Sanderson vs Seider vs Power vs Dobson

[notbias]

I'll never understand why people come up with these team arguments when talking about a player individually. Hockey is definitely a team game, you have 18 skaters and a goalie having various impacts on a game.

As an individual, he needed Zub to put up good numbers, overall he was alright, but with Zub he was good.

The thing with Ottawa is some people (not just Sens fans) crowned them too fast without looking at who was managing them. I declared after 7 games in the 2020-21 season that they would NOT go anywhere as long as Pierre Dorion was the GM and DJ Smith was the coach. Rest is history, and here we are now after Dorion dilapidated a huge part of this team's potential.

I just don't think Ottawa as a team is as good as their fans think.

Regarding the reasons why Ottawa struggled : coaching, goaltending, health (Norris and Chabot have been injured a lot these last few years, Stutzle had a bad season for his ability as he played injured all year, etc) and bad support/depth/roster poorly constructed. Jake Sanderson was 21 y/o and it's clear when watching the games how good he is.

Tkachuk being overrated.

Stutzle being overrated.

Sanderson being overrated.

Signing bad goalies.

No true stars (maybe Stutzle is one, but yet to be confirmed).

There are lots of reasons.

 

[Xspyrit]

As an individual, he needed Zub to put up good numbers, overall he was alright, but with Zub he was good.

More than 55 xGF% with all of Chychrun, Chabot and Zub

Lesser results with JBD, Brannstrom or Hamonic as expected. Smaller sample sizes though

Your "he was alright" claim is just an empty nugget

I just don't think Ottawa as a team is as good as their fans think.

Nobody (or close) claims that the team is good, wtf?

Tkachuk being overrated.

Stutzle being overrated.

Sanderson being overrated.

Signing bad goalies.

No true stars (maybe Stutzle is one, but yet to be confirmed).

There are lots of reasons.

Tkachuk, Stutzle and Sanderson are overrated? They're not "true stars"?

I mean, you basically have nothing to say. Not going to waste my time.

 

[notbias]

More than 55 xGF% with all of Chychrun, Chabot and Zub

Lesser results with JBD, Brannstrom or Hamonic as expected. Smaller sample sizes though

Your "he was alright" claim is just an empty nugget

So he needs to be carried by a good partner?

Nobody (or close) claims that the team is good, wtf?

Do you miss all the threads every offseason for Ottawa being a dark horse to do damage?

Tkachuk, Stutzle and Sanderson are overrated? They're not "true stars"?

I mean, you basically have nothing to say. Not going to waste my time.

Sorry they are stars, their team is doing great, my mistake.

 

[Golden_Jet]

More than 55 xGF% with all of Chychrun, Chabot and Zub

Lesser results with JBD, Brannstrom or Hamonic as expected. Smaller sample sizes though

Your "he was alright" claim is just an empty nugget



Nobody (or close) claims that the team is good, wtf?



Tkachuk, Stutzle and Sanderson are overrated? They're not "true stars"?

I mean, you basically have nothing to say. Not going to waste my time.

It’s definitely a waste of time, with the poster. Just making a poor troll attempt, as per history.

 

[Panthaz89]

The chart came out early in the season, but Detroit basically used him in the same way all year... His deployment was among the toughest in the cap era.

But you can't explain that to dorks who don't watch hockey and just read the BS that Dom Luszczynzynysnzycnsyzncysnzysn's computer spits out. That idiot's computer was telling him Jeff Petry was more valuable to Detroit than Seider last season.

I mean you can have tough deployment and not play well the Sabres did this with Ristolainen all the time.

 

[Aladyyn]

You think these 2 variables are the most important to evaluate the quality of a D-man?

Outscoring the other team is the most important thing in hockey.

 

[wintersej]

Power is last here, but it shouldn’t surprise anyone if five years from now this thread is bumped after Power wins a Norris. His tools are great and defensemen have weird development curves.

 

[notbias]

Power is last here, but it shouldn’t surprise anyone if five years from now this thread is bumped after Power wins a Norris. His tools are great and defensemen have weird development curves.

None of these D are winning a Norris (it'll be very unlikely at least).

The top tier of D is young enough and there are enough up-and-comers with higher ceilings... this is the tier behind the top young D.

