Salary Cap: Salary Cap + Roster Building | Longest Off-Season Evahhh (Cap Details + Links in First Post)

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PensandCaps

Beddy Tlueger
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A bad Letang is still very good comparably. Anyone who thinks Letang's contract would be hard to move has no clue what they're talking about. You got wingers making as much as Letang. And believe me...Letang is way way way more valuable than Evander Kane or JVR.

Hell, Shattenkirk is making the same basically, he is not near Letang. (Letangs contract is very good)

I laugh at people wanting to move Letang but WANT a guy like Justin Faulk who is dreadful defensively and hasn't put up great offensive numbers in a while. While facing much weaker comp than Letang. Faulk would be eaten alive as a #1D. Letang atleast has proved to be able to hold his own, even play at a Norris level as the #1 D.
 

Riptide

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A bad Letang is still very good comparably. Anyone who thinks Letang's contract would be hard to move has no clue what they're talking about. You got wingers making as much as Letang. And believe me...Letang is way way way more valuable than Evander Kane or JVR.

Hell, Shattenkirk is making the same basically, he is not near Letang.
(Letangs contract is very good)

I laugh at people wanting to move Letang but WANT a guy like Justin Faulk who is dreadful defensively and hasn't put up great offensive numbers in a while. While facing much weaker comp than Letang. Faulk would be eaten alive as a #1D. Letang atleast has proved to be able to hold his own, even play at a Norris level as the #1 D.

[edit - this turned into a much longer post then I'd planned on writing]

There's multiple issues when it comes to Letang.

A) His cap hit. No, 7.25m isn't expensive for a #1D. However his play for much of last season and intermittently in the POs wasn't #1D caliber. And I'm not even talking about the big blunders that lead to brutal goals, but just in general. That said, if he plays at his historical average, he's a #1D. But that leads to issue 2.
B) His health. If you can't trust him to stay healthy, then it doesn't really matter how good his cap hit is. Prior to 14/15 some (much?) of this board's attitude was "well he's healthy for the POs". Then he missed 14/15 and 16/17. I'd happily pay more for a better D, and I'd happily pay less for a lesser D... if I knew that they were going to play at a fairly consistent level for 75+ games a season.
C) His age. Most of the players we're talking about are younger then Letang. Shattenkirk is 1.5 yrs younger. Faulk is 5 years younger. Nisky is the same age. But looking just at Letang, there's some serious (and legitimate) questions as to how he will age due to the fact that he's not exactly the smartest player out there. Letang gets by on his skill and skating. If his hands and/or feet go... it will get really ugly out there. People bitched about Hainsey in 16/17. But if Letang had Hainsey's IQ, he'd be untouchable, and we the fans wouldn't even consider moving him. That IQ is what really extends players careers, and it's something that Letang far too often is missing.
D) His consistency. Not even season to season or game to game.... Letang from shift to shift can go from looking like Lidstrom or Karlsson to looking like Pouliot. Hell sometimes you see that on the same shift. Prior to his neck injury it had looked like he had sorted out most of that, and I'll give him the benefit of the doubt that he can figure it out for next season... but it's not like it wasn't something that we've discussed about him prior to last year.

You brought up two names (and I added a 3rd). And while none are as good as Letang (even if you average out the past 3-5 seasons prior to last yr), or have produced as much as him (while also usually not playing on as good/offensive teams like him), they've produced enough at a lower cap hit that I'd seriously consider swapping them 1-1. It might be a loss in dynamic talent... but younger, cheaper, and healthier... has a value all of it's own.

Shattenkirk missed 40 games over his 6 seasons with STL. Rough season with NY last season, but even so, he's 600k cheaper then Letang. Faulk in the past 6 seasons missed 47 games. He hasn't had anything close to Letang's production, but then his team has also historically been very bad (4x top 7 picks,+ 2 more top 13 picks, and picked #2 this summer, and over the last 7 seasons averaged 25th in GF). He's also 5 years younger and has a cap hit that's 2.42m cheaper (although his next deal in a few years will nullify most of that). Niskanen isn't any younger then Letang, and he's certainly not better then him. But he's 1.5m cheaper, and in the past 7 seasons only missed 34 games.

