Prospect Info: San Jose Sharks #11 Prospect

Who is the #11 prospect for the Sharks?

  • Jack Thompson

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Jake Furlong

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Colton Roberts

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Mattias Havelid

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Magnus Chrona

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Georgi Romanov

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Christian Kirsch

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Yaroslav Korostelyov

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • David Klee

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Cam Lund

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Theo Jacobsson

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Reese Laubach

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Tristen Robins

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Axel Landen

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Joey Muldowney

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Artem Guryev

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Eli Barnett

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Michael Fisher

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Timofei Spitserov

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Valtteri Pulli

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    86
  • Poll closed .

hohosaregood

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Sep 1, 2011
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I suppose as with anything it’s down to opinion, but I absolutely do not see “good second line” potential in Gushchin or “good second pairing D” in LSW or Cagnoni at all. I see Gushchin as “okay 2nd liner on terrible team” or “solid 3rd liner on a team specifically constructed to allow their third line softer minutes”. I think a LOT of things would have to go right for either LSW or Cagnoni to even make the NHL, I don’t see any way either can be a true top-4 D. Small left-handed defensemen with non-elite skating and non-elite skill don’t tend to become top-4 on good teams.
I think that brings up the question of whether you would rather have an okay middle 6 scoring type a la Barabanov or a good bottom 6 guy like a Will Carrier. While it's lower in the line up and the roles are different, you could argue that someone could have "elite" potential as a depth role player.
 

Gecklund

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Jul 17, 2012
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I suppose as with anything it’s down to opinion, but I absolutely do not see “good second line” potential in Gushchin or “good second pairing D” in LSW or Cagnoni at all. I see Gushchin as “okay 2nd liner on terrible team” or “solid 3rd liner on a team specifically constructed to allow their third line softer minutes”. I think a LOT of things would have to go right for either LSW or Cagnoni to even make the NHL, I don’t see any way either can be a true top-4 D. Small left-handed defensemen with non-elite skating and non-elite skill don’t tend to become top-4 on good teams.
I think what’s missing here is I’m not talking about potential. I’m talking about ceiling which is what the comment said.
 
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Jul 10, 2010
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The point is ceiling. Which I would easily argue LSW, Gushchin, Cagnoni all have higher ceilings.


Time I learned a 2nd round pick is a late round pick.
okay, most realistic ceiling. Sure LSW and Cagnoni may have a 5% but Graf has a 30-40% shot at middle 6 wing.

And no i dont see Gush as anything. My guess is hes KHL bound next year
 
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Barrie22

Shark fan in hiding
Aug 11, 2009
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I love how you absolutely know this!
He has to improve his game significantly very soon, this season will be his 4th year being a pro hockey player. If he does not show anything promising this season he will be losing his spot (and most likely not re-signed) to ones that have potential like musty and haltunnen next season.

And him being nothing of note is closer to happening then him turning into a regular NHL player. If the team had hope for him, he would have more then 6 games at the NHL level in his first 3 years of being pro.
 

Gecklund

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He has to improve his game significantly very soon, this season will be his 4th year being a pro hockey player. If he does not show anything promising this season he will be losing his spot (and most likely not re-signed) to ones that have potential like musty and haltunnen next season.

And him being nothing of note is closer to happening then him turning into a regular NHL player. If the team had hope for him, he would have more then 6 games at the NHL level in his first 3 years of being pro.
Dude was a PPG on a terrible cuda team.
 
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sharks_dynasty

Registered User
Oct 25, 2006
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He has to improve his game significantly very soon, this season will be his 4th year being a pro hockey player. If he does not show anything promising this season he will be losing his spot (and most likely not re-signed) to ones that have potential like musty and haltunnen next season.

And him being nothing of note is closer to happening then him turning into a regular NHL player. If the team had hope for him, he would have more then 6 games at the NHL level in his first 3 years of being pro.
And he was injured for part of the year. He’s proven quite a bit with the Cuda and I am sure he will get a look at the big club this year.
 
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jMoneyBrah

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Jan 10, 2013
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He has to improve his game significantly very soon, this season will be his 4th year being a pro hockey player. If he does not show anything promising this season he will be losing his spot (and most likely not re-signed) to ones that have potential like musty and haltunnen next season.

And him being nothing of note is closer to happening then him turning into a regular NHL player. If the team had hope for him, he would have more then 6 games at the NHL level in his first 3 years of being pro.
Are we calling the 3 game AHL stint he had at the end of 21-22 his first year of being a pro hockey player? Seems uncharitable.

A more charitable framing might be he has put up solid AHL scoring numbers in his only two full pro seasons, progressing from 0.7 to 1.0PPG and earning an AHL All-Star nod.

