beniers

Beniers has far from shown anything to show me he's a second line center, at least not since his rookie year. Guhle meanwhile makes the whole Habs D just click so well and will be a playoff warrior

Matty Bernies is not who we should target, we tried these fancy moves with Dach and Newhook and none are the 2Cs we seek

We might as well spend, we've got the resources to overpay and actually land a real 2C
 
I genuinely don't know where I can fact check this, but I don't think you're correct on Caufield being one of his most common wingers that season. Maybe once St. Louis took over, but that was for like 30 games. The Habs were complete ass that year I really don't think quality of teammates/linemates is a great argument at all


Look at the Line Combinations. Overall, Suzuki scored more with Caufield on the ice than anyone else.

Natural Stat Trick also shows they played 775 minutes together in 67 games. Overall, Suzuki only played 245 minutes all season without one of Caufield/Anderson/Toffoli/Hoffman.

And the Habs were complete ass because almost everyone got hurt. Only 3 guys played 70+ games that season, with Suzuki being the only guy to play all 82. Toffoli and Drouin didn't even play half the season. Dvorak and Gallagher only played 56 games. But, they all spent time playing with Suzuki while they were healthy and that's when he scored a lot of his points.
 

Look at the Line Combinations. Overall, Suzuki scored more with Caufield on the ice than anyone else.

Natural Stat Trick also shows they played 775 minutes together in 67 games. Overall, Suzuki only played 245 minutes all season without one of Caufield/Anderson/Toffoli/Hoffman.

And the Habs were complete ass because almost everyone got hurt. Only 3 guys played 70+ games that season, with Suzuki being the only guy to play all 82. Toffoli and Drouin didn't even play half the season. Dvorak and Gallagher only played 56 games. But, they all spent time playing with Suzuki while they were healthy and that's when he scored a lot of his points.
Thing is Caufield aside (who was a rookie), none of these guys are better than McCann, Schwartz, Eberle, Bjorkstrand, Tolvanen, Burakovski, etc.

This is really not an argument. They both played with similar levels of talent and Suzuki showed he was better than anyone else on his team. Beniers has not done that. That's it, there is nothing else to it.

edit: Do you really believe that Matty Beniers scores 60 points this year if his team has more injuries? It seems like this is what you are arguing.

Also, Suzuki would've had MORE points if his good linemates had been less injured/traded that year. Not less. He was the team's one C and number one offensive player regardless of injuries.
 
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Thing is Caufield aside (who was a rookie), none of these guys are better than McCann, Schwartz, Eberle, Bjorkstrand, Tolvanen, Burakovski, etc.

This is really not an argument. They both played with similar levels of talent and Suzuki showed he was better than anyone else on his team. Beniers has not done that. That's it, there is nothing else to it.

edit: Do you really believe that Matty Beniers scores 60 points this year if his team has more injuries? It seems like this is what you are arguing.

Also, Suzuki would've had MORE points if his good linemates had been less injured/traded that year. Not less. He was the team's one C and number one offensive player regardless of injuries.
By his own logic if we take out Makar, Nischuskin, Necas and Drouin from Colorado MacKinnon should be a 200 points player because all of his teammates would suck and funnel the chances to him.
 
Thing is Caufield aside (who was a rookie), none of these guys are better than McCann, Schwartz, Eberle, Bjorkstrand, Tolvanen, Burakovski, etc.

This is really not an argument. They both played with similar levels of talent and Suzuki showed he was better than anyone else on his team. Beniers has not done that. That's it, there is nothing else to it.

I'm not saying they are better. I'm saying that the fact that they are pretty comparable seems to undercut the claims that Suzuki was "on an island" and that every player Suzuki played with was individually terrible because the team was complete ass due to all the injuries.

I agree Suzuki showed he could handle the increased responsibilities as the team crumbled around him, but I also think he got an increased number of chances to show it because so many other guys were out of the lineup. I also don't know whether or not Suzuki still leads the team in scoring if everyone doesn't get hurt, and if he still does, I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be such a big gap if he's not playing 15+ more games than anyone else. So the arguments trying to put him on a totally different level than Beniers at 22 don't really seem convincing to me. The fact that they put up a similar number of ES points with pretty similar caliber linemates tells me they are probably pretty similar as 22 year olds.
 
By his own logic if we take out Makar, Nischuskin, Necas and Drouin from Colorado MacKinnon should be a 200 points player because all of his teammates would suck and funnel the chances to him.

No, by my logic, when there's so many injuries and/or no other options, players can get pushed into roles that they might not be in if everyone is healthy or there's competition for the spot, allowing them more opportunities to show what they can do.