 

[newfy]

You can build a chart with any name you want. This takes out everyone but these four. It gets a bit weird because x y scales get realigned depending on the values needed to plot in the chart. So if multiple charts get built you need to make sure you aren't just looking at the dots because the values attached to the placements can vary greatly.

And just to add a little bit of context to how difficult Seiders usage was last year... all of these dmen he is being compared to were closer in their deployment difficulty level to their teams bottom pair dmen than they were to Seider.

We're not talking about all of these guys playing hardest minutes on their teams and theyre actually pretty close with Seider...we're talking about a guy who had absurd, outlier for the last decade type usage to the point the athletic was writing articles about how they dont think their analytics can even probably track his on ice success and they actually might develop a new stat because of it.

 

[Aladyyn]

Yeah Seider has tough deployment but it's kinda hard to convince me that he'd swing the 25 goals he needs to match Power if he got "easier" minutes (note how nobody talks about quality of teammates which has always been the more important factor)

 

[Golden_Jet]

And just to add a little bit of context to how difficult Seiders usage was last year... all of these dmen he is being compared to were closer in their deployment difficulty level to their teams bottom pair dmen than they were to Seider.

lol, no they weren’t. Sanderson was also up there in tough deployment. Not as high as Seider but still high. Sandy better on the offense numbers on graph.

 

[newfy]

lol, no they weren’t. Sanderson was also up there in tough deployment. Not as high as Seider but still high. Sandy better on the offense numbers on graph.

Youre free to look it up yourself instead of talking out your ass. Seider's time against solid to elite players was as far from Sanderson as Sanderson was to Ottawas 5th/6th easiest deployments. The gap closes a bit when just talking about elite competition but the gap is still large.

Sanderson played a quarter of his ice time against the bottom 18 percent of the NHLs forwards, Seider played by far the least in the league. No ones deployment in the NHL was as close to as difficult as Seiders, in the last decade plus, barely anyone has done it. Sanderson played solid minutes for sure, and hes good. His minutes dont sniff Seiders though

PuckIQ

Hockey Analytics

puckiq.com

 

[Aladyyn]

Youre free to look it up yourself instead of talking out your ass. Seider's time against solid to elite players was as far from Sanderson as Sanderson was to Ottawas 5th/6th easiest deployments. The gap closes a bit when just talking about elite competition but the gap is still large.

Sanderson played a quarter of his ice time against the bottom 18 percent of the NHLs forwards, Seider played by far the least in the league. No ones deployment in the NHL was as close to as difficult as Seiders, in the last decade plus, barely anyone has done it. Sanderson played solid minutes for sure, and hes good. His minutes dont sniff Seiders though

PuckIQ

Hockey Analytics

puckiq.com

Cool stuff, I like the part where Sanderson and Power have significantly better numbers against all 3 levels of competition than Seider.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Youre free to look it up yourself instead of talking out your ass.

How is this talking out my ass.
Sanderson was also up there in tough deployment. Not as high as Seider but still high. Sandy better on the offense numbers on graph.

Seider's time against solid to elite players was as far from Sanderson as Sanderson was to Ottawas 5th/6th easiest deployments.

5/6 deployment Wow that’s BS, and that’s talking out your ass, vs what I said. Zub and Sanderson pair was listed as top 6 in the league in xGA/60 with over 500 minutes as a pair.
Sanderson/Zub pair was first over boards for PK, and matched against the other teams top lines (when coach gets his matchup at home).
Obviously on the road, the home coach gets last change, and can choose who he wants against whom.

The gap closes a bit when just talking about elite competition but the gap is still large.

Sanderson played a quarter of his ice time against the bottom 18 percent of the NHLs forwards, Seider played by far the least in the league. No ones deployment in the NHL was as close to as difficult as Seiders, in the last decade plus, barely anyone has done it. Sanderson played solid minutes for sure, and hes good. His minutes dont sniff Seiders though

PuckIQ

Hockey Analytics

puckiq.com

I don’t need to look it up, poster already posted the chart in this thread, Sanderson second amongst the 4 in deployment, in this thread. and in the top 10-20% of all( in the chart with everyone, but gets hard to read with everyone).

Obviously useless having a discussion with you, when post 5/6 deployment. That’s a joke of a post, saying that.

That like saying Seider gets third pairing matchups., that’s dumb as well.

Cool stuff, I like the part where Sanderson and Power have significantly better numbers against all 3 levels of competition than Seider.

