Larry Brooks: Sather must decide: Is dealing Girardi best for Rangers?

[SML]

The whole problem with this (and Brooks nails this) when looking at Girardi is he's a 1st pairing RD. Look at the trouble we've had filling the THIRD pairing RD. Good freakin' luck finding someone to play the right side along with McD. The whole league needs quality first pairing RD.

No way do I move Girardi. Callahan, yes, if the return is right.

The point of moving them is rebuilding. Its ok if you dont have a rock solid rd for the rest of the year. Now consider this: How much less do you figure DG signs for if we dont trade him? Is he goung to give us a break in dollars or term? Doubtful. Someone is going to come in very high for his services. He has an obligation to explore that. Its a once in a lifetime opportunity, and you cant hold it against him. But say he gives us a 2m/yr discount because he like it here, which is completely unrealistic. Wouldnt you rather trade him for the return listed and pay him 2m more a season?

 

[HatTrick Swayze]

So just re-sign everyone forever with no game plan for the future because some other deals that weren't even the same situations didn't work out. That's some really great reasoning.

Guess how keeping them both is going to work out for this franchise? Spoiler: it doesn't.

Great argument, because that's exactly what I said.

 

[GAGLine]

And how did the "2-3 steps forward" work out in the Hossa and Kovalchuk deals?

Who cares? Just because atlanta sucked both before and after those deals doesn't mean we can't improve our team by trading players.

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

Awful management, where have I heard that before. Who is the best player acquired for either? Johnny Oduya? Colby Armstrong?

A mid 20s pick and a prospect sounds nice now but the reality is far, far from certain.

Trading them for a CHANCE to rebuild appears to be a much better option. It is up to the scouting dept and GM to make sure that this chance works out. Just bc Atlanta's scouting dept failed doesn't mean the NYR will. Diff situations, diff scouting dept, different team building philosophies, different prospect pools.

 

[eco's bones]

And how did the "2-3 steps forward" work out in the Hossa and Kovalchuk deals?

I really can't wait til the "soooo how do we improve our defense??" posts start popping up.

Not well. I'd hate to give up either Girardi or Callahan--the problem is we might lose them anyway for nothing. Both have all the leverage in negotiating with Sather/Gorton. If the Rangers intend to sign either of them--they need to get at it.

Without Girardi the right side is going to have a huge hole. Lose Stralman as well and it's a massive hole. What we have to plug it with in house--Moore, Falk, Allen, Del Zotto (if he hasn't moved--and he is horrible on the right side), McIlrath. Bickel is another UFA and I doubt he'll be back.

The other thing to remember is the 1st's you might get back from contending teams will be at the end of the round. They're nice but you're not going to get the premium guys in the draft.

 

[The Gloaming]

see thats whats scary about both these guys..

to me girardi can't not be lost, and would be real stupid to trade.. and to say he cant handle puck give me a break.. our entire d outside of G are all skating dman.. having g gives stability and strengthens the group.. losing him and callahan you minds well have wasted the past 4-5years, and just opens the door to over pay a tier below these guys..

see as ranger fans we severely under appreciate these guys and what they bring to our team.. and always think the grass is greener else where with different players in our lineup.. prospects, **** that!

Yeah, prospects. Just like Kreider and McDonagh were prospects.

What about the last 4-5 years? They have already been wasted.

Nobody is saying to trade them for garbage. Change the dynamic of the team. What we're doing now isn't working. But yeah, keep living in the past.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

Its all about where the team is right now, which is not a contender and clearly regressing over the past 18 months -- not to mention that Girardi and Callahan don't exactly fit the latest team philosophy (although this changes with the direction of the wind, so I take that with a grain of salt).

If Sather dithers over the next 2 months, he has committed to massively overpaying 2 good, but not great, players.

 

[darko]

The team 100% is in need of a rebuild. Callahan, Girardi, MDZ, Nash, brassard, Richards. All of these are guys who could be or should be gone. Sorry Hank. The thing is that the team clearly functipons without Callahan so this isn't that big a deal. The team has been functioning without MDZ. The team has been functioning without Nash. Lose all 3 AND Girardi and the team will be set back in a significant way for a good 2 or 3 years. So? It happens. Just don't lose 3 of these guys for nothing which we seem to be about to do. Worse don't commit the future to these guys. I fully believe they will be pretty bad contracts for whoever signs them.

