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Scoring pace ("matnor" method)

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First time moderating, long time moderated: And if you're bringing something new to the conversation - anyone...please do it in that thread. This thread is a pretty cool idea that probably has more room to grow...

(Sorry for overstepping)
 
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MadLuke said:
Jagr seem to have lost the ppg title mostly (only ?) to Lemieux-Lindros.
Click to expand...
More or less. In addition to leading the league in PPG three times, Jagr finished runner-up four times (twice to Lemieux, once to Lindros, and once to Thornton). Then he finished 3rd twice (to Lemieux & Lindros, and then to Bertuzzi & Iginla).

Important disclaimer - those stats have not been adjusted to take into the size of the talent pool, the difficulty of his team's schedule, the relative altitude of each arena, the proportion of Tuesday night road games against the opponent's backup goalie, how much rainfall there was in Lima Peru, or the length of Jagr's mullet.
 
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Matsun said:
Great stuff, could we get a version with Wayne/Mario removed from the equation?
Click to expand...
Sure thing, here are the four main tables:

1-PPG pace (Gretzky & Lemieux removed, 1927-2022)

Player1st
Gordie Howe567
Phil Esposito406
Jaromir Jagr384
Sidney Crosby339
Connor McDavid326
Stan Mikita324
Bill Cowley274
Guy Lafleur234
Alex Ovechkin233
Jean Beliveau227
Bill Cook164
Elmer Lach164
Marcel Dionne164
Sweeney Schriner164
Mark Messier160
Max Bentley159
Bobby Hull158
Howie Morenz153
Charlie Conacher152
Ted Lindsay149
Jari Kurri140
Pat LaFontaine140
Eric Lindros131
Peter Forsberg114

3-PPG pace (Gretzky & Lemieux removed, 1927-2022)

Player3rd
Gordie Howe950
Stan Mikita703
Jean Beliveau693
Jaromir Jagr680
Phil Esposito649
Maurice Richard555
Sidney Crosby544
Connor McDavid524
Guy Lafleur474
Bobby Orr470
Bobby Hull469
Evgeni Malkin439
Marcel Dionne410
Ted Lindsay395
Charlie Conacher371
Bernie Geoffrion358
Andy Bathgate322
Jari Kurri301
Busher Jackson301
Doug Bentley294
Sweeney Schriner289
Syl Apps Sr278
Bill Cowley274
Dickie Moore269
Eric Lindros267
Peter Forsberg259

5-PPG pace (Gretzky & Lemieux removed, 1927-2022)

Player5th
Gordie Howe1,587
Maurice Richard849
Sidney Crosby784
Stan Mikita783
Bobby Hull775
Jean Beliveau693
Jaromir Jagr680
Phil Esposito649
Syl Apps Sr607
Marcel Dionne572
Andy Bathgate569
Joe Sakic530
Connor McDavid524
Evgeni Malkin496
Peter Forsberg484
Ted Lindsay477
Bernie Geoffrion477
Guy Lafleur474
Mike Bossy474
Bobby Orr470
Doug Bentley455
Bill Cowley437
Elmer Lach399
Alex Ovechkin396
Howie Morenz395
Patrick Kane386

10-PPG pace (Gretzky & Lemieux removed, 1927-2022)

Player10th
Gordie Howe1,669
Jean Beliveau1,088
Maurice Richard1,013
Bobby Hull933
Sidney Crosby865
Stan Mikita783
Ted Lindsay774
Joe Sakic758
Andy Bathgate733
Phil Esposito729
Marcel Dionne722
Nels Stewart700
Evgeni Malkin696
Mark Messier692
Syl Apps Sr681
Jaromir Jagr680
Bill Cowley645
Elmer Lach634
Alex Ovechkin634
Mike Bossy629
Alex Delvecchio621
Bernie Geoffrion603
Denis Savard600
Frank Boucher570
Peter Stastny552

A few general comments:

I've deleted Gretzky and Lemieux, but haven't considered the impact on any of their teammates. (I like Kurri, but would he really have played 300+ games at a top-three PPG pace without Gretzky? Maybe yes, but it's worth a deeper dive).

As expected, a lot of the stars of the 1980's and early 1990's look much better under this approach (Stastny, Hawerchuk, Savard, Lafontaine etc). Yzerman also looks better, but not by as much as I would have thought.

Jagr also looks really good (3rd in the top-1 table, and 4th in the top-3). Given league dynamics I think a good argument can be made that his result is the 2nd most impressive (after Howe) in both categories. But lack of "depth" hurts him - he had 680 games(!) pacing as a top three scorer, but nothing else where he was pacing for the top ten.
 
