Savannah Ghost Pirates vs Chicago Shamrocks (ATD2025 Bob Cole Division Semifinal)

[Theokritos]

Savannah Ghost Pirates
GM: @VanIslander

coach Pat Quinn

Joe Malone - Newsy Lalonde (C) - Didier Pitre
Paul Kariya - Norm Ullman - Teemu Selanne
Herbie Lewis - Marty Barry - Larry Aurie
Artemi Panarin - Darryl Sittler (A) - Frank Finnigan
Tommy Smith, Butch Goring, Bob Nevin

Slava Fetisov - Tim Horton
Hap Day (A) - Cale Makar
Doug Wilson - Ken Reardon
Bob Goldham

Patrick Roy
Tiny Thompson


PP1: Kariya - Lalonde - Selanne - Fetisov - Wilson
PP2: Lewis - Malone - Pitre - Horton - Makar
PK1: Ullman - Finnigan - Day - Horton - Roy
PK2: Barry - Aurie - Fetisov - Reardon - Roy​

Chicago Shamrocks
GM: @Hawkey Town 18

Coach: Tommy Ivan

Dickie Moore - Jean Beliveau (C) - Patrick Kane
Michel Goulet - Gilbert Perreault - Vladimir Martinec
Marty Pavelich - Neil Colville - Cecil Dillon
Ed Sandford - Ken Mosdell - Joe Pavelski

Jacques Laperriere - Earl Seibert (A)
Georges Boucher - Fern Flaman (A)
Ryan McDonagh -"Bullet" Joe Simpson

Jacques Plante
Percy LeSueur

Spare Fwds: Rick Nash, Bob Bourne
Spare Dmen: John Carlson, Lloyd Cook


PP1
Beliveau
Moore - Perreault - Kane
Boucher

PP2
Goulet - Pavelski - Martinec
Seibert - Simpson

PK1
Pavelich - Mosdell
Laperriere - Seibert

PK2
Colville - Dillon
McDonagh - Flaman

PLANTE

Extra PK F: Pavelski
Extra PK D: Boucher
​

 

[VanIslander]

Tip of the hat to that loaded 1st line.

Fortunately, Horton was drafted to join Fetisov in front of Roy for EXACTLY this scenario. (Richard & Esposito were two other divisional 1st round picked opponents that made the decision to pick Roy + a defensive top pairing a priority. Savannah is built to handle an elite top line.)

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Apologies for being away, I was dealing with some issues in my personal life. I'm not sure how much time I'll have for this series, but I will post what I can and try to be a voting participant going forward.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Chicago's Regular Season Estimated Minutes (expect the top players to get more ice time in the playoff as usual)

Forwards

Players	ES	PP	PK	Total
D. Moore	14	4	18
J. Beliveau	16	5	21
P. Kane	13	5	18
M. Goulet	14	2	16
G. Perreault	13	4	17
V. Martinec	14	3	17
M. Pavelich	11	4	15
N. Colville	10	3	13
C. Dillon	12	3	15
E. Sandford	7	7
K. Mosdell	7	4	11
J. Pavelski	7	2	9
TOTAL	138	25	14	177

Defense

Players	ES	PP	PK	Total
J. Laperriere	17	4	21
E. Seibert	18	2	4	24
G. Boucher	17	4	21
F. Flaman	17	3	20
R. McDonagh	12	3	15
J. Simpson	11	3	14
TOTAL	92	9	14	115

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Here is something I was working on during the draft, as I was focusing on building a team of winners/big game players:


