Sam Rosen was right (Historical impact of Rangers' roster moves)

[Trxjw]

Can we please lose the "Hank's window" excuse? Before that it was Jagr's and before that Leetch's and before that Messier's. It's ALWAYS some good player's window coming to a close. When Hank's is over, McDonagh will be next.

There are two ways to address it - perpetually plugging holes with older players whose best years were elsewhere. And building a system that always has new players primed to step in as the old ones fade off into the sunset (or, you know, get traded to a team like the Rangers). The latter tends to win a lot more than the former.

This was a pivotal moment. We had a chance to stick our stake in the ground for the latter model. We went for the former. It feels a lot like 1997 to me. I sincerely hope we're not about to go on a similar 7-year run like the one that followed that...

Exactly. The fact that "Hank's window" is closing only proves that this management has no idea what they're doing. It's their fault that they're in this position. It's not as if he's some player we just acquired and have had a limited history with. He's been here for nearly 10 years. TEN! Ten years of arguably the best goalie in the world and this team has had one trip to the conference finals in that time span.

If they had taken the time to formulate a plan, figure out what kind of team this was going to be, 10 years is more than enough time to build a team and have multiple years of being a legitimate contender. I find it very disturbing that there's this mantra about window's closing, and yet people just skirt around the fact that the window has been wide open for nearly a decade.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

How many, in your mind, current legitimate top line centers were drafted outside of the top 10 picks, or wasn't a product of the 2003 draft?

Kopitar? 11th pick
Datsyuk - '98 draft
Giroux - 22nd pick

I'm being a bit facetious with those odds, but not by a lot.

Ohhh fun! Is this like removing the first 10 games of this season?

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

Exactly. The fact that "Hank's window" is closing only proves that this management has no idea what they're doing. It's their fault that they're in this position. It's not as if he's some player we just acquired and have had a limited history with. He's been here for nearly 10 years. TEN! Ten years of arguably the best goalie in the world and this team has had one trip to the conference finals in that time span.

If they had taken the time to formulate a plan, figure out what kind of team this was going to be, 10 years is more than enough time to build a team and have multiple years of being a legitimate contender. I find it very disturbing that there's this mantra about window's closing, and yet people just skirt around the fact that the window has been wide open for nearly a decade.

Couldnt agree more.

In 1994, Neil Smith had a 54 year drought hanging over his head. He also had a core involving Messier, Leetch, Graves, and Richter. THATS a reason to go for it.

Nowadays, the fanbase finds any friggin excuse to beat the drum of going for it all right now. I love Lundqvist, but he cant be the reason this team haphazardly throws rosters together in a futile attempt to win immediately. It hasn't worked, and it wont work. The rest of the roster just isn't strong enough for it.

 

[Off Sides]

Look at Pitt, Chi, and Bos... all three were terrible at before they were good, and one day they will be terrible again.


Top picks guarantee nothing!

Their picks helped them be very good, good enough to win the cup.

No guarantee, but much better odds of actually winning it some year.

Rangers are never going to be terrible to the point they will ever get those picks, their business model does not allow for it. Even when they do get in that range, they take players who have no chance to break that cycle, but that is just poor management.

Therefor since they never get those picks, or they mess them up when they get close to them, they will never be good enough to do what those teams have done.

That is how the Rangers cycle differs from those teams.

 

[Trxjw]

I don't believe that the 11-12 team was a true cup contender, but it was definitely the one team we've had that played well above it's collective level of talent.

11 players remain on this roster from that team. In less than two years, Sather has turned over half the roster of the most successful team we've had in almost 20 years. Incredible.

 

[Bluenote13]

How many, in your mind, current legitimate top line centers were drafted outside of the top 10 picks, or wasn't a product of the 2003 draft?

Kopitar? 11th pick
Datsyuk - '98 draft
Giroux - 22nd pick

I'm being a bit facetious with those odds, but not by a lot.

First answer me how many 7th round drafted goalies are legitimate superstars in todays game?

Point is, you find the talent through good scouting and ability to stockpile draft picks.

YEARS ago we were in line to bottom out, the difference between us and the Pitts and Hawks and Lightning and Kings is that they did just that ! They played the cards they were dealt instead of going for quick grabs here and there just to 'get in and anything could happen'.