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Namba 17 said:
Great work, as usual.
Would it be interesting for you to make the same calculations for goals?
Click to expand...
Yes, now that the database is set up, it's trivial to run additional reports. The same four "main" tables:

1-GPG pace (1927-2022)

[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD]Player[/TD]
[TD]1st[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Alex Ovechkin[/TD]
[TD]716[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Bobby Hull[/TD]
[TD]611[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Phil Esposito[/TD]
[TD]407[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Maurice Richard[/TD]
[TD]401[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Mario Lemieux[/TD]
[TD]393[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Charlie Conacher[/TD]
[TD]371[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Gordie Howe[/TD]
[TD]246[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Wayne Gretzky[/TD]
[TD]240[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Brett Hull[/TD]
[TD]237[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Roy Conacher[/TD]
[TD]203[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Bernie Geoffrion[/TD]
[TD]187[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Bill Cook[/TD]
[TD]164[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jean Beliveau[/TD]
[TD]157[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jari Kurri[/TD]
[TD]155[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Ted Lindsay[/TD]
[TD]150[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Auston Matthews[/TD]
[TD]149[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Teemu Selanne[/TD]
[TD]148[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Charlie Simmer[/TD]
[TD]132[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Sidney Crosby[/TD]
[TD]116[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

3-GPG pace (1927-2022)

[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD]Player[/TD]
[TD]3rd[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Gordie Howe[/TD]
[TD]893[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Alex Ovechkin[/TD]
[TD]873[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Maurice Richard[/TD]
[TD]767[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Bobby Hull[/TD]
[TD]693[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Phil Esposito[/TD]
[TD]569[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Mike Bossy[/TD]
[TD]551[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Mario Lemieux[/TD]
[TD]529[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Steven Stamkos[/TD]
[TD]447[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Frank Mahovlich[/TD]
[TD]404[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Wayne Gretzky[/TD]
[TD]403[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Guy Lafleur[/TD]
[TD]398[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jean Beliveau[/TD]
[TD]390[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jaromir Jagr[/TD]
[TD]372[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Charlie Conacher[/TD]
[TD]371[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Roy Conacher[/TD]
[TD]359[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Bill Cook[/TD]
[TD]326[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Howie Morenz[/TD]
[TD]317[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Pavel Bure[/TD]
[TD]312[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Teemu Selanne[/TD]
[TD]308[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Busher Jackson[/TD]
[TD]301[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Bernie Geoffrion[/TD]
[TD]269[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Dickie Moore[/TD]
[TD]269[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Marcel Dionne[/TD]
[TD]246[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jarome Iginla[/TD]
[TD]245[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Marty Barry[/TD]
[TD]244[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

5-GPG pace (1927-2022)

[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD]Player[/TD]
[TD]5th[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Gordie Howe[/TD]
[TD]1,132[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Alex Ovechkin[/TD]
[TD]1,036[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Maurice Richard[/TD]
[TD]931[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Bobby Hull[/TD]
[TD]857[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Mike Bossy[/TD]
[TD]706[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jean Beliveau[/TD]
[TD]679[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Mario Lemieux[/TD]
[TD]595[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Phil Esposito[/TD]
[TD]569[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Nels Stewart[/TD]
[TD]539[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Bernie Geoffrion[/TD]
[TD]534[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jaromir Jagr[/TD]
[TD]534[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Roy Conacher[/TD]
[TD]523[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Stan Mikita[/TD]
[TD]485[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Wayne Gretzky[/TD]
[TD]485[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Frank Mahovlich[/TD]
[TD]484[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Steven Stamkos[/TD]
[TD]447[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Marcel Dionne[/TD]
[TD]410[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Guy Lafleur[/TD]
[TD]398[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Howie Morenz[/TD]
[TD]395[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Teemu Selanne[/TD]
[TD]390[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Syl Apps Sr[/TD]
[TD]385[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Michel Goulet[/TD]
[TD]383[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Busher Jackson[/TD]
[TD]379[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Gordie Drillon[/TD]
[TD]376[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Auston Matthews[/TD]
[TD]375[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


10-GPG pace (1927-2022)

[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD]Player[/TD]
[TD]10th[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Gordie Howe[/TD]
[TD]1,539[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Alex Ovechkin[/TD]
[TD]1,180[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Maurice Richard[/TD]
[TD]1,099[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Bobby Hull[/TD]
[TD]1,012[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jean Beliveau[/TD]
[TD]882[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Wayne Gretzky[/TD]
[TD]793[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Nels Stewart[/TD]
[TD]782[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Ted Lindsay[/TD]
[TD]773[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Mike Bossy[/TD]
[TD]771[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Mario Lemieux[/TD]
[TD]751[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Bernie Geoffrion[/TD]
[TD]734[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Phil Esposito[/TD]
[TD]731[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Frank Mahovlich[/TD]
[TD]715[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jaromir Jagr[/TD]
[TD]686[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Roy Conacher[/TD]
[TD]676[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Steven Stamkos[/TD]
[TD]606[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Brett Hull[/TD]
[TD]606[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Marcel Dionne[/TD]
[TD]572[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Bill Cook[/TD]
[TD]570[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Andy Bathgate[/TD]
[TD]568[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Stan Mikita[/TD]
[TD]561[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Eric Lindros[/TD]
[TD]528[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Gordie Drillon[/TD]
[TD]528[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Syl Apps Sr[/TD]
[TD]524[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Yvan Cournoyer[/TD]
[TD]518[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Do any major surprises jump out?
 
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Not that anybody has asked, but for the sake of completeness, here are the assists:

1-APG pace (1927-2022)

Player1st
Wayne Gretzky947
Bobby Orr470
Mario Lemieux391
Bill Cowley322
Connor McDavid239
Frank Boucher239
Joe Primeau226
Syl Apps Sr208
Sidney Crosby195
Peter Forsberg186
Gordie Howe164
Stan Mikita164
Elmer Lach164
Henrik Sedin164
Bert Olmstead164
Joe Thornton163
Ted Lindsay163
Art Chapman162
Doug Bentley161
Bobby Clarke160
Phil Esposito160
Jean Beliveau159
Henri Richard157
Bryan Trottier157

3-APG pace (1927-2022)

Player3rd
Wayne Gretzky1,185
Stan Mikita701
Mario Lemieux678
Phil Esposito568
Frank Boucher567
Joe Thornton565
Gordie Howe533
Andy Bathgate487
Jean Beliveau476
Elmer Lach473
Bobby Orr470
Sidney Crosby469
Bill Cowley403
Guy Lafleur402
Connor McDavid397
Peter Forsberg389
Jaromir Jagr384
Adam Oates381
Paul Coffey369
Art Chapman313
Doug Bentley307
Syl Apps Sr278
Ryan Getzlaf278
Henrik Sedin246
Bert Olmstead246
Marcel Dionne246

5-APG pace (1927-2022)

Player5th
Wayne Gretzky1,461
Gordie Howe1,187
Jean Beliveau756
Mario Lemieux743
Joe Thornton713
Stan Mikita701
Paul Coffey670
Andy Bathgate651
Frank Boucher649
Jaromir Jagr617
Peter Forsberg593
Phil Esposito568
Elmer Lach555
Sidney Crosby548
Adam Oates545
Connor McDavid524
Marcel Dionne492
Nicklas Backstrom492
Bill Cowley485
Ted Lindsay477
Guy Lafleur474
Bobby Orr470
Howie Morenz446
Henrik Sedin410
Alex Delvecchio401

10-APG pace (1927-2022)

Player10th
Gordie Howe1,669
Wayne Gretzky1,543
Jean Beliveau1,038
Adam Oates990
Paul Coffey892
Joe Thornton873
Stan Mikita832
Andy Bathgate798
Alex Delvecchio782
Jaromir Jagr777
Bill Cowley758
Mario Lemieux743
Frank Boucher731
Phil Esposito729
Elmer Lach709
Joe Sakic676
Ryan Getzlaf650
Bryan Trottier627
Bernie Federko620
Peter Stastny618
Nicklas Backstrom609
Henri Richard607
Mark Messier601
Peter Forsberg593
Henrik Sedin574
 
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Hockey Outsider said:
Yzerman also looks better, but not by as much as I would have thought.
Click to expand...
Made him completely disappear (maybe because it helped Messier-savard-Forsberg and some other to get ahead), make him in a way look quite worse.

The Top 5 in goal per game duration, could be the actual top 5 goalscorer of all time (Many others could be, Bossy, Bure, Hull Jr. Gretzky, etc..., but they could be)
 
jigglysquishy said:
If I'm understanding the method right, McDavid will get credit for 82 games of the PPG pace? If so, he just overtakes Esposito this year.
Click to expand...
Correct, assuming he plays all 82 games. (At this point, it's virtually impossible he won't lead the league in PPG, so he'll get credit for somewhere between 68 and 82 games, depending on how many games he plays).
 
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Staniowski said:
These types of lists are always problematic because it's a very simplistic view of hockey history that treats every season/every era as equal. Given the huge differences in the quantity of quality hockey players over different eras, the result is an extremely inaccurate picture of the best scorers over time.

The issue isn't the number of teams; rather its the depth of quality players.

The Original 6 stars, for example, are vastly overrated on some of these lists, in comparison to players from parts of the '80s and '90s when the NHL talent pool was far bigger, and there were substantially more elite players, and therefore a lot more competition among the best scorers.
Click to expand...

It always puzzles me when people want to talk about what something isn't, instead of what it actually is.
 
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Nice work as always.