Built for the Playoffs

• Jean Beliveau: 1x Retro Conn Smythe + 1x Conn Smythe,
  • #4 on HOH Top 40 Stanley Cup Playoff Performers,
  • 10x Cup Winner,
  • Only Player to Captain 5 Cup Winners,
  • Part of 2 NHL Dynasties including the only one to Win 5 Cups in a Row.
  • Led 1956 Playoffs in Goals and Points
  • Led Playoffs in Assists 3x
• Jacques Plante: 1x Retro Conn Smythe,
  • #8 on HOH Top 40 Stanley Cup Playoff Performers (2nd Goalie on the list),
  • 6 Cups, Starting Goalie for all 40 wins of the Montreal Dynasty that Won 5 Cups in a Row,
  • At age 40 he played 10 of 13 games had all 8 team wins for the Blues 1969 Cup Final Run, the next year at age 41 he split duties with Glenn Hall and got 4 of 8 team wins in another Cup Final Run.
• Patrick Kane: 1x Conn Smythe,
  • Led the NHL in Playoff Points (12% more than 2nd), Goals, and Assists from 2009-2015 on the Modern-Dynasty Blackhawks who won 3 Cups and went to 5 Conf Finals.
  • Tied for 3rd most Playoff OT Goals All Time with 5 (behind Sakic and M. Richard).
  • Tied for 3rd most Playoff OT Points All Time with 8 (behind Sakic, and Gilmour)
  • From @overpass’s study, Kane scored an astounding 1.21 p/gp in games 5-7 of playoff series– 41% more than in games 1-4, with the following highlights:
    • 2009 - Hat trick in Game 6 to close out Vancouver
      2010 - 10 points in 6 GP (games 5-7), including 3 points and the Cup-winning OT goal in Game 6 vs PHI
      2013 - Hat trick in Game 5 with an OT goal to send home LAK, the defending champs
      2013 - 2 goals in Game 5 of the Cup final vs BOS
      2015 - 8 points in 3 series-winning games (Game 6 vs NSH, Game 7 vs ANA, Game 6 vs TBL)
  • Led 2015 NHL Playoffs in Points (2nd, 3rd, 5th in other years)
• Dickie Moore: Led Playoffs in Points and Assists 2x (1954, 1959)
  • Led Playoffs in Goals 1x (1960),
  • 2nd in Playoff Points from 1956-1960, playing for the Dynasty Montreal teams that won 5 Cups in a Row (behind Geoffrion),
  • As a 37 year old he led the 1968 Blues in Playoff Scoring on their Cup Final Run,
  • 6 Cups total
• Earl Seibert: Possible 1x Retro Conn Smythe in 1938 (mentioned in HFboards bios, but still trying to find the source - either way it seems like a Smythe level year - see below),
  • 1 point away from leading the All Players in Playoff Points during the 1938 Cup Win.
  • 2 Cups with 2 different teams.
  • Ultimate Hockey: Seibert was the biggest factor in Chicago’s Cinderella Stanley Cup Victory in 1938 and, according to his son, was given a piece of the team by owner Major McLaughlin. When McLaughlin died, though, manager Bill Tobin wouldn’t recognize the deal and swiftly dealt Seibert to the Detroit Red Wings
• Jacques Laperriere: Best Dman on Montreal DynastyTeams of the late 60’s/early 70’s that Won 4 Cups in 6 years,
  • 5x Cup Winner
• Georges Boucher: 4x Cup Winner on Ottawa Dynasty,
  • Ottawa Citizen 1921: In the world series against Seattle, through the games both in Ottawa and Toronto, Boucher was probably the brightest star on the Ottawa team.
• Marty Pavelich: One of only 5 players to be on all 4 of Detroit’s DynastyCup Winning teams of the 1950’s.
  • Went an entire Cup Winning playoff year without being on the ice for a single ES goal against!
  • Held Rocket Richard pointless for an entire playoff series.
  • Ultimate Hockey: Marty Pavelich was the man Gordie Howe said was the heart and soul of the dynasty Red Wings
• Vladimir Martinec: 1x IIHF World Championship Directorate Best Forward (1976)
  • 4x IIHF World Championship All-Star Team (1974, 1975, 1976, 1977)
  • Best player on the “Golden Era” CSSR teams that won WC Gold 3 times over those great Soviet teams of the 1970’s (including back to back Golds) with an overall record of 5-7-3 against the Soviets.
  • Izvestia Tournament Best Forward and Top Scorer (1979)
• Gilbert Perreault: 1981 Canada Cup All Star Team despite not finishing the tourney
  • Overall numbers in Best-on-Best tournaments: 13 gp, 8 g, 11 a, 19 pts
    Knockout stage numbers in Best-on-Best tournaments: 4 gp, 3 g, 2 a, 5 pts
• Fern Flaman:Best Player (not just Dman) and Captain of the Bruins teams that went to back to back Finals in 1957 & 58 (Bruins finished 3rd and 4th in Reg Season those years)
  • 1x Cup Winner
• Cecil Dillon: 1x Retro Smythe
  • Led NHL Playoffs in Goals and Points in 1933
  • 1x Cup Winner
• Neil Colville: Led NHL Playoffs in Assists and Points in 1940
  • 1x Cup Winner
• Ed Sandford: 1x Retro Smythe
  • Led NHL Playoffs in Goals and Points in 1953
• Ryan McDonagh:1st in both Points and TOI on the 2014 Rangers that went to the Cup Final
  • Led all Dmen in non-PP points in the 2014 Playoffs (i.e. ES + SH pts)
  • Led the 2021 Playoffs in plus/minus with a staggering +18 (the highest +/- of any Dman in the playoffs since Brian Leetch's +19 in 1994)
    2nd in TOI (to Hedman) on the 2020-22 Lightning Modern-Dynasty that made 3 straight Finals, and won back to back Cups
    Made 7 Conf Finals + 4 Cup Finals in his career, a lot for the modern era.
• Ken Mosdell: 4x Cup Winner
• Joe Pavelski:Tied for 3rd most Playoff OT Points All Time
  • Led NHL Playoffs in Goals in 2016
• Michel Goulet:During Prime with Quebec made 3 Conf Finals in 6 years
  • Led Team in Playoff Goals all 3 Years (28 goals in 46 GP over that span)
• Joe Simpson: See his BIO for a description of his play in the 1923 Cup Final: here
• John Carlson (spare): Led all NHL Dmen in playoff points in the 2018 Cup Win
• Lloyd Cook (spare): Led all Dmen in Stanley Cup Scoring 1900-1926