It wouldn't be a rebuild per say. More like a re-tool. You would be getting rid of guys that are dead weight (Richards) and guys that are soon going to become dead weight (Girardi, Callahan) while still keeping the core (Nash, Hank, Stepan, McDonagh, Kreider etc). Rebuild would mean we sell off what we have, bottom out and start over. They wont be doing that.

 

[I Eat Crow]

For the last time, this team needs to retool, not rebuild. Krieder, McDonagh, Stepan, Zuccarello, Hagelin, Miller, and Lundqvist are a very solid core to build around. The passengers and dead weight need to go. Callahan and Girardi should be traded because they're going to demand contract terms that are longer than their style of play will tolerate. They aren't going to be the same players 3 or 4 years from now, and we've already seen signs of decline from both of them. I actually have very little issue with the money they'll earn.

Trading Girardi and Callahan for a 1st and an NHL level ready prospect or close to NHL level prospect each hurts us in the immediate short term, but improves us in the not so distant long term. Two steps back now to take three to four steps forward in the next couple seasons.

 

[HatTrick Swayze]

Who cares? Just because atlanta sucked both before and after those deals doesn't mean we can't improve our team by trading players.

Trading them for a CHANCE to rebuild appears to be a much better option. It is up to the scouting dept and GM to make sure that this chance works out. Just bc Atlanta's scouting dept failed doesn't mean the NYR will. Diff situations, diff scouting dept, different team building philosophies, different prospect pools.

First of all "team building philosophies" - what's that? Again we are back to hoping and praying. Sounds about right. My only real point here is that the decision to "sell" (which would really be a half assed effort to begin with) is by no means a sure thing. Not as sure as people are expecting.

Girardi for Etem, Vatanen, and the 28th would be praised as highway robbery on here. I'm sure we'd see the "magician" picture. That has the potential to be Brassard, Dorsett, Moore 2.0. Maybe worse. The grass is always greener, especially with the "hope" of prospects.

 

[eco's bones]

Another thing--moving Girardi, Callahan likely to mean the Rangers do not make the playoffs this year and quite possibly the next upcoming year or two if decent replacements can't be found for them.

Henrik in the meantime gets older.

AV and coaching staff can begin to make over the team the way he wants but AV has worked with an established contending team for so long that I'd kind of wonder if he'd be the right guy for the job of working younger prospects into the lineup.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

First of all "team building philosophies" - what's that? Again we are back to hoping and praying. Sounds about right. My only real point here is that the decision to "sell" (which would really be a half assed effort to begin with) is by no means a sure thing. Not as sure as people are expecting.

Girardi for Etem, Vatanen, and the 28th would be praised as highway robbery on here. I'm sure we'd see the "magician" picture. That has the potential to be Brassard, Dorsett, Moore 2.0. Maybe worse. The grass is always greener, especially with the "hope" of prospects.

Its going in a different direction.

Of course selling off some pending free agents is no sure thing -- neither is retaining Girardi in Callahan. In fact, we've had them for years and haven't won squat.

 

[Off Sides]

While I am all for a rebuild/retool/not signing terrible contracts, under competent management and patient ownership.

Sather/Dolan are still here. I have no confidence they would do the right things for long enough for it to be any better than it is now.

The right thing to do would be to only offer contracts where the player left money on the table to stay. If they do not sign them they are sold. Draft/trade for well thought out youth with a team building plan in mind.

I don't think the Rangers management can do it.

 

[HatTrick Swayze]

Not well. I'd hate to give up either Girardi or Callahan--the problem is we might lose them anyway for nothing. Both have all the leverage in negotiating with Sather/Gorton. If the Rangers intend to sign either of them--they need to get at it.