In that same span, Letang missed 154 games.

I mean sure ideally you get Karlsson to replace Letang, and then everyone is happy. But we don't actually need that. If we get down to the bare necessities, we need a RHD who can skate well, handle the puck decently and who can make a good first pass. And they need to be good enough defensively that you can put them out on the ice for 20-22 minutes against quality players and not hold your breath the entire time. PP/PK would obviously be a plus, but with the other blueliners we currently have, that's more of a plus then a need.

I've been vocal for years (prior to 16/17) that you do not need a #1D to win a cup. That said, it's hard as f*** to assemble and then retain for multiple seasons a blueline that has all the needed parts (PK, PP, transition/puck movement, ability to eat the required minutes) without having a #1D fill multiple roles there. Depending on how much faith you put in JJ, I think we're at the point that this blueline would be awfully close to being able to have a "by committee" blueline. You swap out Letang for any one of those players (Faulk, Shattenkirk, Niskanen), and I think you'd still end up with a group that is capable enough to win. It would also be cheaper and/or younger, and looking at historical numbers, significantly healthier.

Bottom line is there's a lot more that goes into whether player A is better than player B then just their cap and individual skill. And the knowledge that a player will probably be available for the POs has a value all of it's own.
 

Peat

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A) His cap hit. No, 7.25m isn't expensive for a #1D. However his play for much of last season and intermittently in the POs wasn't #1D caliber. And I'm not even talking about the big blunders that lead to brutal goals, but just in general. That said, if he plays at his historical average, he's a #1D. But that leads to issue 2.

Post-October, Letang was a + player for the rest of the season despite a historically bad PDO for him, 17th in scoring for dmen,10th in minutes, and presumably really good at Corsi although NHL.com isn't showing me the stats right now and I'm too lazy to go look elsewhere. As such, I'm questioning the idea he wasn't 1D calibre for most of last season.

I mean sure ideally you get Karlsson to replace Letang, and then everyone is happy. But we don't actually need that. If we get down to the bare necessities, we need a RHD who can skate well, handle the puck decently and who can make a good first pass. And they need to be good enough defensively that you can put them out on the ice for 20-22 minutes against quality players and not hold your breath the entire time. PP/PK would obviously be a plus, but with the other blueliners we currently have, that's more of a plus then a need.

I feel like you've described something pretty close to a 1D and its not a profile that I believe Faulk or Shattenkirk alone would replace. If you want to replace Letang, I think you're gonna need two top 4D.

Maybe Martin, he has been a long tenured coach (HC and GM) in this league and is widely respected. Still, someone hire up may have a more profound impact. I don't think Sullivan needs his hand held or needs micromanaged. Just someone who once in a while offers him a different perspective. Not every player is a Crosby or Hornqvist, not every player will go balls to the wall every shift. You can't have one set of rules for everyone, it would be nice if you could, but in reality that's not how it works.

Logically, if there is a problem with Sully's management style that Tocchet fixed, and it is a problem that can be fixed by Martin or Guerin or whoever already here, the problem would probably already be fixed. Maybe a change in approach would change things but if it doesn't happen as part of their natural approach, it seems quite likely they don't have the time or the aptitude to be the Good Cop to Sully's Bad Cop.


I also think that if there's a problem, occasional chats aren't going to have the same effect as having a Good Cop he respects there in the room with him all the time. This isn't about micromanaging or hand holding so much as

a) When you need the Good Cop to step in, you need them to do so right then. And they need to be someone who knows what's going on, not someone removed.
b) It means there's always a different voice around and it keeps things fresh and varied for the locker room.

Ultimately, if Sully needs someone, he needs someone to pick up the troops and keep them positive, and someone who can smooth over the occasional frictions that occur. He's going to be more effective being himself with someone to help manage the collateral damage than he is going to be effective constantly second-guessing himself as to whether he's going too far.