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Tip of the hat to that loaded 1st line.

Fortunately, Horton was drafted to join Fetisov in front of Roy for EXACTLY this scenario. (Richard & Esposito were two other divisional 1st round picked opponents that made the decision to pick Roy + a defensive top pairing a priority. Savannah is built to handle an elite top line.)

Fortunately, Chicago was built to have a flexible top 6 for just this type of occasion. Should Ivan see fit, he can put out an alternate top 6 as follows:

Michel Goulet - Jean Beliveau (C) - Vladimir Martinec
Dickie Moore - Gilbert Perreault - Patrick Kane

Note: This setup still gives Chicago an advantage at C and RW when comparing 1st Lines!

EDIT: To be clear, this is not a lineup change, just an option that Ivan has. The lineup in the OP is Chicago's main lineup.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

As I have time I am going to lay out some additional points in favor of Chicago/criticisms of Savannah in this series, starting here:


Lack of Centers to Check Beliveau
It was mentioned above that Vancouver has a strong top D pairing of Fetisov – Horton, and while that is definitely correct, a truly elite player like Jean Beliveau also requires Centers that are very strong defensively if you want to try to limit his effectiveness. Further, it is impossible to ALWAYS have that D pair out against Beliveau.

The only Center that Savannah has that is very strong defensively is Norm Ullman, which is not an ideal situation. Ullman is Savannah’s 2nd Line Center between Kariya and Selanne. This is a well-constructed line for sure, but not a line meant to match up as a checking line against top lines that are more talented than them like Chicago's first line. Ullman is the ONLY defensive presence on that line, Kariya and Selanne give no help. Ullman will have his hands full taking care of all of the defensive responsibilities and not have enough attention to focus specifically on Beliveau.