 

[jskramer83]

Stepan - 23
Kreider - 22
Hagelin - 25
MZA - 26
MCD - 24
Staal - 27

Fast - 22
Miller - 20
Lindberg - 22
MCI - 21

Looks like there's a decent pipeline there

27 is considered retirement age on this board

 

[Matt Rentfree]

And this one will last a lifetime. It sure will. Because it is moves like yesterday's that remind me over and over again about why it is that the Rangers are among the least successful franchises in NHL history. Heck, maybe all of sports.

We are now over a third of the way to another 54 years without a Cup. We have had what, one Cup victory, several Cup finals appearances and a handful of conference finals in effectively 75 years? Since '94, who is worse than the Rangers? The Oilers? Islanders? Panthers? What sterling, pristine company that is.

Haven't we seen the script for this before? We traded for Bure and gave up nothing! What a great trade. We got Anson Carter and gave up nothing! What a great move. Just what the team needs. We traded for Jagr and gave up nothing! What a great trade!! We traded for St. Louis!! WOW, what a great trade.

Except, except, except.....he does not really make this team a contender does he? he does not mask the many flaws that mar the team. Heck, Jackass himself said it yesterday when asked if the Rangers were a Cup contender. He did not say yes. He just said that they are capable now of going further than before. Isn't this the same idiot who said that the goal each year is to win the Cup? That anything but is failure?

We know this path all too well. Once the Rangers exit the playoffs again, knee jerk moves will be made to address perceived flaws. And why? Because Jackass has now made this a WIN NOW team. One that has to win it all either this year or next. That is frightening. That leads to trading of more picks and more prospects in order to WIN NOW. The off season moves will be done to WIN NOW. Who will be the new version of Holik? Kasperitis? Oliwa?

Moves done in a vacuum. Without any thought of the future. Without any thought of a plan. Without any plotting of a course. As of today, we do not have a first round pick in 2 of the next 4 years. There is a possibility that can move to 3 out of 4 years. Is this what the Rangers can afford. Haven't we been there, done that already?

Jackass admitted there were two trades. One that helps the team in the future and one that is made for RIGHT NOW. He, as is his mo, went for the instant gratification, preferring long-term pain. We know how this goes. When the moves done to WIN NOW (this year or next) fail, what will the Rangers be left with?

Jackass will retire. Dolan will bring in Gretzky to GM. Or better yet, Messier to be coach and Gretzky to be GM. And the long, long road to another 54 years will continue.

And this one will last a life time. Indeed.

While I agree with all of this, and want Sather gone as much as the next guy, a lot of the blame needs to be laid at the feet of ownership. There is NO WAY Dolan would ever allow a full rebuild in the mold of what Buffalo and Edmonton are doing, no matter who the GM of this team is. Smith basically traded away our entire future (except Zubov who got traded after we won - thanks Mess) to win a cup - nothing has changed just because Sather is at the helm.

 

[Ruggs225]

Their picks helped them be very good, good enough to win the cup.

No guarantee, but much better odds of actually winning it some year.

Rangers are never going to be terrible to the point they will ever get those picks, their business model does not allow for it. Even when they do get in that range, they take players who have no chance to break that cycle, but that is just poor management.

Therefor since they never get those picks, or they mess them up when they get close to them, they will never be good enough to do what those teams have done.

That is how the Rangers cycle differs from those teams.

I think that Hank or having a good goalie is usually why we don't get those high picks. Also we were certainly poised to bet right up there in the Crosby draft if not for the lockout. And the times we have had top 10 picks it has always came on crap draft years which is bad luck. And to compound it we also had a franchise goalie's career cut short, a top prospect die, and another very good young NHL dman's career end by injury. More crap luck.

Right now we don't have a goalie of the future... if hank falters we will be back in the top 10 range... it's not going to happen in the next 3 or 4 years.

 

[Off Sides]

27 is considered retirement age on this board

UFA to be next season, made they can trade him, a 1st and 2nd for Selänne

 

[Ian]

Ohhh fun! Is this like removing the first 10 games of this season?

No, that's called cherry picking. This is adjusting for a statistical anomaly, with arguably the greatest draft year of all time.

But even if you want to whine about it and miss the point, feel free to add it.

So let's add Getzlaf, Bergeron, Richards and Kesler (with the last two being extremely generous).

So that's 7 1st line centers outside of the top 10 picks drafted in the past 16 years, unless you'd like me to add any players to that.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

I don't believe that the 11-12 team was a true cup contender, but it was definitely the one team we've had that played well above it's collective level of talent.

11 players remain on this roster from that team. In less than two years, Sather has turned over half the roster of the most successful team we've had in almost 20 years. Incredible.