And if he's not already getting a different perspective every day from the other coaches and senior players, then it's wrong to begin with. Every manager needs different perspectives around him, day in day out. Tbh, I refuse to believe that we could have won 2 in a row if Tocchet was really the only guy there offering that different perspective (although its possible that Flower/Daley/Kunitz/Cullen also played a huge part in keeping the locker room smooth and losing all of them at once hurt a lot).


Also I still think the problem talk is overstated. He clearly allowed guys to ease up for a lot of last season. He's got Kessel's career season out of him without the Kessel whisperer there. A lot of players have spoken glowingly about him. Yes, there's frictions and nobody's perfect, but he has shown flexibility and he has got great performances out of guys he maybe doesn't get on with.

Not saying this removes the desire for a Tocchet. Everyone's improved by having the best possible guys around them. But there's some pretty good arguments against the idea he has to have one.
 
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PensandCaps

Beddy Tlueger
May 22, 2015
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[edit - this turned into a much longer post then I'd planned on writing]

There's multiple issues when it comes to Letang.

A) His cap hit. No, 7.25m isn't expensive for a #1D. However his play for much of last season and intermittently in the POs wasn't #1D caliber. And I'm not even talking about the big blunders that lead to brutal goals, but just in general. That said, if he plays at his historical average, he's a #1D. But that leads to issue 2.
B) His health. If you can't trust him to stay healthy, then it doesn't really matter how good his cap hit is. Prior to 14/15 some (much?) of this board's attitude was "well he's healthy for the POs". Then he missed 14/15 and 16/17. I'd happily pay more for a better D, and I'd happily pay less for a lesser D... if I knew that they were going to play at a fairly consistent level for 75+ games a season.
C) His age. Most of the players we're talking about are younger then Letang. Shattenkirk is 1.5 yrs younger. Faulk is 5 years younger. Nisky is the same age. But looking just at Letang, there's some serious (and legitimate) questions as to how he will age due to the fact that he's not exactly the smartest player out there. Letang gets by on his skill and skating. If his hands and/or feet go... it will get really ugly out there. People *****ed about Hainsey in 16/17. But if Letang had Hainsey's IQ, he'd be untouchable, and we the fans wouldn't even consider moving him. That IQ is what really extends players careers, and it's something that Letang far too often is missing.
D) His consistency. Not even season to season or game to game.... Letang from shift to shift can go from looking like Lidstrom or Karlsson to looking like Pouliot. Hell sometimes you see that on the same shift. Prior to his neck injury it had looked like he had sorted out most of that, and I'll give him the benefit of the doubt that he can figure it out for next season... but it's not like it wasn't something that we've discussed about him prior to last year.

You brought up two names (and I added a 3rd). And while none are as good as Letang (even if you average out the past 3-5 seasons prior to last yr), or have produced as much as him (while also usually not playing on as good/offensive teams like him), they've produced enough at a lower cap hit that I'd seriously consider swapping them 1-1. It might be a loss in dynamic talent... but younger, cheaper, and healthier... has a value all of it's own.

Shattenkirk missed 40 games over his 6 seasons with STL. Rough season with NY last season, but even so, he's 600k cheaper then Letang. Faulk in the past 6 seasons missed 47 games. He hasn't had anything close to Letang's production, but then his team has also historically been very bad (4x top 7 picks,+ 2 more top 13 picks, and picked #2 this summer, and over the last 7 seasons averaged 25th in GF). He's also 5 years younger and has a cap hit that's 2.42m cheaper (although his next deal in a few years will nullify most of that). Niskanen isn't any younger then Letang, and he's certainly not better then him. But he's 1.5m cheaper, and in the past 7 seasons only missed 34 games.

In that same span, Letang missed 154 games.

I mean sure ideally you get Karlsson to replace Letang, and then everyone is happy. But we don't actually need that. If we get down to the bare necessities, we need a RHD who can skate well, handle the puck decently and who can make a good first pass. And they need to be good enough defensively that you can put them out on the ice for 20-22 minutes against quality players and not hold your breath the entire time. PP/PK would obviously be a plus, but with the other blueliners we currently have, that's more of a plus then a need.

