Sam Rosen was right (Historical impact of Rangers' roster moves)

[AlternateSideParking]

Callahan, Dubinsky and Anisimov are role players. What are they going to develop into?

25-50? Dubinsky is 28. Callahan is 29. Anisimov is 26 and he's having a career year. On pace for 25-45. All while playing on average to above-average teams

Where's Krejci? Where's Marchand? Where's Sharp? Where's Neal?

Our prospects develop into 2nd or 3rd line guys on an average team, which means on a Cup team, they're 3rd or 4th liners.

Get Stepan off the 1st line. He's no 1st line center. Shows you how awesome the organizational depth is. The best player from wire to wire this season was a guy they cut a year ago.

 

[jniklast]

Today, yes. Moving forward that's a different story.

So the youngest part or rather the latest pick is always the best? I mean if we move forward enough, the 5th in 2015 will most likely be better than a retired Nash.

Five years in the future isn't by default more important than this season. You cannot always only cater to the future - at some point you have to try your luck.

Would a team with all those assets in five years really have a better chance of winning the cup than this team right now? I doubt it.

 

[AlternateSideParking]

I think these are the types of trades the organization should be looking into.

But they dont. They want the established veterans. The guys who will attract attention. Been that way for decades.

If they had a deep and rich prospect pool, it would be an issue. Smith traded dahlen, Sandstrom, Granato, Rice and Debrusk for guys like Nicholls, gartner and Messier because he still retained Kovalev, Amonte, Nemchinov, Graves, Leetch and Zubov.

Who are we retaining? We retained Callahan and then trade him for a 40-year-old.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

Callahan, Dubinsky and Anisimov are role players. What are they going to develop into?

25-50? Dubinsky is 28. Callahan is 29. Anisimov is 26 and he's having a career year. On pace for 25-45. All while playing on average to above-average teams

Where's Krejci? Where's Marchand? Where's Sharp? Where's Neal?

Our prospects develop into 2nd or 3rd line guys on an average team, which means on a Cup team, they're 3rd or 4th liners.

Get Stepan off the 1st line. He's no 1st line center. Shows you how awesome the organizational depth is. The best player from wire to wire this season was a guy they cut a year ago.

If we are going to keep developing these 2nd/3rd line tweeners, I'd prefer if the plan is to package them away for young, high ceiling centers.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

So the youngest part or rather the latest pick is always the best? I mean if we move forward enough, the 5th in 2015 will most likely be better than a retired Nash.

Five years in the future isn't by default more important than this season. You cannot always only cater to the future - at some point you have to try your luck.

Would a team with all those assets in five years really have a better chance of winning the cup than this team right now? I doubt it.

Always?

How about we try it just once.

 

[Jersey Girl]

Five years in the future isn't by default more important than this season. You cannot always only cater to the future - at some point you have to try your luck.

So you're saying we always cater to the future and we need to try something else?

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

So the youngest part or rather the latest pick is always the best? I mean if we move forward enough, the 5th in 2015 will most likely be better than a retired Nash.

How am I possibly supposed to answer that? Will he likely be better than a retired Nash? No. But if Nash is retired he certainly would be more useful to the team.

And Tampa will presumably have two very good prospects entering their prime for a guy who wanted out and only wanted to got for one team. Conversely, the Rangers—assuming they don't win the Cup this season or next—will have very little to show from this trade.

Sather made this what should have a difficult situation for Yzerman quite easy.

Five years in the future isn't by default more important than this season. You cannot always only cater to the future - at some point you have to try your luck.

At some point you have to try your luck? What have they been doing the last 14 years?

Would a team with all those assets in five years really have a better chance of winning the cup than this team right now? I doubt it.

How am I possibly supposed to answer that? I feel pretty confident in speculating that Tampa will be better than the Rangers for years to come.

 

[jniklast]

Always?

How about we try it just once.

Well, we kinda did in 2004. And we definitely should do it again when this core is finished. But right now I think we have to be in "win now". This core as constructed (with whatever flaws and mistakes) has its best years right now and not in five years. Then we should blow it up.

 

[McRanger]

I was lucky enough to watch Zubov in the AHL a dozen times in '93, just a few rows from glass most nights, was amazing watching him not only shoot the puck, but his first pass and overall skill was some of the best I've ever seen at that level. Then in the pros it didn't stop. He had a better slapper from the point than Leetch, hard and accurate. 77 assists in 94 !

Til this day he goes under the radar when people talk about that amazing season. He was 23 years old.

Let me guess, you went to SUNY Binghamton? If so that is pretty cool, the guys I knew that attended there went to games all the time. And saw the players out at the bars. A female cousin of mine (I'm Irish, I have a lot of cousins) hung out with Darren Langdon a few times, but she only knew his first name. It was a few years before I knew who she was talking about. At least I had part of a name, which is better than when my sister met Chili Davis: "He was really really nice, had a really dark complexion, an accent and his name was something weird like Bouillabaisse Johnson."

