Sam Rosen was right (Historical impact of Rangers' roster moves)

  • Xenforo Cloud will be upgrading us to version 2.3.5 on March 3rd at 12 AM GMT. This version has increased stability and fixes several bugs. We expect downtime for the duration of the update. The admin team will continue to work on existing issues, templates and upgrade all necessary available addons to minimize impact of this new version. Click Here for Updates
Status
Not open for further replies.
Stop spinning the narrative to support a negative stance. :sarcasm:

That one particular quote is not an example of doing that. You cornered the market on that earlier though. She is however focusing in a single exaggeration that I made while simultaneously ignoring the rationale behind making the statement, the clarification that preceded it and the clarification that followed it. Now why would she do that? Why would you? Hmmmm

:)

Except it's not spin - it's his exact words!!!

I said other exact words too. Words which should have made it so that you wouldn't have to constantly harp on a single sentence. Yet you ignored those exact words. Why are you emphasizing just a single sentence rather than everything else which clarifies and explains thoroughly what my point is? Seems like you had a pretty weak stance and can't defend it much.
 
Last edited:
"I just hope that tonight the lamestream media won't twist my words by repeating them verbatim." --Sarah Palin (ok, Tina Fey)

Good quote only it doesn't apply here. I didn't say one single sentence did I? No I said quite a few. Including many which are being purposely ignored even though they'd eliminate the need to constantly harp on that one sentence.
 
So saying that Sather's tenure blows away most other franchises is rational, per you. Which means, and tell me if I am wrong, that your view during Sather's time in office is that the Rangers are one of the most successful teams in the league?

What is invented? Even before trading away picks, is the organization ranked among the worst when it comes to prospects? Saying that there is exactly 1 Cup in 70+ years is not invented. True or not true: Under Sather the biggest success was reaching ECF ONCE. What is invented? True or not true, that as of today you can count the amount of top-2 line forwards drafted and developed as less than a handful? What is invented? How many playoff series wins have the Rangers had in 15 years? What invented?

But again, this is not just about one trade or one move or even one year. This is about the failure of an entire organization. The LATEST of which is the tenure of Jackass, which most would describe as disastrous.

Is it rationale by me or is it one single sentence which I've clearly explained does not accurately and best represent my thoughts on the matter? I did already say what does more accurately represent my rationale and you choose to ignore it.

Being better than some doesn't mean being the best so no you are incorrect.

In the last few pages I called out a few instances of inventing , twisting or exagerrating negatives. Interestingly enough nobody jumped on those statements for being incorrect, ridiculous, illogical, etc. You can be sure that as soon as I said one thing that was exaggerated you guys tried to jump all over it while ignoring everything else. Even AFTER I've explained that it was hyperbole and that I should have chosen different words to represent my actual thought process you continue to distract from the actual point to focus on that one sentence. I said blew away and I said most. I've ALSO said that I should have said "compares favorably" and that I exaggerated.( It's worth pointing out that nobody actually bothered to use any facts or stats to contradict that point.)

. Regardless I've previously explained I should have said "compares favorably" to more accurately represent my thoughts. Are you having reading comprehension difficulties because I was quite clear when I typed that...repeatedly.

How do you rate success? Some people argue the ECF appearance is meaningless. Some people argue a 2nd round appearance is meaningless. Others argue just making the PO's is meaningless. It's for you to determine what constitutes success but that doesn't mean you're correct even if others agree with you it could be b/c of entitlement and mob mentality. "Most would describe" isn't worth much if "most" are biased and irrational which may be the case here.
 
Lol yeah.

Pot, meet Kettle.

That phrase doesn't apply to me here. Refer to the last few pages. Y'know the everything else you've been skipping while obsessing over 1 single sentence. Feel free to explain how this is an example of pot meet kettle though. It ius interesting that you did not try to show why your stance is strong or makes more sense.
 
Is it rationale by me or is it one single sentence which I've clearly explained does not accurately and best represent my thoughts on the matter? I did already say what does more accurately represent my rationale and you choose to ignore it.
So let's just start anew. Since Sather took over, how many franchises have the Rangers fared much better than?
In the last few pages I called out a few instances of inventing , twisting or exagerrating negatives.
Pretty sure that all your points have been addressed
. Regardless I've previously explained I should have said "compares favorably" to more accurately represent my thoughts.
Compare favorably then. That means that they are doing at least as good as if not better. Since Sather took over, how many organizations do the Rangers compare favorably to?
How do you rate success? Some people argue the ECF appearance is meaningless. Some people argue a 2nd round appearance is meaningless. Others argue just making the PO's is meaningless.
Let's start with advancing past the first round of the playoffs. Since Sather took over, how many times has that happened? Then let's throw in prospect strength to understand how an organization fares for the future.
 