And the Avs already run almost everything through MacKinnon when he's on the ice, so he's not getting more opportunities no matter who gets hurt. But if MacKinnon gets hurt, then someone like Kadri can slide up the lineup and get more chances and put up career best numbers as a result.
 
No, by my logic, when there's so many injuries and/or no other options, players can get pushed into roles that they might not be in if everyone is healthy or there's competition for the spot, allowing them more opportunities to show what they can do.

And the Avs already run almost everything through MacKinnon when he's on the ice, so he's not getting more opportunities no matter who gets hurt. But if MacKinnon gets hurt, then someone like Kadri can slide up the lineup and get more chances and put up career best numbers as a result.
That’s fair. Wouldn’t you agree though that if Suzuki got hurt the next guy in line to take the 1C spot wouldn’t have been able to fill his production despite getting the same opportunities?

If so, can we agree that both Suzuki and MacKinnon have been and still are line drivers? And if they are able to do that (especially Suzuki at 22) wouldn’t it also be fair to say that despite having the same opportunities than Suzuki had at 22 (best teammates on the team and PP1), Beniers isn’t able or capable to be a line driver & PP1 driver and one of the (many I suppose) reason why they have do it by committee as you previously mentioned?

If we can agree on the points made above, wouldn’t it also be fair to say that Beniers right now isn’t as good as Suzuki was at 22 and finally close that debate?
 
That’s fair. Wouldn’t you agree though that if Suzuki got hurt the next guy in line to take the 1C spot wouldn’t have been able to fill his production despite getting the same opportunities?

If so, can we agree that both Suzuki and MacKinnon have been and still are line drivers? And if they are able to do that (especially Suzuki at 22) wouldn’t it also be fair to say that despite having the same opportunities than Suzuki had at 22 (best teammates on the team and PP1), Beniers isn’t able or capable to be a line driver & PP1 driver and one of the (many I suppose) reason why they have do it by committee as you previously mentioned?

If we can agree on the points made above, wouldn’t it also be fair to say that Beniers right now isn’t as good as Suzuki was at 22 and finally close that debate?

Absolutely, I would agree to that. Who would the next guy even be, Jake Evans? I don't think there's any question that Evans definitely isn't going to fill that role as well as Suzuki did.

I would also agree that Suzuki is able to drive the play, but he shouldn't be compared to MacKinnon anytime soon. I don't agree Suzuki and Beniers have had the same opportunities, despite it seeming like it on the surface.

Since we can't agree on all the points, wouldn't it also be fair to say that their 22 year old versions are probably close enough where there is no right answer, but Beniers needs to show more to keep pace with what Suzuki has done since 22?
 
Absolutely, I would agree to that. Who would the next guy even be, Jake Evans? I don't think there's any question that Evans definitely isn't going to fill that role as well as Suzuki did.

I would also agree that Suzuki is able to drive the play, but he shouldn't be compared to MacKinnon anytime soon. I don't agree Suzuki and Beniers have had the same opportunities, despite it seeming like it on the surface.

Since we can't agree on all the points, wouldn't it also be fair to say that their 22 year old versions are probably close enough where there is no right answer, but Beniers needs to show more to keep pace with what Suzuki has done since 22?
Are you sure? Because less than 20 points separate MacKinnon’s 22 years old season to Suzuki’s - Which is a smaller gap than Suzuki and Beniers. Same goes for their 25 years old season (if Suzuki continue at a similar pace) So wouldn’t it be fair to say they are close enough where there is no right answer, but Suzuki needs to show more to keep pace with what MacKinnon has done onward?

Are they close enough that there is no right answer or does Beniers need to show more to be compared to a guy like Suzuki? Which is it?
 
Are you sure? Because less than 20 points separate MacKinnon’s 22 years old season to Suzuki’s - Which is a smaller gap than Suzuki and Beniers. Same goes for their 25 years old season (if Suzuki continue at a similar pace) So wouldn’t it be fair to say they are close enough where there is no right answer, but Suzuki needs to show more to keep pace with what MacKinnon has done onward?

Are they close enough that there is no right answer or does Beniers need to show more to be compared to a guy like Suzuki? Which is it?

Are you sure? At 22, MacKinnon had 97 points in 74 games and should have won the Hart.

I think it's that their 22 year old seasons are probably close enough where there's no obviously right answer about who is actually better yet, but 23 year old Beniers will need to show more if he wants that to still be true when he's compared to 23 year old Suzuki.
 
I'm not saying they are better. I'm saying that the fact that they are pretty comparable seems to undercut the claims that Suzuki was "on an island" and that every player Suzuki played with was individually terrible because the team was complete ass due to all the injuries.