Finally (this is a minor point but worth mentioning after considering the above), while Ullman is a very strong defensive Center, most of that reputation seems to come from forechecking and general defensive play, not shadowing/shutting down opposing top Centers.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Chicago Does Have the Pieces to Limit Lalonde (and Malone)
This is a natural follow-up on the above point. Newsy Lalonde is Savannah’s best forward and most dangerous threat offensively. Similar to Savannah, Chicago has a great shutdown top pairing of Jacques Laperriere and Earl Seibert, but Chicago’s forwards offer much better defensive matchup options than Savannah’s.

To start, Chicago has 2 very strong defensive centers in the bottom 6, with Neil Colville and Ken Mosdell. Mosdell is the better of the two defensively, but Colville has more help from his wingers. On the 3rd line, Marty Pavelich is an elite defensive winger, one of the very best in the draft with 5 retro Selkes, and on the other side is Cecil Dillon a great two-way winger – “Cecil Dillon, speedy, sleek-haired wingman of the New York Rangers, who has been rated one of the National Hockey League's best back-checkers ever since his debut in 1930, is coming to the front as a contender for the scoring title.”

On the 4th line, Mosdell has Ed Sandford described as a “an effective and tenacious defensive left winger” and Joe Pavelski is a fine third piece here with 4 top-11 Selke finishes and token Selke votes most other years (he also gives Chicago a RHS faceoff option).

Chicago’s 2nd D pairing of Georges Boucher and Fern Flaman is fine option when the 1st pairing can’t be matched with the Lalonde line. Flaman is especially strong here, being one of only 2 defensemen other than Doug Harvey to get votes in the 1958 Coach’s Poll for best defensive defenseman. Flaman did not light it up offensively, but still managed a strong Norris record of 3, 3, 3, 5, 5 (with two of those 3rds being behind Harvey + Kelly), another indicator of his great defensive game.

Finally, Chicago will be more than fine if we get into a power on power scenario when the first lines match up against each other as this is a distinct advantage for Chicago with their first line being easily more talented with the better player at all 3 positions and also having the best defensive player on either line in Dickie Moore.


Just a Couple Quick Supporting Quotes on the above Centers (more can be found in their Master Thread Bios):

- Kenny Mosdell, a four time Stanley Cup champion with the Canadiens, saw big ice time as the Habs #1 shutdown guy. Mosdell would get the call every time the opposing team sent its No. 1 line into action. If it was Boston, he'd be out there against Milt Schmidt; if it was Detroit, he'd be checking Sid Abel of the Production Line, which had Gordie Howe and Ted Lindsay as the wingers; if it was Toronto, No. 18 Mosdell would be all over the Leafs' Syl Apps.

- Colville is one of the best all-around players in the NHL.
- Boucher said that Neil Colville and Patrick revealed natural aptitude for defence work...
- His defensive ability and leadership helped steady a team that was in a rebuilding stage.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Coaching

While Pat Quinn is a great coach, in a 20 team draft he is one of the weakest.

QUINN HAS NEVER WON A STANLEY CUP AS A HEAD COACH

On top of that Quinn has only coached a team to the Final twice (1980 Flyers and 1994 Canucks).

Quinn is a very strong regular season coach with 2 Jack Adams Awards, but coaching in the playoffs is a whole different animal.

Chicago’s coach, Tommy Ivan, on the other hand has 3 Stanley Cup wins as head coach of the Dynasty Red Wings, including an 8-0 undefeated run in 1952!

As far as impact, the Wings were 4th out of 6 teams the year before Ivan took the reins. His first year they finished 2nd and lost in the Cup Final. In his 3rd year they were Cup Champs.