That phrase doesn't apply to me here. Refer to the last few pages. Y'know the everything else you've been skipping while obsessing over 1 single sentence. Feel free to explain how this is an example of pot meet kettle though.

I already acknowledged way back in post #785 that you meant to say Sather's tenure 'compares favorably', when you actually said his tenure 'blows most other franchises away'.

'Compares favorably' is certainly debatable, and not as ridiculous as your first statement.
 
Okay. I was talking about McD, which you've skirted twice now. I'll save you the "a broken clock is right twice a day" and we can throw out Sather's greatest success in recent history based on an arbitrary decision that it doesn't matter because...something.

It is a lazy exercise because it makes your points weak. One cannot just arbitrarily lop of data points when evaluating what an organization is like. If you have an investment and it does nothing but loose money for you and then suddenly has a few good years of returns but is still an overall negative...guess what? You still have a loosing trade.

You traded the core of a winning close nit team for that of underachievers.

As for what I based it on, that is several things. But let's just go with one. I have said several times that I am fortunate enough to be privy to certain events. One of which was a Rangers luncheon with, among others, Dave Maloney. He likened the trades to that which tore apart the team that went to the finals against Montreal. All in an effort to "get over the top".

Great, but overall he has been awful. Which means that the team could not have possibly been very good, from year to year.

Those are fine moves. They however do not make up for other bad ones. Nor do they make up for the fact that the organization has not been an overall success.

No to me, they do not cancel out what his overall record is. In ALL of his tenure, how many top-6 forwards got developed? And I do not view as MSL being acquired for nothing. I view it as Jackass bidding against himself and squandering assets. The MCD trade and picking up Stralman off of the scrapheap by themselves do not qualify as making the organization an overall success.

And then what happened? After that team was allowed to grow together? Typical Sather.

Who dismantled it?

See, to me, talking about GM moves in the scope of the team that currently exists isn't "arbitrarily lopping off data points," it's talking about the here and now rather than doting on the past. The investment metaphor isn't really an apt one because Sather isn't our choice, we don't pay him, and his value effects us in no way at all. If we were grading him as his own owner that'd apply, but we're not in that position, we're grading him as fans of the current Rangers team.

When I look at the team that is the Rangers right now, I see a lot of smart moves paying off in McD, Stralman, Zucc, and Brass as a return from the Gaborik trade. I see Gaborik, who is a shell of himself when he was here, falling off the map in another city while the scoring RW the Rangers acquired to replace him is still chugging along. I don't see much fallout from past mistakes, Drury, Gomez, Redden, and the like. It's hard not to imagine what things could have been like with a better 2003 draft, I'll give you that, but aside from a poor draft, which nearly every franchise has had, what bad decisions are lingering today? You'd say the Nash trade and it's effects. I'd disagree. Either way, I'd argue that there is not nearly enough fallout from bad decisions to cover up the good that some savvy moves are currently doing for this team. McD alone is a huge, huge deal.
 
I don't consider making the playoffs to be a successful season, and that bar is set too low, but I do consider winning a round and being in the final 8 to be a successful season and we've only done that 4 times in Sather's tenure. Even pointing to 4 times since the 04 lockout doesn't look all that much better.

He doesn't get credit for Lundqvist either, since he wasn't running that draft. Unless someone was referring to Hank and Gretzky, I don't know who the other player who was "one of the best ever" that was dropped into his lap.

But I digress. This is ALL luck. Nothing more, nothing less. The Rangers are an unlucky organization. Yes, there have been bad decisions and yes, there have been good decisions, but luck is the overriding factor in all of this. The year in the Rangers tenure where they would probably be the worst under Sather was the year that was cancelled and also contained the best player in a generation. That's bad luck. But nobody ever talks about how good the luck is with a team like the Penguins, who happened to be so bad in the year Malkin and Ovechkin were there and not the year that Stefan was the consensus #1. That's simply luck and nothing else. The only thing you can really do is try to identify talent as best as possible (still dictated by luck) and then build an organization and culture that can maximize the players that you get. On the latter, I think the Rangers since 2004 have been pretty good. I don't know how to criticize a GM for not drafting elite offensive talent when luck plays such a large role in any of this. If you aren't drafting early in a year that turns out to be good, then you have to find that talent in the middle part of the 1st round or later... and that is certainly luck too.

Great post. Everyone seems to forget that the Rangers have had some horrible luck when it comes to career ending (or worse) injuries. Just in the last decade we've lost Cherneski, Cherepanov, Sauer, and Blackburn. The Pens nor the Blackhawks haven't permanently lost one impact player to injuries in the last decade.

Ask most people in the NHL would they make the MSL trade and you'd be shocked how many would tell you that Sather made out like a bandit. Bottom line of any trade is he who gets the best player in the trade usually wins the trade. Go back the last 5, 10 or even 20 years. Look at all the big trades. Guaranty you that in most of them the team that got the best player was the winner.