This I fully agree with. I am not opposed to dumping the UFAs. Personally I would rather roll the dice on projecting who is likely to be terrible next year in the hopes of getting a top 5-10 pick. Like what Boston was able to get out Toronto. A lot more risk, but more potential reward. A few middling prospects and a late first is better than nothing but it isn't going to change the dynamics of the team.

 

[darko]

Also if we were to receive young players/prospects/draft picks in return I'm fairly confident the organisation will make good choices. We have a good trade history. Some may find it funny but we do draft well. We are one of the better drafting teams since early to mid 00s. Sure we don't have that 1st line PPG player everyone craves but you draft those with top-5 picks or you completely luck out. We also develop players well and give them every opportunity to succeed. Look at guys like Stepan, Hagelin, McDonagh and co.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

While I am all for a rebuild/retool/not signing terrible contracts, under competent management and patient ownership.

Sather/Dolan are still here. I have no confidence they would do the right things for long enough for it to be any better than it is now.

In my opinion, signing both Callahan and Girardi to 6-7 year contracts is "not doing the right thing."

 

[Off Sides]

In my opinion, signing both Callahan and Girardi to 6-7 year contracts is "not doing the right thing."

It's not in my opinion either but do you think Sather and company can get a retooling right? They have had like 5 real chances at it, pre Jagr, pre Drury/Gomez/Redden, pre Richards, pre Nash, pre Lundqvist resigning...

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

It's not in my opinion either but do you think Sather and company can get a retooling right? They have had like 5 real chances at it, pre Jagr, pre Drury/Gomez/Redden, pre Richards, pre Nash, pre Lundqvist resigning...

At the very least, it'll provide a bit more flexibility.

Sather is about to turn 71. Hes stepping down at some point. Perhaps part of his pathetic legacy can involve not hamstringing the next GM with long-term contracts involving Callahan and Girardi.

 

[silverfish]

Trade Callahan, keep Girardi.

If we can get two "A" prospects and a pick for Callahan, I pull the trigger on that deal 10 times out of 10.

 

[Off Sides]

At the very least, it'll provide a bit more flexibility.

Sather is about to turn 71. Hes stepping down at some point. Perhaps part of his pathetic legacy can involve not hamstringing the next GM with long-term contracts involving Callahan and Girardi.

I'd be all for it, but I don't see it going down like that.

Any real and true rebuild has to start with the GM and Ownership being on the same page.

Sather in my opinion is too much of a relic to rebuild the team.

Ownership is not interested in it, they have the Knicks, sky-bridges, franchise value, revenue and ratings on their mind.

 

[AlternateSideParking]

People who want to keep both guys will have to accpet that the team will continue to be mediocre, challenge for bottom seeds and always draft in the 16-21 range with just thier draft pick.

The Rangers need assets. They quickly promoted guys the last five or six years and they helped the team compete, but nothing to the level of a pernnial SC contender.

Trading Callahan and Girardi for picks and prospects might very well plunge the team into the Calgary/Islanders zone where they miss the playoffs every year and barely win 35 games.

Its a tough call. I say they are good enough to stem the tide of losing both as long as they get prospects who are as close to NHL ready as possible in addition to 1st round picks they can use to acquire newer, younger, cheaper versions of Callahan and Girardi.

 

[HockeyBasedNYC]

To be honest, I'd rather keep Girardi then Callahan given the durability factor. Girardi is always out there (knock on wood) and is playing in a position and playing minutes that is much more difficult to replace.

BUT, thats precisely the reason why you can get more in return for Girardi and if the right deal comes along they should jump on it.

Did it cross anyones mind that the Rangers could have the best of both worlds? You gotta think that both Cally and Girardi love it here the way they are treated. They want to win in NY.

Is it out of the realm of possibility that the Rangers could flip both of them, get 2 or 3 top prospects, a couple high picks and then resign 1 or 2 of them in the summer? Might be a stretch considering both of their UFA contracts will inflate significantly on the open market, but who knows, maybe the Rangers could retain one of them.

But that will go against what needs to be done:

The reality of the situation - You would have to think that both of them want to test free agency given the state of the Rangers. It would be down right silly on their part not to get themselves involved in a bidding war this summer. It would be sunset contracts for the both of them. No hometown discount and there shouldn't be. They both play a hard game and I'm not sure there are 2 other players in the league who are more deserving of a big payday, rising the ranks of the Rangers like they have, with little or no pedigree.