I've been vocal for years (prior to 16/17) that you do not need a #1D to win a cup. That said, it's hard as **** to assemble and then retain for multiple seasons a blueline that has all the needed parts (PK, PP, transition/puck movement, ability to eat the required minutes) without having a #1D fill multiple roles there. Depending on how much faith you put in JJ, I think we're at the point that this blueline would be awfully close to being able to have a "by committee" blueline. You swap out Letang for any one of those players (Faulk, Shattenkirk, Niskanen), and I think you'd still end up with a group that is capable enough to win. It would also be cheaper and/or younger, and looking at historical numbers, significantly healthier.

Bottom line is there's a lot more that goes into whether player A is better than player B then just their cap and individual skill. And the knowledge that a player will probably be available for the POs has a value all of it's own.

Agree about Nisky. He's much better than Faulk or Shattenkirk..

He has faced top comp and looked good and can actually defend.

Faulk and Shattenkirk do nothing for me in terms of moving Letang for them. Nisky...i'd think about it. Him and Maatta had great chemistry. Dumo and Schultz have looked good together.
 

Empoleon8771

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People freak out about Letang's bad play last year, he made a lot of boneheaded decisions which cost the Penguins directly, but he statistically wasn't much worse last year than he has been in multiple other seasons recently. His issues last year were exasperated by him consistently getting crappy goaltending whenever he was on the ice. He did have problems last year, his giveaways were the highest in his career, his ES offensive numbers definitely slipped up and he screwed up with the puck pretty often, but he was pretty good statistically last season. His advanced stats were stronger last year than they have been in other recent years, his shot suppression stats were actually noticeably better.

I'm not worried about Letang that much, I don't think anyone would complain about him much if he'd be getting alright goaltending behind him.
 

Dipsy Doodle

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C'mooooon Voynov.

Be repentant, ask for a 2nd chance, work hard to make amends, come here, we trade Letang for futures, Warm Cookies happy.
 

billybudd

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Feb 1, 2012
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I don't think Justin Faulk is "dreadful defensively."

And if Voynov is granted a visa (which is probably unavoidable due to California's inexplicable decision to vacate his conviction), hopefully he gets a parking ticket and that's used as an excuse to deport him.
 

Riptide

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I feel like you've described something pretty close to a 1D and its not a profile that I believe Faulk or Shattenkirk alone would replace. If you want to replace Letang, I think you're gonna need two top 4D.

That's something I said all summer... and then we signed JJ. Now I'm not entirely comfortable giving JJ 20+ minutes a night before actually seeing him here... but JJ does provide some of the things we need on the blueline (first pass, can skate with the puck) that we'd need to have if we were trying to "replace" Letang. He also PKs and can play on the PP. And honestly, I think he provides enough that Faulk or Shattenkirk alone would be enough that we wouldn't miss Letang nearly as much as some suggest. At the bare minimum a blueline with Faulk/Shatty, Schultz, Dumoulin, Maatta, JJ and Olek would have all the requirements and provide everything needed to have success on a regular basis.

Post-October, Letang was a + player for the rest of the season despite a historically bad PDO for him, 17th in scoring for dmen,10th in minutes, and presumably really good at Corsi although NHL.com isn't showing me the stats right now and I'm too lazy to go look elsewhere. As such, I'm questioning the idea he wasn't 1D calibre for most of last season.

Chunks of that will come simply by playing on this Penguins team. My issue was never his production, but his frequently lapses and mistakes that even he wouldn't have been making 12 months prior. His level of play just for him was all over the map. It got better in the new year... but not by a ton. And despite him putting up 50 pts... I'd honestly pay a worse player most of his money just to get a little more consistency on a game to game and shift to shift basis. Now obviously that's not going to happen, and I do have some faith that Letang will be much better this season vs last... but Letang is always going to be someone that gets by on his individual skills vs his smarts... and as such, this won't be the last time we have this conversation over the duration of his contract.
 