I agree Suzuki showed he could handle the increased responsibilities as the team crumbled around him, but I also think he got an increased number of chances to show it because so many other guys were out of the lineup. I also don't know whether or not Suzuki still leads the team in scoring if everyone doesn't get hurt, and if he still does, I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be such a big gap if he's not playing 15+ more games than anyone else. So the arguments trying to put him on a totally different level than Beniers at 22 don't really seem convincing to me. The fact that they put up a similar number of ES points with pretty similar caliber linemates tells me they are probably pretty similar as 22 year olds.
First bolded is simply false. Anyone who watched the habs during that season would tell you that Suzuki was the number one center from the get go, and he was going to get all the opportunities no matter what. As a matter of fact, he was already their first line center at 21 and during their stanley cup final run. Management even let Danault go because they were already planning to give Suzuki all the responsibilities. He won all opportunities through his stellar play, never because of injuries.

As for 2nd bolded, not a single player on that team even paced for 50 points over 82 games (a side from Toffoli who got traded early on during the season. But lets be fair, if Toffoli stays all season he probably gets close to 55-60 points, but that also means that Suzuki is at 65-70 points.

The injuries that year only have negative effects on Suzuki's production. Looking at only the ES points is very reductive since Suzuki acutally scored on the powerplay and Beniers isn't.

The two players at 22 really aren't close. And there is no argument for it.
 

Look at the Line Combinations. Overall, Suzuki scored more with Caufield on the ice than anyone else.

Natural Stat Trick also shows they played 775 minutes together in 67 games. Overall, Suzuki only played 245 minutes all season without one of Caufield/Anderson/Toffoli/Hoffman.

And the Habs were complete ass because almost everyone got hurt. Only 3 guys played 70+ games that season, with Suzuki being the only guy to play all 82. Toffoli and Drouin didn't even play half the season. Dvorak and Gallagher only played 56 games. But, they all spent time playing with Suzuki while they were healthy and that's when he scored a lot of his points.
I checked that site and pre 2023-24 is not showing up for me, so I'll take your word for it though it would still shock me, Caufield was buried under Ducharme
 
It's a decent proposal to be fair, but people are forgetting that the Habs already have a future 2nd liner in Michael Hage. They need to just stay the course and realize that their cup contention window opens next year. Think Hawks circa 2007 to get an idea of the timeline here.
 
It's a decent proposal to be fair, but people are forgetting that the Habs already have a future 2nd liner in Michael Hage. They need to just stay the course and realize that their cup contention window opens next year. Think Hawks circa 2007 to get an idea of the timeline here.
“Decent proposal” lmao

Not a single Kraken supporter has said anything but “no f***in way” but sure…”decent”

Literally 👇
Never change Habs fans, never change.

Who does this make sense for? Montreal exclusively. And here are fifty reasons why the player we want is actually terrible and we're doing you a favor by taking him.
 
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“Decent proposal” lmao

Not a single Kraken supporter has said anything but “no f***in way” but sure…”decent”

Literally 👇
How are we focusing on the poster saying it’s a decent proposal and not that they think Montreal is contending for the cup next year? That’s worse than any proposal I’ve seen and Han’s fans have had some terrible ones.
 
Here we go!

I know that like every proposal here on this site, it'll be probably too much for one fan base and not enough for the other.

But before making this proposal, I've studied the rosters of every NHL team (as a Habs fan) for the perfect trade match up.

I've noticed that Seattle has some depth at center while being a little shallow in terms of quality LHD.
As much in terms of actual NHL players than prospects.

MTL need a 2nd line center while having depth at LHD.

Beniers and Guhle are two very good young players.
Beniers has more upside and is a center, that's why there's a mid 1st rounder added from Mtl vs a late 2nd coming from Seattle.

Thoughts?
McTavish and a switch of first round picks I might part with Guhle?
 
Thing is Caufield aside (who was a rookie), none of these guys are better than McCann, Schwartz, Eberle, Bjorkstrand, Tolvanen, Burakovski, etc.
Thinking that Burakovsky is anything but a warm body on Seattle shows that you know absolutely nothing and are talking out your ass.

Also, Drouin and Toffoli were close to a ppg that season with limited time which has happened to exactly two Seattle players in their existence, and only once- Dunn and McCann during the second season where everything clicked and we got extremely lucky.

Seattle had 10 players above .5 PPG this year in the majority of their games.

Montreal had 8.

Above .6?

3, 4 if you count Drouin at .59

7 for Seattle.

Above 7 though?

Montreal has 2 players, and Seattle has 1, two if you count Eberle at .69.

The comparison really isn't that far off and I don't know why people are still arguing this. Beniers has a ways to go but he's not that far behind Suzuki, people treating him as a 40pt center is laughable and Montreal has a far better team now, hopefully Seattle will follow suit and Beniers potential will be unlocked.
 
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