I miss Zubov. Of all the guys that went, he was one thats departure still irks me.

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

I know Ryan Callahan is public enemy #1 around here after the contract squabble, but missing him for the rest of the year is a blow to the middle of the lineup. Not sure how you can say otherwise.

Is MSL better? Sure he is....at scoring.

Callahan is a RW. We had Nash, MZA and Callahan for RW with Fasth and Miller on backup. Dors and Carcillo fighting over the 4th line/IR replacement role.

Now we have Nash, MSL, and MZA for RW with Fasth and Miller on backup. Dors and Carcillo fighting over the 4th line/IR replacement role.

How the heck did we deplete the RW spot?

Now if you want to argue we lost a player who plays a certain role I'd have to counter with the overall role that MSL plays far surpasses Callahans overall roles.

 

[Trxjw]

And draft picks are irrelevant

I've been told countless times that the percentages of draft pick success are very poor. Still, no matter how poor they might be, that percentage is better than 0.

 

[jniklast]

So you're saying we always cater to the future and we need to try something else?

No we definitely aren't, and we certainly should've done it more in the past. But right now "win now" makes more sense. As bad as it might be, this roster will still be at it's best in the next few years.

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

I agree with what you added at the bottom. Its a lot easier to build a lineup when you start with the hard things.

That said, right wings who want out of their organization via trade is the only option?

Or FA (gabs). Or the draft (but it's near impossible to get with a pick outside the top 5). It's very very tough, man. Almost hopelessly tough. Gotta have some draft luck. Guys like Stepan, Kreider, MZA, Hags, they make all the difference. Even with their plethora of top picks Pitts has lost in the PO's waaaaay more than they've won it all. And Edmonton is a disaster still. It's about those later rounds, trades and FA just as much if not moreso than those top picks. Both are super important though. But this NYR team now and going forward has the nucleus of a cup winner for sure. And in 4 years it will all likely come crumbling down but y'know what? That's life and that's sports. Sometimes the luck just doesn't fall a teams way even if it's capable of going the distance. Look at the 90's Bills or 00's Eagles. Just one little break here or there for those teams and they'd have won at least once. Instead they came up with zilch. it happens. Chicago's first cup they got drug into OT game 7. Pitts was fighting down to the very last second with a damn good save by MAF to keep out of OT against Det.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

Well, we kinda did in 2004. And we definitely should do it again when this core is finished. But right now I think we have to be in "win now". This core as constructed (with whatever flaws and mistakes) has its best years right now and not in five years. Then we should blow it up.

You know, Im not against "win now" so much, but only because Im pretty sure Sather would completely **** up trying to build a new core, and I'd rather wait it out and let someone else do it. The messed up part if that hes robbing from the future as we speak, and making it even more difficult for his successor.

That said - 2004 was a blip on the radar. As soon as Jagr exploded and Lundqvist emerged, Sather couldn't help himself and started taking more and more shortcuts.

One moment in time 10 years ago constitutes looking too much towards the future for you??? Absurd.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

Let me guess, you went to SUNY Binghamton? If so that is pretty cool, the guys I knew that attended there went to games all the time. And saw the players out at the bars. A female cousin of mine (I'm Irish, I have a lot of cousins) hung out with Darren Langdon a few times, but she only knew his first name. It was a few years before I knew who she was talking about. At least I had part of a name, which is better than when my sister met Chili Davis: "He was really really nice, had a really dark complexion, an accent and his name was something weird like Bouillabaisse Johnson."

I miss Zubov. Of all the guys that went, he was one thats departure still irks me.

Some of my best friends went to SUNY Binghamton, but this was right after the Binghamton Rangers moved - not sure I would've remembered the games anyway had they been there.

 

[jniklast]

You know, Im not against "win now" so much, but only because Im pretty sure Sather would completely **** up trying to build a new core, and I'd rather wait it out and let someone else do it.

That said - 2004 was a blip on the radar. As soon as Jagr exploded and Lundqvist emerged, Sather couldn't help himself and started taking more and more shortcuts.

One moment in time 10 years ago constitutes looking too much towards the future for you??? Absurd.

My comment on always catering to the future absolutely wasn't towards the Rangers. It was towards the dominant opinion on these boards, that picks and prospects are always the best and 29 teams should rebuild every year.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

My comment on always catering to the future absolutely wasn't towards the Rangers. It was towards the dominant opinion on these boards, that picks and prospects are always the best and 29 teams should rebuild every year.

Thats a strawman argument.

In my opinion, the roster needs to be augmented. They need massive upgrades at center in the worst way. I would do whatever it takes to make that happen.

I would not be trading for 38 year old right wings.