Peat

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That's something I said all summer... and then we signed JJ. Now I'm not entirely comfortable giving JJ 20+ minutes a night before actually seeing him here... but JJ does provide some of the things we need on the blueline (first pass, can skate with the puck) that we'd need to have if we were trying to "replace" Letang. He also PKs and can play on the PP. And honestly, I think he provides enough that Faulk or Shattenkirk alone would be enough that we wouldn't miss Letang nearly as much as some suggest. At the bare minimum a blueline with Faulk/Shatty, Schultz, Dumoulin, Maatta, JJ and Olek would have all the requirements and provide everything needed to have success on a regular basis.

Hrm. I see. I'm not sure I agree. I think that if Johnson is trustworthy enough to count, the focus really needs to be on a right-handed Dumo to keep that first pairing strong defensively rather than a big puck mover guy. Pesce or a fit Tanev.

Chunks of that will come simply by playing on this Penguins team. My issue was never his production, but his frequently lapses and mistakes that even he wouldn't have been making 12 months prior. His level of play just for him was all over the map. It got better in the new year... but not by a ton. And despite him putting up 50 pts... I'd honestly pay a worse player most of his money just to get a little more consistency on a game to game and shift to shift basis. Now obviously that's not going to happen, and I do have some faith that Letang will be much better this season vs last... but Letang is always going to be someone that gets by on his individual skills vs his smarts... and as such, this won't be the last time we have this conversation over the duration of his contract.

The corsi doesn't. We've seen just how much of a difference Letang makes to our shot metrics. I'm not sure how much the points do either, apart from Schultz's high mark no one's really got near to him on points production recently. Just looking at ES production from last season:

Letang - 1.16 p/60
Maatta - .95 p/60
Schultz - 0.94 p/60

And that's with Letang taking much harder competition. (Also, Oleksiak got 1.07, tiny sample so not counting it that high but pretty promsiing for the future).

If you prefer a more consistent player, sure. But consistency or not, Letang was impacting the game like a 1D for most of the season.
 

Riptide

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Hrm. I see. I'm not sure I agree. I think that if Johnson is trustworthy enough to count, the focus really needs to be on a right-handed Dumo to keep that first pairing strong defensively rather than a big puck mover guy. Pesce or a fit Tanev.

The biggest thing we would miss is Letang's ability to transition the puck. Look no further then the 2017 POs. But now in addition to having Faulk/Shatty (in this scenario), you'd have JJ as well. And despite his flaws, one thing he can still do quite well is transition the puck. Between one of them and JJ, I think we'd be fine. Less dynamic... but cheaper, younger and healthier.
 

Strakanator

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The biggest plus for me last year was the Oleksiak trade and resigning. He could end up being a stud 2nd pair defensemen that we got for scraps. The fact that he resigned for a low cap hit is vital on a team that is at the cap and peaking for another cup run.
 

Peat

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The biggest thing we would miss is Letang's ability to transition the puck. Look no further then the 2017 POs. But now in addition to having Faulk/Shatty (in this scenario), you'd have JJ as well. And despite his flaws, one thing he can still do quite well is transition the puck. Between one of them and JJ, I think we'd be fine. Less dynamic... but cheaper, younger and healthier.

Maybe. I'm not sure sound puckmoving and nevermind the defence is going to do much better than sound defence and nevermind the puckmoving. I'd rather gamble on Letang than either of those two.
 

Pancakes

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Yeah, that performance by Crosby was absolutely ridiculous. Malkin too.

Schultz and Hainsey really won me over that game also actually seeing them in person.

Yeah Hainsey was good that game. He made some really solid plays on the pk I remember. And his goal was hilarious.

And yeah Malkin saw what Sid was doing and then being Geno he went out and tried to top it too. It's always awesome when him and Sid see the other playing well and raise their own game as a result. Wasn't just Geno though. I think everyone that game was inspired by what Sid was doing and raised their own level as a result.

I knew we were winning the Cup after that game and even more strangely I knew we were doing it in 6. I knew Nashville would be a tough building to win in but I had a feeling we would do it there because we always do it on the road but also because of the momentum we had and it just felt like a road team was due to win a game that series and I figured why not us?

Not a logical sequence of thoughts necessarily but it was my gut feelings and luckily I was proven right.
 