Now, I do agree that this is a huge year for Guschin; his third full season. It seems like he’ll need to show that he can contribute something at the NHL level, and the Sharks should probably give him some opportunity to do that, as his 6 games thus far is probably a reflection on the Sharks as much as it is him.

Considering the current roster for the Sharks, barring a pretty significant string of injuries, it’s pretty hard to see where Guschin fits in even if he has a strong training camp (same for Bordeleau). I suspect, unless he absolutely rips up training camp and preseason, he’s most likely AHL bound for another season.
 
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timorous me

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Apr 14, 2010
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okay, most realistic ceiling. Sure LSW and Cagnoni may have a 5% but Graf has a 30-40% shot at middle 6 wing.

And no i dont see Gush as anything. My guess is hes KHL bound next year
Not sure about those percentages. I like Graf but he's almost four years older than Sahlin Wallenius. And it's not like LSW is tiny. He's an 18 year old defenseman who's six feet tall. I don't think in 3-4 years he's 8 times less likely than Graf to be showing similar,if not better, potential.
 

GRANdSharks

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I like gushchin don't get me wrong and I'm fine with him in this range but I don't really think it's realistic to expect top 6 upside he is at best maybe a top 9 scoring winger that can play on the 2nd unit and provide depth scoring. I don't think he has top line scoring potential.
 

OrrNumber4

Registered User
Jul 25, 2002
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Dude was a PPG on a terrible cuda team.
It seems clear to me that the organization doesn't think highly of Gushchin. His numbers have been solid, but ultimately the team hasn't given him much of a spot, and I don't see where he fits on the current roster. It's possible, though improbable, that the Sharks have misjudged Gushchin and he's actually ready for NHL duty and has top-6 potential...but even then it's not going to happen in a Sharks's jersey, so how high can he really rank?

Not sure about those percentages. I like Graf but he's almost four years older than Sahlin Wallenius. And it's not like LSW is tiny. He's an 18 year old defenseman who's six feet tall. I don't think in 3-4 years he's 8 times less likely than Graf to be showing similar,if not better, potential.
Right, but in those 3 extra years, Graf has improved his stock; he has a similar ceiling but is a safer bet. If Sahlin-Wallenius has Graf's same career trajectory (middling d+1, excellent D+2, and excellent D+3) then in the 2027 offseason his stock would also rise. There's a more-than-decent chance that he falls on his face in the men's league...
 
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Juxtaposer

Outro: Divina Comedia
Dec 21, 2009
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I'm more optimistic about Sahlin Wallenius, though I get the concerns about his upside. But I see a guy who's more mid-sized than small (6 feet with room to fill out), and while calling his skating elite might be a bit rich, everything I saw said he was one of the best skaters in the draft.

And while he did fall into the Sharks' laps later in the 2nd round, he was frequently seen as a guy with late-first potential. Anyway, I might just be a little biased because I love a good-skating d-man, and I have a soft spot for someone who gets dinged because he's just (just!) a complete player with no true standout/splashy tools.

I'm not going to expect more than a 3rd pairing guy, but with that complete package, good skating, and supposedly good smarts/vision, I don't see why his ceiling would't be as a 2nd pairing d-man.
Again, as silly as it sounds, 6’0” for a defenseman is now considered “undersized”.

Personally I’m not huge on Sahlin-Wallenius—while I didn’t hate the pick at all and realize that it was good value at 51, I would have preferred Mews. Why? Because while Mews definitely has his flaws, he also has traits that are clearly NHL-caliber in the offensive zone. When I look at Sahlin-Wallenius, I see a player with no glaring weaknesses who skates well, but I don’t see anything other than skating that he does at an NHL level. Doesn’t mean he can’t get there, but I prefer to take guys with one or two NHL-level traits and bet on him to get his flaws up to NHL-passable than to get a guy with no flaws but nothing that is clearly projectable to the NHL other than being a good skater. The exception to this would be if a guy has a clear B-game, a high floor, and a clear path to being valuable in a depth role. That would be picks like Wetsch, Roberts, and Misskey.

For me, you have to look at a guy’s likely scenario and ask, does this have any value at all? LSW is much more likely to be an NHL bottom-pairing quality player than Colton Roberts is, for example. But if LSW hits bottom-pairing level, is he all that valuable? No, in my opinion. As I’ve said before, small bottom-pairing left-handed defensemen with mediocre defensive abilities and no elite offensive skills rarely become valuable. Guys like that can be had for league minimum in August every year. While it’s much less likely to happen, if Roberts is able to hit his ceiling of ‘solid bottom pairing D’, he has way more value as a mobile 6’4” physical defensively-minded RHD.

So that is to say that’s less Sahlin-Wallenius can become a top-4 D, it’s kind of a waste of a pick. And I don’t love his odds to do that because of the lack of clear NHL qualities.
 