 

[Off Sides]

(1) Of all the players/assets you listed, the two best pieces are still Nash and MSL.
(2) We already had all of Callahan/Dubi/Ani... and they didnt get us to the the cup. What makes you think they would have this year?

We had a roster full of gritty 2-way players, but you need talent to win. Thats what MSL and Nash are.

Thing is they traded a ton of assets for just those two players, Nash has not been looking very good, other than a spurt here and there, MSL is 38 almost 39.

You don't think they could have maybe done a much better job parleying all that into something just as good if not better when including the draft picks?

It's not like they had to wait on Nash or MSL to be available then choose, they could have brushed aside Callahan first demands last summer and traded him when he still had a year left on his deal.

Could have moved some of those picks to maybe move up in the draft? Or used them in conjunction with those roster player to move up in the draft or trade for a younger top end player? Seguin for Eriksson type deal?

They had all those assets, end result they turned them into Nash and MSL.

 

[Bluenote13]

Let me guess, you went to SUNY Binghamton? If so that is pretty cool, the guys I knew that attended there went to games all the time. And saw the players out at the bars. A female cousin of mine (I'm Irish, I have a lot of cousins) hung out with Darren Langdon a few times, but she only knew his first name. It was a few years before I knew who she was talking about. At least I had part of a name, which is better than when my sister met Chili Davis: "He was really really nice, had a really dark complexion, an accent and his name was something weird like Bouillabaisse Johnson."

I miss Zubov. Of all the guys that went, he was one thats departure still irks me.

I was going to school in Maryland, had friends and former coaches in the AHL, got to see games in Binghamton, Utica and Baltimore, the Caps AHL team. Besides getting to watch Richter, Kovalev and Zubov on the Bing I also got to see Brodeur(I wasnt impressed at all!), Konawalchuk, Guerin, and Byron Dafoe.

I've been told countless times that the percentages of draft pick success are very poor. Still, no matter how poor they might be, that percentage is better than 0.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

Thing is they traded a ton of assets for just those two players, Nash has not been looking very good, other than a spurt here and there, MSL is 38 almost 39.

You don't think they could have maybe done a much better job parleying all that into something just as good if not better when including the draft picks?

This is the question I keep asking myself. There were 7 assets in those trades. 7.

I dont mind shelling out assets for upgrades, but why were both upgrades for guys that wanted out and demanded NY as their destination. Theres other fish in the sea. It reeks of laziness.

 

[Off Sides]

This is the question I keep asking myself. There were 7 assets in those trades. 7.

I dont mind shelling out assets for upgrades, but why were both upgrades for guys that wanted out and demanded NY as their destination. Theres other fish in the sea. It reeks of laziness.

Sure, upgrade the team, I am fine with that but I'm pretty sure when one adds all that up, and looks back on it unless this does provide a cup, it's going to be pretty sad.

I probably would have made the Nash trade at the time, would not having given up the first, take it or leave it for Columbus, which it appeared they had no other real choice.

The Clowe trade I disliked from the second it was made. How does a internet armchair GM like me know he was damaged but not the professionals?

This MSL trade, in a vacuum I could certainly see it as a semi fair deal, if it was just the Callahan and a 2nd or even conditional 1st, and if I did not know MSL had a no trade and required him going to the Rangers.

In the bigger picture considering all the other moves, it all adds up to what looks like pretty poor assets management where the moves were made based on who wanted to come to the Rangers, where the Rangers overpaid anyway even tho they had the majority of the leverage.

Which looks sort of like the same moves they make with UFAs, it seems these players want to come here, yet they still overpay for them, I just don't get the point, shouldn't it be the other way around at least a little bit?

 

[Thirty One]

This is the question I keep asking myself. There were 7 assets in those trades. 7.

I dont mind shelling out assets for upgrades, but why were both upgrades for guys that wanted out and demanded NY as their destination. Theres other fish in the sea. It reeks of laziness.

Which other fish were there who were comparable to Nash or St. Louis?

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

Which other fish were there who were comparable to Nash or St. Louis?

Apparently none.

Maybe the plan is to be reactionary towards disgruntled vets who want to force their way to NY.

 

[Thirty One]

Apparently none.

Maybe the plan is to be reactionary towards disgruntled vets who want to force their way to NY.

I think the plan is to acquire elite offensive talent, no matter how it becomes available.

 

[Off Sides]

Which other fish were there who were comparable to Nash or St. Louis?

We don't know Sather said he had another deal instead of MSL.

And why Nash, they already had Gaborik on the RW scoring 40 a season? Why MSL when they already have Nash and Zucc on the RW?

The only plan looks like it was they wanted to come here so let's just get them.

Which is sort of like Sather saying he did not expect to sign both Drury and Gomez back when that happened, it was not a plan, it was just something that was possible so it was done.

I just do not see any creativity in these moves, just them making a choice based on what comes up. Not even following a loose outline of taking a team roster from point A to B.