Brandinho

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I don't think Justin Faulk is "dreadful defensively."

And if Voynov is granted a visa (which is probably unavoidable due to California's inexplicable decision to vacate his conviction), hopefully he gets a parking ticket and that's used as an excuse to deport him.

Faulk always seemed to be below average defensively when I watched him, but I never got the impression that he was terrible in that regard. Certainly not as bad as the other Justin was in Edmonton.

Voynov is scum and shouldn't be allowed back in the NHL.
 
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Dipsy Doodle

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I mean, just so we're consistent, our present back-up goalie isn't exactly a stranger to domestic assault:

*According to police statements,the victim was thrown to the ground, jumped on top of, and was repeatedly punched and spat upon. Police say that DeSmith “appeared intoxicated” and that when they arrived, the victim had physical evidence of the assault on her body.

Once officers located DeSmith, he was taken to the hospital. Once he was assessed, the officers attempted to handcuff DeSmith. He resisted and had to be wrestled to the ground, police said.

UNH's DeSmith arrested on assault

He underwent drug and alcohol counseling and completed community service as part of his plea deal, and hasn't had any issues since. If (BIG IF) Voynov went through a similar process I don't see why we couldn't offer him a similar opportunity, heinous as his act was. I don't see a moral distinction between one and the other.
 

PensPlz

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Getting into a drunken fight =\= beating your wife/spouse

Don't see the big deal. Let the courts handle it.
 

Brandinho

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I mean, just so we're consistent, our present back-up goalie isn't exactly a stranger to domestic assault:



UNH's DeSmith arrested on assault

He underwent drug and alcohol counseling and completed community service as part of his plea deal, and hasn't had any issues since. If (BIG IF) Voynov went through a similar process I don't see why we couldn't offer him a similar opportunity, heinous as his act was. I don't see a moral distinction between one and the other.

Cool, get rid of DeSmith too. Trash is trash is trash.

Voynov punched his wife in the jaw, choked her three times, kicked her five or six times and pushed her into a television. She needed stitches to close the wounds he gave her. He's a pathetic excuse for a man and I would not support a team that willingly signs someone of such low character.
 

Dipsy Doodle

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Cool, get rid of DeSmith too. Trash is trash is trash.

Voynov punched his wife in the jaw, choked her three times, kicked her five or six times and pushed her into a television. She needed stitches to close the wounds he gave her. He's a pathetic excuse for a man and I would not support a team that willingly signs someone of such low character.

You already do! :laugh:

I'm the last person to make excuses for the behaviour, believe me. Just saying that if people are contrite and go through the proper rehabilitation, I'll give them a second chance rather than a scarlet letter for life. It seems to have worked alright with DeSmith here.
 

Brandinho

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You already do! :laugh:

I'm the last person to make excuses for the behaviour, believe me. Just saying that if people are contrite and go through the proper rehabilitation, I'll give them a second chance rather than a scarlet letter for life. It seems to have worked alright with DeSmith here.

I wasn't aware of those details regarding DeSmith and frankly, it doesn't sit well with me that we signed him now that I do know. Voynov would be the breaking point, just as Evander Kane would have been.
 

Brandinho

deng xiaoping gang
Aug 28, 2005
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No, didn't know that.

But ya know... equality and all. Gender shouldn't matter :P

Why shouldn't gender matter when men are considerably larger and stronger than women?

Gender equality is about equal opportunity, not pretending that men and women are physically equal in every way.
 

Dipsy Doodle

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I wasn't aware of those details regarding DeSmith and frankly, it doesn't sit well with me that we signed him now that I do know. Voynov would be the breaking point, just as Evander Kane would have been.

For me anyway, this is the distinction: Kane was taken to task multiple times and continued to do it anyway. DeSmith crossed the line once, tried to make amends, and has apparently been a model citizen since.

I don't know where Voynov's at. FWIW, he and his wife are still together...though I know with domestic abuse that doesn't necessarily mean everything's hunky-dory. But I'll keep an open mind if he were to follow DeSmith's path.
 
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