Gecklund

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Okay, I’ll bite. What’s the difference between ceiling and potential? To me that are interchangeable terms in this context.
If most things go right what are they is ceiling. Realistically though not everything will go right. Being more realistic is potential. For example if Halttunen fixes his skating and physicality/conditioning he could be a complimentary top line player. More realistically he won’t be able to completely fix both of those. I expect his actual potential to be something closer to middle 6.
 

Barrie22

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If most things go right what are they is ceiling. Realistically though not everything will go right. Being more realistic is potential. For example if Halttunen fixes his skating and physicality/conditioning he could be a complimentary top line player. More realistically he won’t be able to completely fix both of those. I expect his actual potential to be something closer to middle 6.
Everybody within the hockey world uses potential and ceiling as the same thing.
 
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Gecklund

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Everybody within the hockey world uses potential and ceiling as the same thing.
No they don’t. Not a single prospect person uses that interchangeable. Especially so soon after the draft.

How often do you see “if player puts it all together, they could be a top line player but more realistically they’ll end up a good third liner”
 

Juxtaposer

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Dec 21, 2009
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If most things go right what are they is ceiling. Realistically though not everything will go right. Being more realistic is potential. For example if Halttunen fixes his skating and physicality/conditioning he could be a complimentary top line player. More realistically he won’t be able to completely fix both of those. I expect his actual potential to be something closer to middle 6.
That makes literally no sense. Why would you say “his potential is 2nd liner, but if everything goes right he could be a 1st liner”? Potential means “this is the best case scenario”.
 

Barrie22

Shark fan in hiding
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No they don’t. Not a single prospect person uses that interchangeable. Especially so soon after the draft.

How often do you see “if player puts it all together, they could be a top line player but more realistically they’ll end up a good third liner”
Potential and ceiling means the very best they can get. They are one in the same.

What you are talking about is something totally different.

You can add words to the word potential, like floor potential to change the meaning, but potential by its self means the very best case scenario.
 

DG93

Registered User
Jun 29, 2010
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It seems clear to me that the organization doesn't think highly of Gushchin. His numbers have been solid, but ultimately the team hasn't given him much of a spot, and I don't see where he fits on the current roster. It's possible, though improbable, that the Sharks have misjudged Gushchin and he's actually ready for NHL duty and has top-6 potential...but even then it's not going to happen in a Sharks's jersey, so how high can he really rank?
I agree with this. I bet he is traded at some point as a sweetener piece in a package for an impact player
 

OrrNumber4

Registered User
Jul 25, 2002
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I agree with this. I bet he is traded at some point as a sweetener piece in a package for an impact player
I don't think so. It's more likely he's traded as a "get a chance somewhere else" deal, for a late-round pick, or is just lost on waivers. Comparable to the Afanasyev situation.
 
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jMoneyBrah

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Jan 10, 2013
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Everybody within the hockey world uses potential and ceiling as the same thing.

No they don’t. Not a single prospect person uses that interchangeable. Especially so soon after the draft.

How often do you see “if player puts it all together, they could be a top line player but more realistically they’ll end up a good third liner”

That makes literally no sense. Why would you say “his potential is 2nd liner, but if everything goes right he could be a 1st liner”? Potential means “this is the best case scenario”.

For fear of propagating a semantics argument, potential is simply a poor word for this purpose. The proper definition of potential, “showing or having the capacity to develop into something in the future,” is binary and does not by itself offer gradation. Something either has the potential to be something else or it doesn’t. To describe the quality of subject potential with clarity a modifier is required (e.g. high-end potential, limited potential, top-line potential, bottom-pairing potential, AHL starter potential, etc.)

In the context of hockey prospects I’ve always interpreted potential to mean the range between ceiling and floor projections of a prospect, containing a realistic/most-likely projection somewhere between the two. Where in this context projection means “forecast of a future outcome based on current knowledge.”

Now, if someone was to provide an unqualified projection (that is a projection without any description of what type of projection it is) I would interpret it as “a forecast of the most-likely outcome as of this moment” or “a realistic potential outcome”.

Likewise, if someone says “X has Y potential” without further qualification, I would interpret that as their ceiling projection, because people don’t typically use this sort of language to describe some intermediate point in a range. While they could, and it could technically be true, that person would be a pedantic asshole. Typically people prefer to highlight either end of a spectrum. And as the floor potential for the large majority of prospects is “not an NHL player” there is little utility in using this convention to highlight floor projections. But really, using potential in this way without any clarifying language is just pretty ambiguous.

So the language I would use, and I think what I’ve seen in some places, is “Celebrini has franchise player ceiling, projects as a top-line center, and has a top-6 floor” where the last bit is optional, as the floor projection for most prospects can safety be assumed as “not an NHL player”.

In short, y’all are Englishing wrong :sarcasm:
 
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