Trash Sather all you want but he's been just as if not more successful then most executives in the NHL. So many here worship Davidson and Maloney. I've asked before and still ask - how many Cup winners have they built. How long has Maloney been in Phoenix? What has he done? The Rangers haven't been able to win the cup so Sather is a failure. I guess that means 25 or so GMs in the NHL have been just as miserable during the last decade. Makes sense :amazed:
 
So let's just start anew. Since Sather took over, how many franchises have the Rangers fared much better than?

Pretty sure that all your points have been addressed

Compare favorably then. That means that they are doing at least as good as if not better. Since Sather took over, how many organizations do the Rangers compare favorably to?

Let's start with advancing past the first round of the playoffs. Since Sather took over, how many times has that happened? Then let's throw in prospect strength to understand how an organization fares for the future.

The onus is on you too then. Which ones WEREN'T they better then? Which stats and data are you using to support this? Are the things you choose to use in order to form your opinion arbitrary? My argument is against emphasizing the negative due to bias simply to support arbitrary opinions as if they are fact. You want to prove that your stance ISN'T overly negative? Be my guest.

Addressing a point poorly or barely at all doesn't mean much.

How did other franchises do in terms of making the PO's? Advancing past round 1? 2? 3? Winning it all? How many basement seasons did they have? How many seasons were there where the team just barely missed the PO's. Get this for all the teams and we'd at least have a START in doing more than sharing our own opinions as if they are fact.
 
See, to me, talking about GM moves in the scope of the team that currently exists isn't "arbitrarily lopping off data points," it's talking about the here and now rather than doting on the past. The investment metaphor isn't really an apt one because Sather isn't our choice, we don't pay him, and his value effects us in no way at all. If we were grading him as his own owner that'd apply, but we're not in that position, we're grading him as fans of the current Rangers team.

When I look at the team that is the Rangers right now, I see a lot of smart moves paying off in McD, Stralman, Zucc, and Brass as a return from the Gaborik trade. I see Gaborik, who is a shell of himself when he was here, falling off the map in another city while the scoring RW the Rangers acquired to replace him is still chugging along. I don't see much fallout from past mistakes, Drury, Gomez, Redden, and the like. It's hard not to imagine what things could have been like with a better 2003 draft, I'll give you that, but aside from a poor draft, which nearly every franchise has had, what bad decisions are lingering today? You'd say the Nash trade and it's effects. I'd disagree. Either way, I'd argue that there is not nearly enough fallout from bad decisions to cover up the good that some savvy moves are currently doing for this team. McD alone is a huge, huge deal.

Exactly. I'm just saying that the negatives are emphasized too much and the positives are ignored or minimized too much. Which you just said in so many words and I've said repeatedly and yet they keep trying to get away from that and move the goal posts over and over waiting for any sort of error that they can pounce on and avoid the actual point. It's a very frequently used tactic around here ESPECIALLY when this topic comes up and I actually said it would happen a few pages back.

Now if an individual feels the positives do not outweigh the negatives then that is fine but I have yet to see anyone really show with any sort of finality that something like (one example) the Redden trade really caused much of an issue. (Which got twisted by them of course). I did see someone argue that I was insane for saying it had no effect at all but then I pointed out that "not causing a real issue" is different from "having no effect at all"

I've yet to see anyone justify the AMOUNT of pessimism and negativity towards Sather specifically. A certain level may be warranted but I don't think the level we see here is warranted.
 
Last edited:
Who are we comparing the Rangers and Sather to?

Seems like to make any fair comparison we'd have to eliminate the teams who have had or still have financial issues, who do not spend to the cap, have had unstable ownership, or are in unattractive locations for free agents.
 
Who are we comparing the Rangers and Sather to?

Seems like to make any fair comparison we'd have to eliminate the teams who have had or still have financial issues, who do not spend to the cap, have had unstable ownership, or are in unattractive locations for free agents.

Fair point. You can't even compare Sather to Garth Snow, who has to make all of his decisions through a committee, and has all the other problems you mentioned above.
 
I already acknowledged way back in post #785 that you meant to say Sather's tenure 'compares favorably', when you actually said his tenure 'blows most other franchises away'.

'Compares favorably' is certainly debatable, and not as ridiculous as your first statement.

You acknowledged it once but then continued to post as if you had never acknowledged it so it doesn't matter.
 
Who are we comparing the Rangers and Sather to?

Seems like to make any fair comparison we'd have to eliminate the teams who have had or still have financial issues, who do not spend to the cap, have had unstable ownership, or are in unattractive locations for free agents.

Why would they have to be utterly eliminated? They may have to lose more which puts them in prime position to get the top draft choices for very cheap which leaves room to sign/retain UFa nand RFA while meeting the cap floor.. Sather on the other hand would have to purposely let the team lose. Both teams are in circumstances which provide advantages and disadvantages overall. Should we then eliminate all teams who had cap space when the market was poor vs when the market was good? Should we eliminate teams who had high draft picks in bad years? I don't see a legitimate reason for deciding to shrink the sample size based on one single criteria.
 