 

[BenchBrawl]

@VanIslander Any argument to support your team? This is one of your best teams, show some grit.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Savannah's 2nd PK Unit
Savannah has Marty Barry on the 2nd PK unit. I cannot recall ever seeing a mention of Barry killing penalties, and also could not find anything in the two Barry bios linked in the Master Thread. Even if there is some evidence of him PKing, he’s surely not an all-time great PKer as is needed in the ATD.

While in my opinion a 2nd PP unit is not very important, the opposite is true of PK units, you really need two strong units, because a successful PK needs to kill 2 full minutes, which surely will require the 2nd PK unit to be out there for some of that time (under ideal circumstances both units probably get about two 30 second shifts each in a successful kill, although this certainly isn't always the case).

Barry on the PK is a weakness that will be exposed by Chicago’s lethal top PP unit. Beliveau is in the conversation for best net-front PP guy of all time, which will warrant a lot of attention from the Dmen, making it even more important to have strong PK forwards to focus on the perimeter guys (Kane, Moore, Boucher, Perreault in this case).

 

[VanIslander]

Remember the 24 belaboured draft posts. I put in all the info on the IRL chemistry of the greatest 1st line ever (those three together set NHL records before Joe Malone moved back to center in Quebec), the greatest wing duo paired with a draft-steal 2nd pivot, and the twice Stanley Cup champion third line, including the fastest player of the decade and the heralded best checking of the decade. Plus by far the best top-4 defenders (of this series - seriously), and goalie, Roy the top investment in this squad.

This is round 1. I expect Beliveau's line to require my THREE IRL NHL PROVEN LINES to step up. And, anticipated since the draft began, getting Roy & Horton (D plays more minutes than C) means Beliveau will face both on most shifts.

 

[nabby12]

Shamrocks in 4.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Getting Nasty
Chicago has multiple players in their lineup who can more than answer the bell in the case that things get nasty in this series, and Chicago may even take the series there themselves .
(see brief evidence of each at the end of this post– more can be found in their bios in the Master Thread: here).

This will likely be an important factor in this series in multiple ways. For one, Newsy Lalonde, Savannah’s best and most important forward, is known to get nasty, and Chicago is more than equipped to handle him and will not be intimidated by his antics.

Two, if things do get nasty it will have a more negative impact on Savannah as their best players will have to get involved, which will take away from the other more important aspects of their game. Let’s look at who factors in here:

Chicago: Flaman, Sandford, Seibert, Moore
Savannah: Lalonde, Horton, Reardon

(note: I am not including players who can be described as tough/physical/scrappy like Fetisov/Laperriere, Pavelich/Sittler, etc., the players above are a different animal)

Who is going to step up if Chicago’s players start taking liberties with guys like Malone, Selanne, and Kariya? Sandford and Flaman are potentially huge factors in this series, if they can preoccupy/distract the likes of Lalonde and Horton by forcing them to defend their teammates, it is an advantage for Chicago.

On the other side of the coin, Savannah will not be able to take such liberties with Chicago’s players without facing some serious consequences.



Fern Flaman

• 1958 Coach’s Poll: 1st for Best Fighter
• Joe Pelletier: "Ferny Flaman, the Scott Stevens of his day.
  Flaman was a rugged, no-nonsense defenseman with the Boston Bruins and Toronto Maple Leafs for 15 National Hockey League seasons. He scored just 34 career goals, but Flaman was known more for his vicious body checking, his aggressive play and his uncanny shot blocking ability."

Ed Sandford:

• "Big Ed Sandford, policeman of the playoff for Boston."
• Fred Cusick: "In hockey, the best fighters seldom fight. The establish their reputations early, and therefore nobody takes them on. Of course, some tough guys made a living out of stirring up trouble. Dave Schultz and Terry O'Reilly were leaders in this category. I recall Ed Sandford, a solid Bruins winger, clearly beating up a brash Montreal rookie, Dickie Moore, at the Forum. He did it so decisively that few players challenged him for the rest of his career"

Earl Seibert:

• "Seibert was generally regarded as second only to Eddie Shore in terms of skill and rugged play, and Shore once confessed that Seibert was the only man he was afraid to fight"