Gretzky gets kind of low-balled in the top-1 goals per game thing, in that the guy who "beats" him in 1985 is the guy he set up for 80％ of his goals. Also, I'm guessing the OP is calculating Lemieux as number 1 in 1987, but that's kind of wonky too, as Gretzky and Lemieux had the same number of goals in the same number of games. But it is what it is.

It would be interesting to see lists for primary points, even strength points, etc.
 
Hockey Outsider said:
I've deleted Gretzky and Lemieux, but haven't considered the impact on any of their teammates. (I like Kurri, but would he really have played 300+ games at a top-three PPG pace without Gretzky? Maybe yes, but it's worth a deeper dive).
Click to expand...
Thanks for the tables, great work. Yeah its hard to know how players like Kurri would be impacted.
 
tarheelhockey said:
More and more I'm convinced there really isn't a debate any more for Ovie as the #1 goal scorer of all time. The rest of his game is up for debate, but not that part.
Click to expand...

Being a Crosby fan I hate to go there, but to say what he has been able to do in the era he has played in is anything less than extremely remarkable would require intellectual dishonesty, Even if the Caps have spent some of his career basically trying to set him up, the puck has to get by goalies and find the net.

Maybe beyond impressive should be the low bar.
 
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tarheelhockey said:
More and more I'm convinced there really isn't a debate any more for Ovie as the #1 goal scorer of all time. The rest of his game is up for debate, but not that part.
Click to expand...
Yeah, it's him or Mario for me I think. I mean, Ovechkin isn't even trying and hasn't been...and he's still a lock for 40 goals at the age of 37...it's not even new and fun ways, from day one to day whatever, he could theoretically stand still the whole game and just blow one by goalies...it's just silly. Everyone else at this age has to reinvent their game to stay relevant, Ovi just goes, "Nah, I'll just continue to shoot and score at will...I'm all set. Thanks." ...and the best athletes in the world are basically powerless...
 
Michael Farkas said:
Yeah, it's him or Mario for me I think. I mean, Ovechkin isn't even trying and hasn't been...and he's still a lock for 40 goals at the age of 37...it's not even new and fun ways, from day one to day whatever, he could theoretically stand still the whole game and just blow one by goalies...it's just silly. Everyone else at this age has to reinvent their game to stay relevant, Ovi just goes, "Nah, I'll just continue to shoot and score at will...I'm all set. Thanks." ...and the best athletes in the world are basically powerless...
Click to expand...
I find that he basically re-invented his game into an old man's game while still in his 20s. I'm fine with Ovechkin as the greatest goal scorer in NHL history though, a few years ago even. He checks off every box.

Looking at this information again, something that I find interesting is how uncommon it was prior to the 1950s for a player to dominate scoring at the per game level for an extended period. Unrelated to this but I think that part of Richard's massive reputation, which seems quite overblown looking at bullet points 70 years later, is that he was so good for so long in a time when many greats weren't.
 
Ovechkins goalscoring looks really insane if you look at it with players after 06 era.

[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD]Player[/TD]
[TD]1st[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Alex Ovechkin[/TD]
[TD]716[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Phil Esposito[/TD]
[TD]407[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Mario Lemieux[/TD]
[TD]393[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Wayne Gretzky[/TD]
[TD]240[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Brett Hull[/TD]
[TD]237[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jari Kurri[/TD]
[TD]155[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Auston Matthews[/TD]
[TD]149[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Teemu Selanne[/TD]
[TD]148[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Charlie Simmer[/TD]
[TD]132[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Sidney Crosby[/TD]
[TD]116[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Player3rd
Alex Ovechkin873
Phil Esposito569
Mike Bossy551
Mario Lemieux529
Steven Stamkos447
Wayne Gretzky403
Guy Lafleur398
Jaromir Jagr372
Pavel Bure312
Teemu Selanne308
Marcel Dionne246
Jarome Iginla245


Player5th
Alex Ovechkin1036
Mike Bossy706
Mario Lemieux595
Phil Esposito569
Jaromir Jagr534
Wayne Gretzky485
Steven Stamkos447
Marcel Dionne410
Guy Lafleur398
Teemu Selanne390
Michel Goulet383
Auston Matthews375


Player10th
Alex Ovechkin1180
Wayne Gretzky793
Mike Bossy771
Mario Lemieux751
Phil Esposito731
Jaromir Jagr686
Steven Stamkos606
Brett Hull606
Marcel Dionne572
Eric Lindros528
 
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I'm not going to update all the tables, but Connor McDavid now ranks 4th in NHL history (going back to 1927) in terms of games played at a league-leading pace:

Player1st
Wayne Gretzky872
Gordie Howe567
Mario Lemieux452
Connor McDavid408

This season, he jumped ahead of Esposito and Crosby (and he was already ahead of Jagr, Beliveau, Lafluer, etc). He also ranks 4th all-time in games played at a top-2 pace (561 games).
 
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