Watch it, poster will tell you, you’re talking out of your ass lol.

 

[Gurglesons]

Dobson.

 

[Xspyrit]

So he needs to be carried by a good partner?

Good players are even better when they play with better players?

What a concept!

Do you miss all the threads every offseason for Ottawa being a dark horse to do damage?

They had a great roster on paper last season (Kubalik had 20 goals and 45 pts the season before and wasn't even a Top-9 forward on that squad when everyone was healthy). Poor coaching, poor goaltending, poor roster construction though and a few injuries away from being in trouble (which happened with Pinto, Norris and Chabot)

Even non-Sens fans were able to recognize that. I'm not talking about haters or newbies, just real hockey people who know/understand the sport

Sorry they are stars, their team is doing great, my mistake.

Again, coming back to the team argument, shortly after being told it was DUMB to.

It’s definitely a waste of time, with the poster. Just making a poor troll attempt, as per history.

Couldn't resist lol. You know how much I love to ridiculise trolls.

Outscoring the other team is the most important thing in hockey.

Tom Preissing was +40 at 28 y/o in 2006-07 and only played 103 NHL games after that.

Plus/Minus is a stat with a lot of grains of salt

 

[notbias]

Good players are even better when they play with better players?

What a concept!

Good players should still look good when not being propped up by others.

They had a great roster on paper last season (Kubalik had 20 goals and 45 pts the season before and wasn't even a Top-9 forward on that squad when everyone was healthy). Poor coaching, poor goaltending, poor roster construction though and a few injuries away from being in trouble (which happened with Pinto, Norris and Chabot)

So great on paper that they... finished 26th.

Even non-Sens fans were able to recognize that. I'm not talking about haters or newbies, just real hockey people who know/understand the sport

They were all wrong.

Again, coming back to the team argument, shortly after being told it was DUMB to.

Being told by who? Some idiot who thought the Sens were good?

Couldn't resist lol. You know how much I love to ridiculise trolls.

Would be nice if the team you were defending didn't suck.

 

[Aladyyn]

Good players are even better when they play with better players?

What a concept!



They had a great roster on paper last season (Kubalik had 20 goals and 45 pts the season before and wasn't even a Top-9 forward on that squad when everyone was healthy). Poor coaching, poor goaltending, poor roster construction though and a few injuries away from being in trouble (which happened with Pinto, Norris and Chabot)

Even non-Sens fans were able to recognize that. I'm not talking about haters or newbies, just real hockey people who know/understand the sport



Again, coming back to the team argument, shortly after being told it was DUMB to.



Couldn't resist lol. You know how much I love to ridiculise trolls.



Tom Preissing was +40 at 28 y/o in 2006-07 and only played 103 NHL games after that.

Plus/Minus is a stat with a lot of grains of salt

1. Nobody has said anything about plus/minus
2. Tom Preissing played 15 minutes a game on a 105-point team that went to the Stanley Cup finals. Surely an even remotely similar situation to Power playing 23 minutes a game heavily slanted towards 5on5 on a team that hasn't made the playoffs since he was 9 years old.

 

[Xspyrit]

Good players should still look good when not being propped up by others.

So great on paper that they... finished 26th.

They were all wrong.

Being told by who? Some idiot who thought the Sens were good?

Would be nice if the team you were defending didn't suck.

Yeah, so my first call was spot on. This call is ending because there's absolutely nobody at the end of the line...

1. Nobody has said anything about plus/minus
2. Tom Preissing played 15 minutes a game on a 105-point team that went to the Stanley Cup finals. Surely an even remotely similar situation to Power playing 23 minutes a game heavily slanted towards 5on5 on a team that hasn't made the playoffs since he was 9 years old.

1. You said "goal differential"...

2. It's not a comparison with Power, it was an example of how +/- can be misleading. Do you understand the nuance?

These 2 posts can't be serious...

 

[newfy]

How is this talking out my ass.
Sanderson was also up there in tough deployment. Not as high as Seider but still high. Sandy better on the offense numbers on graph.



5/6 deployment Wow that’s BS, and that’s talking out your ass, vs what I said. Zub and Sanderson pair was listed as top 6 in the league in xGA/60 with over 500 minutes as a pair.
Sanderson/Zub pair was first over boards for PK, and matched against the other teams top lines (when coach gets his matchup at home).
Obviously on the road, the home coach gets last change, and can choose who he wants against whom.