Who are we comparing the Rangers and Sather to?

Seems like to make any fair comparison we'd have to eliminate the teams who have had or still have financial issues, who do not spend to the cap, have had unstable ownership, or are in unattractive locations for free agents.

Sather's financial advantage ended n 2006. Nowadays, most teams spend to the cap. If anything, being the GM of a NY based franchise hurts him because players ask for more money due to the cost of living.

He's done a real solid job over the last 3-4 with the exception of pretending the team was better than they actually were and throwing the coach under the bus.
 
Why would they have to be utterly eliminated? They may have to lose more which puts them in prime position to get the top draft choices for very cheap which leaves room to sign/retain UFa nand RFA while meeting the cap floor.. Sather on the other hand would have to purposely let the team lose. Both teams are in circumstances which provide advantages and disadvantages overall. Should we then eliminate all teams who had cap space when the market was poor vs when the market was good? Should we eliminate teams who had high draft picks in bad years? I don't see a legitimate reason for deciding to shrink the sample size based on one single criteria.

That's your opinion. I agree with Offsides.

Put Sather's record up against other GM's who can spend freely and have an attractive free agency destination (i.e. NOT your example of the Islanders), and Sather does not look quite so rosy.
 
Why would they have to be utterly eliminated? They may have to lose more which puts them in prime position to get the top draft choices for very cheap which leaves room to sign/retain UFa nand RFA while meeting the cap floor.. Sather on the other hand would have to purposely let the team lose. Both teams are in circumstances which provide advantages and disadvantages overall. Should we then eliminate all teams who had cap space when the market was poor vs when the market was good? Should we eliminated teams who had high draft picks in bad years? I don't see a legitimate reason for deciding to shrink the sample size based on one single criteria.

Because you have to compare apple to apples.

Boston, NY, Toronto, Philly, etc sure, I could see the comparisons, but Phoenix, NJ, and such, it just does not make any sense to even begin to compare them.

Rangers have had far more opportunity to do things, have options, than a team who is on an internal budget or is in a location literally no player wants to go to or where the players want out of as soon as possible. Or a team who has changed ownership where the sale of the team had a direct barring on the roster choices.
 
Because you have to compare apple to apples.

Boston, NY, Toronto, Philly, etc sure, I could see the comparisons, but Phoenix, NJ, and such, it just does not make any sense to even begin to compare them.

Rangers have had far more opportunity to do things, have options, than a team who is on an internal budget or is in a location literally no player wants to go to or where the players want out of as soon as possible. Or a team who has changed ownership where the sale of the team had a direct barring on the roster choices.

Why are they considered apples based on this one single criteria? Why are they allowed in this league if they're all so vastly different and incapable of playing on a level playing field? As I pointed out then you'd have to also eliminate teams who have cap space in bad UFA years, eliminate teams who have had high picks in bad draft years. Pitts for one should never be mentioned here then, neither should Chicago, TB. Draft luck and high picks are probably even more important than the FA cash. The team was set up to fail in 05 but no one could have predicted that a 7th rounder would be so good that he'd keep carrying bottom dwelling teams to the PO's despite constructing a roster designed to fail. So Sather couldn't be held to blame for that "bad luck" could he? Cherepanov, chernski, Sauer. These were significant losses that can't possibly be held at Sathers feet so we have to eliminate all teams who never suffered a tragedy at those levels too don't we? Gotta level the playing field after all. There are WAY too many variables for me to think that we can accurately represent this kind of a situation by singling out this one particular variable
 
You acknowledged my post once. That's great. But why would it matter if your next posts basically act as if you never acknowledged it at all? You feel how you act I suppose.

Not doing Middle School drama. Let's stick to the subject at hand.
 
We've been better than horrible since 2005.

There have been some good moments.

2nd round double overtime games

Getting to a conference finals series. (not the series itself, but getting there was good)

A true "packed house" from time to time

Clearly we have plateaued....

I think it's possible we could make it to a CF again, maybe even THIS year. But beyond that? meh Don't see it happening.

And so yes, we could very well be on the treadmill of mediocrity. Hovering around the playoffs. Out in one round or 2...

In 2004 I would have gladly signed up for that, but I am hungry again for something more.

Here is what I would get crazy excited about this year: Either winning the CF or takeing it to at least 7 games. That is now my threshold.
 
Why are they considered apples based on this one single criteria? Why are they allowed in this league if they're all so vastly different and incapable of playing on a level playing field?

Welcome to 'How Sports Work 101'. It's not an even playing field in the NHL, NBA or MLB. Never has been, never will be, and everyone knows it.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad