Salary Cap: Salary Cap & Roster Building | Cat On a Tin Roof, Dogs In a Pile

[Coastal Kev]

A) he's not a "3rd line banger". The guy is a legitimate top 6 winger. His skillset is a little different then most, but he's still a top 6 winger. And that's what you're paying for.
B) Sure having someone like him is a luxury. But it's also a luxury that we will be able to afford - at least next year and probably the one after that. Past that it gets a little murkier.

Edit: a top 6 forward that doesn't fit with either of our 2 top Centers. That's reality

 

[Empoleon8771]

I really wish the Penguins wouldn't have committed 3 years to Hunwick. Not that I think he's bad, I like him more than probably most people here, but because the Penguins didn't need a serviceable #5 enough to justify spending $2.25 million for 3 years on him. Defensemen like Hunwick are so easy to bring in that I really can't see how Rutherford justified signing him to the contract he got. It's not a bad contract, it's pretty standard market value, but I just don't know how Rutherford found it a big enough need to give him that much term. Even ignoring that they added Oleksiak halfway through the season, there are always at least a dozen bottom pair defensemen that move teams at the deadline.

 

[Gurglesons]

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/penguins-sign-matt-hunwick-3-years-6-75-m-2-25m-aav.2365755/

How quickly your opinions change Empo..

If only some of us realized it at the time, guess I was off by a few months..

Term makes no sense. I'll give this board until November until they are eating this guy alive. Honestly, I would've been fine trying to run a Pouliot - Cole third pairing or a Maatta - Ruh third pairing if we had to give up three years for a UFA thatcould've potentially been an AHLer last year.
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[Peat]

And yet Malkin played one of his better games this year with Hornqvist on his RW.

One swallow doesn't make a summer. Malkin'ss history with Hornqvist is not reassuring - fair enough if you believe otherwise.

 

[Pens1566]

They didn't win last year "in spit of not having Letang", they won in spite of not having good enough puck moving talent. I do think you can be fine without Letang if you can bring in an excellent puck mover. You can get a worse player back than Letang that helps you just as much as Letang if he has the puck moving talent and skating. The problem is how are you going to get one of those players? That doesn't touch on the idea that Hornqvist is more important than Letang, which is just insanity.

Semantics. Yes, he's our best PMD. But he also churns 30 mins a night when needed and plays in all scenarios. You're short changing what he brings (and what we sorely missed last playoffs) to validate dealing him.

 

[Riptide]

Hornqvist out and Kane in is a move that actually makes a good amount of sense, but you know this team would never make that kind of move during the season. That's probably a change you'd see the Penguins make by signing Kane, I don't think they'd trade Hornqvist like that. It would be counter intuitive if you're moving Hornqvist based on "asset management", only to spend those assets on Kane.

On paper for a 1 yr thing? Yeah, it does make sense. You get the better player who addresses a weaker position. In the reality of the NHL? It wouldn't happen. GMs are much more willing to "stick with who/what they know" - especially when you know you can win with those guys. And if you were to seriously consider re-signing both... Honrqvist is going to come in a lot cheaper then Kane will.

 

[Riptide]

They didn't win last year "in spit of not having Letang", they won in spite of not having good enough puck moving talent. I do think you can be fine without Letang if you can bring in an excellent puck mover. You can get a worse player back than Letang that helps you just as much as Letang if he has the puck moving talent and skating. The problem is how are you going to get one of those players? That doesn't touch on the idea that Hornqvist is more important than Letang, which is just insanity.

I think you'd need to bring in two excellent puck movers. We also had Daley last season. And while he wasn't Daley of 15/16, he was still a much needed boost to our blueline in terms of mobility and puck movement.

And if you've got that seriously good PMD, why are you giving that and a 3C up for the Letang gamble?

If someone could find this trade, I'm interested. But I'm not optimistic. Only way I'm optimistic is if Letang returns to the sort of level where we wouldn't want to make that trade anyway.