Dickie Moore:

• "As it was, Moore doubled as an inspirational force and pretty much one-man boxing team for the Canadiens. His pet sparring partners were the Red Wings, with the rangers a close second and every other team close behind. Occasionally Dickie went on a rampage and, accordingly, his teammates nicknamed him "Indian"."
• "Moore’s greatest asset lay in what he didn’t do. The 5-foot-10, 168-pounder refused to back down from anyone and he refused to lose. Whether it was a race for a loose puck, a battle along the boards or a round of fisticuffs, Moore usually emerged victorious."

 

[BenchBrawl]

I'll be blunt, I prefer VanI's team because it's among the most beautiful VanI teams, but HT18 brought it to the max. Painful to choose.

Doesn't help that Chicago is also rock solid team.

 

[BenchBrawl]

I can't decide I'll do my own analysis publicly:

1st lines:
Joe Malone - Newsy Lalonde (C) - Didier Pitre
Dickie Moore - Jean Beliveau (C) - Patrick Kane

Clear edge to Chicago, but +1 for creative use of Malone and IRL chemistry.

2nd lines:
Paul Kariya - Norm Ullman - Teemu Selanne
Michel Goulet - Gilbert Perreault - Vladimir Martinec

I'm a big fan of Perreault, consistently underrated. I prefer him to Ullman by a long shot. That said Ullman is a perfect center for the Kariya-Selanne combo, this is a perfect reunification and replacing Rucchin with arguably the most perfect possible choice. I'd give the edge for wingers to Savannah especially with chemistry.

Edge to Savannah.

3rd lines:
Herbie Lewis - Marty Barry - Larry Aurie
Marty Pavelich - Neil Colville - Cecil Dillon

Clear edge to Savannah especially with chemistry, and the chemistry is starting to add up.

4th lines:
Artemi Panarin - Darryl Sittler (A) - Frank Finnigan
Ed Sandford - Ken Mosdell - Joe Pavelski

Hard to compare. I'll call it a wash although Chicago's line has more of a real identity.

1st pairings:
Slava Fetisov - Tim Horton
Jacques Laperriere - Earl Seibert (A)

BIG edge to Savannah's first pairing.

2nd pairings:
Hap Day (A) - Cale Makar
Georges Boucher - Fern Flaman (A)

Closer, but I'd probably still give the edge to Savannah after the season Makar just had. Probably he's gonna win the Norris. That should push him rather easily over Boucher by now. Flaman much better than Day but overall, small edge to Savannah.

3rd pairings:
Doug Wilson - Ken Reardon
Ryan McDonagh -"Bullet" Joe Simpson

Big fan of Simpson, usually I'd rank Savannah's pairing higher as a reflex but Wilson-Reardon is a strange composition. I'll call it somewhat of a wash.

Goalies:
Roy = Plante for all purposes here.

Special Units:
Edge to Chicago.

Coaches:
Big edge to Chicago.

Overall:

1st lines: CHI+
2nd lines: SAV
3rd lines: SAV+
4th lines: -
1st pairings: SAV+
2nd pairings: SAV
3rd pairings: -
Goalies: -
Coaches: CHI+
Special units: CHI
GM effort: CHI+

Adding up the points with this extremely problematic and on-the-fly ridiculous BB system: CHI = 7, SAV = 6

Chicago wins for me.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

@VanIslander you built a very good team this year. It’s a shame you didn’t have time to get more involved in this series.

 

[VanIslander]

1. Quality and the product of hard work speaks for itself around here.

2. Bottom seeds out vote top seeds by selling more.

One is true of the regular season rankings, one of the playoffs.

 

[BenchBrawl]

1. Quality and the product of hard work speaks for itself around here.

2. Bottom seeds out vote top seeds by selling more.

One is true of the regular season rankings, one of the playoffs.

Why don't you defend your teams? I would love to see you win this thing someday.