That team had a foundation of grit and work ethic that is tough to come by. The limits of that squad should've been identified, and then management should've worked to add the necessary pieces -- without the massive turnover that actually ensued.

 

[Off Sides]

Right now we don't have a goalie of the future... if hank falters we will be back in the top 10 range... it's not going to happen in the next 3 or 4 years.

So because the Rangers did not plan on having a goalie beyond Hank, it makes this trade and ones like it good moves?

Seems like they created their own "window"

 

[Off Sides]

While I agree with all of this, and want Sather gone as much as the next guy, a lot of the blame needs to be laid at the feet of ownership. There is NO WAY Dolan would ever allow a full rebuild in the mold of what Buffalo and Edmonton are doing, no matter who the GM of this team is. Smith basically traded away our entire future (except Zubov who got traded after we won - thanks Mess) to win a cup - nothing has changed just because Sather is at the helm.

That is my take as well, unless ownership changes the mandate to being a true contender and is willing to be patient through the process no matter how it effects the marketability of the short term team, there is no changing.

I do believe some of the moves may be better, some maybe worse, but overall the net organization strength in terms of the team on the ice will remain about the same.

 

[Ruggs225]

That team had a foundation of grit and work ethic that is tough to come by. The limits of that squad should've been identified, and then management should've worked to add the necessary pieces -- without the massive turnover that actually ensued.

The problem is that the necessary pieces were SKILL. That is very expensive and hard to come by. So they paid the price. I still think that this team is better than the 2011-2012 team, and it is without a doubt more entertaining.

 

[pld459666]

Not defending Sather at all.

BUT...

Does Dolan have any input here?

 

[Ruggs225]

So because the Rangers did not plan on having a goalie beyond Hank, it makes this trade and ones like it good moves?

Seems like they created their own "window"

No, we have a window now because we have the best goalie in the NHL and one of the best defenses in the NHL.

 

[Ian]

First answer me how many 7th round drafted goalies are legitimate superstars in todays game?

Point is, you find the talent through good scouting and ability to stockpile draft picks.

YEARS ago we were in line to bottom out, the difference between us and the Pitts and Hawks and Lightning and Kings is that they did just that ! They played the cards they were dealt instead of going for quick grabs here and there just to 'get in and anything could happen'.

Not many? Not sure what that has to do with anything, besides proving that the draft is an absolute crapshoot and the myth that "good scouting" is the difference maker hasn't been true for quite some time. Obviously there are clear misses every now and again, but it's basically luck and timing more so than anything else.

Edmonton, Calgary, NYI and Florida all seem to be "playing the cards they were dealt" too, I'm sure their fans are happy they've been stockpiling those picks.

 

[jskramer83]

UFA to be next season, made they can trade him, a 1st and 2nd for Selänne

Who needs Selanne when the 1st and 2nd are 100% guaranteed to be the future of this origination and lead them to the promised land.

 

[Bluenote13]

Not many? Not sure what that has to do with anything, besides proving that the draft is an absolute crapshoot and the myth that "good scouting" is the difference maker hasn't been true for quite some time. Obviously there are clear misses every now and again, but it's basically luck and timing more so than anything else.

Edmonton, Calgary, NYI and Florida all seem to be "playing the cards they were dealt" too, I'm sure their fans are happy they've been stockpiling those picks.

You really think Edm, Cal, NYI, FLA are similar organizations to LA, CHI, PIT, BOS, NYR ? Look at the whole picture, not just the records. Those teams have had no choice to gain picks for a reason, and they still ALL have better looking prospects going forward.

The Rangers along with those major cities have no trouble with cap space and getting players to sign on, can you see the difference between those perennial bottom feeders and the ones I mentioned ?

 

[Off Sides]

No, we have a window now because we have the best goalie in the NHL and one of the best defenses in the NHL.

Not sure how that is quantified?

 

[Off Sides]

Who needs Selanne when the 1st and 2nd are 100% guaranteed to be the future of this origination and lead them to the promised land.

Who needs draft picks when like 99% of NHL player come from it?

 

[pld459666]

can anyone tell me what the Sharks were rumored to have offered?

I don't remember reading of their interest at all.

some help?

 

[Off Sides]

it is without a doubt more entertaining.

That much I agree on, I find this team more entertaining to watch than many of the previous generations.

As far as winning now or in the future, gonna still have to disagree on that one but no reason to try to sway each others opinion, time will tell.

 

[stan the caddy]

The reason why the Rangers haven't won a cup is due to a lack of talent. The Rangers just went out and got one of the most talented players in the league. I don't see the problem.