There's more to being a #1D then just puck movement. Letang is a #1D. And there are many many quality PMD out there who are not, nor are close to being #1D's. That's why someone would take that gamble. It's also why we shouldn't - unless you think that Letang will never get back to where he was in 15/16.

 

[Shaffer]

Specifically on the Penguins, Friedman has recently mentioned he thinks “there’s a deal to be made there” between the two teams in terms of Kris Letang and Pacioretty as part of the swap. A lot has certainly been made latel about the Penguins’ appetite for change.

. . .

 

[Riptide]

One swallow doesn't make a summer. Malkin'ss history with Hornqvist is not reassuring - fair enough if you believe otherwise.

When was the last time those two were seriously played together? We've seen it a few times over the last week or so, but prior to that? In 2015? We never saw it last year, and I'm not even sure if we saw it the year before. My point is players and people and systems change, and when talking about players of this caliber (both EM and PH), I think they can as well. So what I saw with EM and PH is no different then what I saw with Sprong and Simon - something promising that I want to see more of. Yet we seem to have zero issues around here praising the latter to the high heavens, while dismissing the former.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I don't believe a word Friedman says at this point. The only ounce of credibility he got was stealing work from Mackey, and at this point, he has been exposed for being a complete blow hard.

 

[Riptide]

I just do not see it. We'd want Petry or Weber back obviously (to take KLs RD PMD spot). And then Patches? IDK, I just really struggle to see a move between these two teams that is making the Penguins a better team when it comes to Letang.

 

[Gurglesons]

Friedman is a blow hard? Really?

Probably one of the best minds in the game right now.

I also think he pretty clearly is giving his opinion.

 

[Tom Hanks]

Edit: a top 6 forward that doesn't fit with either of our 2 top Centers. That's reality

Your reality is distorted if you think Hornqvist doesn’t fit with Crosby. Most of Hornqvist’s time here has been with Crosby and they have both been great players.

 

[chethejet]

Looking at the Hawks now with some really bad contracts going forward including the sham with Hossa. It is very critical that GMJR doesn't reward past performance with a contract that will be an albatross down the road. Not say Hornqvist is that, but still a long term contact has risks for a player who physical play has a limited shelf life.

 

[Shady Machine]

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/penguins-sign-matt-hunwick-3-years-6-75-m-2-25m-aav.2365755/

How quickly your opinions change Empo..

If only some of us realized it at the time, guess I was off by a few months..

Term makes no sense. I'll give this board until November until they are eating this guy alive. Honestly, I would've been fine trying to run a Pouliot - Cole third pairing or a Maatta - Ruh third pairing if we had to give up three years for a UFA thatcould've potentially been an AHLer last year.
​

You were definitely the most vocal critic of the deal early on and I'll give you props for that. I said "good value deal" or something, but I admittedly didn't know the player well and thought a trade for a 3C was coming.

 

[Shady Machine]

I don't believe a word Friedman says at this point. The only ounce of credibility he got was stealing work from Mackey, and at this point, he has been exposed for being a complete blow hard.

Really? I like Friedman a lot. That doesn't mean a deal will happen with Montreal and I still believe it's unlikely Letang is traded.

 

[Peat]

When was the last time those two were seriously played together? We've seen it a few times over the last week or so, but prior to that? In 2015? We never saw it last year, and I'm not even sure if we saw it the year before. My point is players and people and systems change, and when talking about players of this caliber (both EM and PH), I think they can as well. So what I saw with EM and PH is no different then what I saw with Sprong and Simon - something promising that I want to see more of. Yet we seem to have zero issues around here praising the latter to the high heavens, while dismissing the former.

Hornqvist was on ice for about a third of Geno's ES minutes last season according to Dobber. I'd call that pretty serious and if memory serves, their production was poor together.

Sure, things do change, but I'd want more proof of change given that level of history.