I don’t need to look it up, poster already posted the chart in this thread, Sanderson second amongst the 4 in deployment, in this thread. and in the top 10-20% of all( in the chart with everyone, but gets hard to read with everyone).

Obviously useless having a discussion with you, when post 5/6 deployment. That’s a joke of a post, saying that.

That like saying Seider gets third pairing matchups., that’s dumb as well.


Watch it, poster will tell you, you’re talking out of your ass lol.

Learn to read.

I didnt say hes got 5/6 D deployment lol. I said the difficulty of his minutes is as close to the 5/6 D on his team as he is to Seider on the other end. Everything youre saying about first over the boards and all that can still be true. Sanderson is playing hard minutes, but guess what, they werent all that close to Seiders minutes.

Thats why theres articles being written on the Athletic about how its hard to even gauge Seiders defensive impact with current advanced stats because hes such a ridiculous outlier. Not highest last season outlier, highest in a decade type numbers.

Turns out you do need to look it up after all lol

 

[Golden_Jet]

Learn to read.

I didnt say hes got 5/6 D deployment lol. I said the difficulty of his minutes is as close to the 5/6 D on his team as he is to Seider on the other end. Everything youre saying about first over the boards and all that can still be true. Sanderson is playing hard minutes, but guess what, they werent all that close to Seiders minutes.

Thats why theres articles being written on the Athletic about how its hard to even gauge Seiders defensive impact with current advanced stats because hes such a ridiculous outlier. Not highest last season outlier, highest in a decade type numbers.

Turns out you do need to look it up after all lol

I never said he wasn’t the highest deployed. Definitely not closer to bottom 5/6 than Seider.


Sandy is in the top 10-15%
Looking at graph
Seider +O.6
Sandy +0.3

Worst -0.6
Bottom 10-15%
-0.2 - (-0.6)

Halfway point is zero.

 

[EveryDay]

Dobson
Seider
Sanderson
Power

 

[BelovedIsles]

Dobson took his defensive game to another level this year. Asserting his size, using his reach, playing less passive. I expect him to continue the upward trajectory as he gets more reps and builds his confidence.

 

[Samsquanch]

Until he plateaus or takes a step backwards Im taking Sanderson. His floor is just ridiculously high imo, like at worse an elite #2 or low end #1.

Hes a freak athlete with a work ethic and level of dedication off the ice that would carry a talentless 4th line player through a 1000 game NHL career - except that he's also incredibly talented in every single facet of the game. No weakness, and a hunger to improve and work much harder than everyone despite being an elite talent. Like a Crosby or Tom Brady level of obsession with training and dedication away from the game.

And his insane hockey IQ as a two-way player is impossible not to notice when you watch him even for the most casual hockey fan, which speaks volumes about him as a Dman who doesnt play a flashy game (aside from the skating). You simply cant help but notice how good he is out there.

And being a +8 on last years Senators team as the #1D playing the hardest minutes cant be called anything less than a spectacular achievement. Charlie McAvoy was a +4 on the Bruins, and Miro Heiskanen was a +8 on the Stars to put some context into how insane that is for Sanderson in comparison.

Sanderson playing in front of a real goalie and on an improved defensive roster (fingers crossed) will be a Norris caliber dman sooner rather than later imo.

He might not ever post massive points (60-70+) like some of the other elite #1's, because he's just too dedicated defensively to cheat offensively, even if he has the skillset to play that way. But he legitimately might have a claim on being the most defensively sound and complete D in the game at some point in his career.

He honestly has the perfect toolset and mindset to be that hero level player that sacrifices 20-30 pts every year in exchange for quietly snuffing out an uncountable number of chances and goals going back the other way. Like a modern day Scott Niedermeyer, or the prime version of Ryan Suter in Nashville.

 

[Perfect_Drug]

Wow Dobson is underrated.

Here's a cheatsheet for hfBoards player rankings:

DMen with high point totals are all terrible defensively.

Forwards with 60 points are all amazing defensively. Forwards with 90 points are all terrible defensively.

+/- is used a confirmation bias stat. it means nothing if it goes against their narrative, but means a lot if it supports their narrative.



Hfboards never watch Dobson play. They go off that cheat-sheet