The next 8 months couldn't be more critical to the Rangers future. Maybe more so than at any other time since the Leetch "rebuild" attempt. They've locked up McDonagh, Stepan and Henrik going forward. Kreider is next. We are stuck with Nash. They have their coach. That is the core to build around. Tough decisions on UFA's like Callahan and Girardi. Decisions on Brassard, Boyle, Stralman and others. RFAs like Zucc and J. Moore. Trying to get something back for Del Zotto, who could quickly turn into another wasted first rounder. A must buy-out decision on Richards to free up space. The wheels are in motion.

If one thinks long term, the one thing that's not working in our favor is the Metropolitan division. The Rangers are currently 2 points out of a playoff spot and that could be the worst thing for their future. We all know this isnt a cup team. 2nd round exit. AT BEST. More of the same. Gotta hope the management sees this. This is right year to be sellers, something i'm not sure Sather has ever really done or is comfortable doing.

Is dealing just one of them half-assing it? I think if they commit themselves to a vision of how they want this team to be moving forward they need to be aggressive and stick with a plan. But given Sather's resume I'm not sure that its possible. There's never a clear vision.

One thing that is certain is that this team is going to look very different next season. They'll be a large turnover, again. They need to take a hard look at the team, identify the holes and build a plan. Will Henrik still be in his prime when it all comes together? Will it ever come together?

 

[AlternateSideParking]

Also, factor in losing Boyle and Richards next year as well.

So are the Rangers prepared to start next season without Callahan, Boyle, Richards and Girardi?

Say what you want about bang for the buck but the rangers cant afford to lose all for and gain nothing but cap space. That just gives Sather the incentive to overspend for new UFAs.

 

[GAGLine]

First of all "team building philosophies" - what's that? Again we are back to hoping and praying. Sounds about right. My only real point here is that the decision to "sell" (which would really be a half assed effort to begin with) is by no means a sure thing. Not as sure as people are expecting.

Neither is keeping the players. If we don't trade them, our choices are either to sign them long term or watch them sign with another team and get nothing for them. The latter option is unacceptable.

This team isn't good enough to contend even with Girardi and Callahan on the roster. How are we going to give them raises and improve the rest of the team enough to become a contender? What do we do if they break down? We haven't had a great track record with players on the wrong side of 30.

No matter what we do, it's a gamble.

Girardi for Etem, Vatanen, and the 28th would be praised as highway robbery on here. I'm sure we'd see the "magician" picture. That has the potential to be Brassard, Dorsett, Moore 2.0. Maybe worse. The grass is always greener, especially with the "hope" of prospects.

It has nothing to do with the grass being greener. It's about managing assets. If we were a cup contender, you'd have a point about not trading Girardi. But we haven't won with these players. Do you think that's going to change?

Tell me, what is your plan for improving this team? It's very easy to criticize and say that trading them won't help. Well, what's your solution? Free agent market? Stay the course and hope our own prospects can put us over the top?

 

[HatTrick Swayze]

People who want to keep both guys will have to accpet that the team will continue to be mediocre, challenge for bottom seeds and always draft in the 16-21 range with just thier draft pick.

The Rangers need assets. They quickly promoted guys the last five or six years and they helped the team compete, but nothing to the level of a pernnial SC contender.

Trading Callahan and Girardi for picks and prospects might very well plunge the team into the Calgary/Islanders zone where they miss the playoffs every year and barely win 35 games.

Its a tough call. I say they are good enough to stem the tide of losing both as long as they get prospects who are as close to NHL ready as possible in addition to 1st round picks they can use to acquire newer, younger, cheaper versions of Callahan and Girardi.

If I thought the bold were possible, I could get 100% on board. But with Henrik I just don't see that happening. Not to mention the fact that you know Dolan/Sather/GM will still be big players in UFA with the cap space.

I am under no illusion that the current core is that of a Cup contender. Again I just don't see the rental returns being the pieces that get them there.