Although, since you mention it, I'm a little surprised by how much people are pencilling Simon and Sprong in too. I mean, they've had, 2 games together? 3?

There's more to being a #1D then just puck movement. Letang is a #1D. And there are many many quality PMD out there who are not, nor are close to being #1D's. That's why someone would take that gamble. It's also why we shouldn't - unless you think that Letang will never get back to where he was in 15/16.

I am not sure of this, but I'm not sure the other way either. As such, I'm willing to consider a move that gives us more certainty and that still puts us in a position where we can compete. I believe that with two quality PMD who can play top 4 minutes and two strong defensive dmen like Maatta and Dumo, I think we can do it. Particularly if we have really strong bottom 6 centres.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Really? I like Friedman a lot. That doesn't mean a deal will happen with Montreal and I still believe it's unlikely Letang is traded.

Friedman has a lot more misses when it comes to the Penguins than hits, and his only "hits" were stolen from other people. I really don't buy anything he says about the Penguins unless someone else credible is saying it. He was right with Cole and was right with Sheahan, but he wasn't the first person to break either of those. Anything he was bringing up that was unique sounds pretty bogus.

 

[Gurglesons]

You were definitely the most vocal critic of the deal early on and I'll give you props for that. I said "good value deal" or something, but I admittedly didn't know the player well and thought a trade for a 3C was coming.

Just so obvious half the opinions on here this summer were formed by a we can do no wrong attitude and everything we do worked the past two years so why won’t it again.

Still, incredibly satisfying for basically everything I hinted at in terms of arrogance and line-up issues coming completely true and literally people saying word for word what I said in the summer as evident in that post about Hunwick four or five posts up there.

Reaves and Hunwick were just terribly short sighted. At least Hunwick and Oleksiak look pretty good together.

 

[ZeroPucksGiven]

Edit: a top 6 forward that doesn't fit with either of our 2 top Centers. That's reality

So Horny doesn't play well with Sid now? Well that's news to me

 

[NMK11]

So Horny doesn't play well with Sid now? Well that's news to me

Yeah, thats an odd thing to say. I think "he doesn't work well with Sid" is code for "Sid doesn't like playing with him". Which I guess is a legitimate point, but saying they don't produce is flat out wrong.

And Im not an advanced stats guy, but I remember last year when people were saying Horny and Malkin didn't work well together that someone showed that at least stats wise they did. Maybe the bolded below is a start.

Hornqvist was on ice for about a third of Geno's ES minutes last season according to Dobber. I'd call that pretty serious and if memory serves, their production was poor together.

Sure, things do change, but I'd want more proof of change given that level of history.

Although, since you mention it, I'm a little surprised by how much people are pencilling Simon and Sprong in too. I mean, they've had, 2 games together? 3?

Agree with your last line. While Im about as high on Sprong as most here, Simon does still give me pause. Im all for giving them the games since we need a spark, but lets give them 10-20 games in the NHL before we start saying theyre legit first line players.

 

[cheesedanish87]

. . .

That's old news.

Friedman made those comments on Dec 29th.

JR literally came out yesterday and said a trade wouldn't fix the pens issues.

 

[Fordy]

i'm more interested in positive predictions than negative predictions because when you call everything negative you'll always be right eventually. every team and player has bad stretches

 

[Fordy]

Yeah, thats an odd thing to say. I think "he doesn't work well with Sid" is code for "Sid doesn't like playing with him". Which I guess is a legitimate point, but saying they don't produce is flat out wrong.

And Im not an advanced stats guy, but I remember last year when people were saying Horny and Malkin didn't work well together that someone showed that at least stats wise they did.

this is my memory as well and i have never liked horny and malkin together for any stretch

 

[Tom Hanks]

this is my memory as well and i have never liked horny and malkin together for any stretch

He’s never had the right winger on the other side with Geno. Maybe Jake/Sheary-Malkin-Hornqvist could work. Would need to figure stuff out soon though to rely on that working.