Sabres Management and Coaching Thread

[Sabre Dance]

Playoffs is playoffs, what else are you gonna use to calibrate?

So making the playoffs makes you playoff caliber? 3/4 of our top 4 never made the playoffs.

 

[Jame]

So making the playoffs makes you playoff caliber? 3/4 of our top 4 never made the playoffs.

Feel free to share your measurable definition of "playoff caliber".

I know that Toronto doesn't hve the best blueline, but thy have a coach that's getting them to the playoffs anyway, because he's good

We have a coach who is not good and objectively makes defensemen worse.

 

[sjci]

So what's the favor Murray did McPhee in the past? This interview is amazing

Neuvirth and Klesla deal

 

[Jame]

Neuvirth and Klesla deal

Good call

 

[littletonhockeycoach]

Feel free to share your measurable definition of "playoff caliber".

I know that Toronto doesn't hve the best blueline, but thy have a coach that's getting them to the playoffs anyway, because he's good

We have a coach who is not good and objectively makes defensemen worse.

Spot on!!

 

[itwasaforwardpass]

re: Kulikov. Who could have foreseen that?

Freak accident, Murray owned it.

People point to Kulikov's injury as the downfall of that trade when in reality, it was a bad move whether he stayed healthy or not. That's not based as much on Kulikov's health or ability as it is based on his expiring contract and improper valuations made by Murray and Bylsma by overvaluing Bogosian and undervaluing Pysyk.

In a league where almost every team is up against the salary cap and every team could use more defensive depth, good young defenseman that are cost controlled are very valuable. Murray traded a cost controlled good young defenseman in Mark Pysyk for one season of Dmitry Kulikov. When you trade for a player on an expiring contract without getting an extension signed, it's basically a rental/tryout. That's rarely a good idea unless you're a team in cup contention.

Even if Kulikov stayed healthy and even if he played great, that acquisition does nothing for the Sabres past the 16-17 season because his contract runs out. After that, the Sabres would be in the same position they are right now along with every other team desperate for defensive help. We'd have the same ability to pay (overpay because that's how UFA works) Kulikov or one of the other mediocre defensemen in this weak UFA class this offseason. Long term, which is mostly what a team like the Sabres should be thinking about, the trade was basically shipping out Pysyk to swap 2nd round picks with Florida.

Could we have gotten Asplund 5 slots later with our own 2nd round pick? What would've it taken to swap picks with Florida or any other team ahead of us and still draft him without giving up Pysyk? We'll never know but surely it shouldn't cost Pysyk to move up those 5 slots in the 2nd round. I really like Asplund as a prospect but even if we are fortunate and he turns into a good player, it's yet another trade sending out our area of desperate need, defensemen, in favor of our already deep forward group.

Obviously, in Murray's mind it was one year of Kulikov in favor of one year of Pysyk because in the expansion draft he was planning on protecting Bogosian over Pysyk. This is my biggest issue with the trade.

Murray was seduced (He's probably not the only GM that would be) by the tantalizing physical tools of Zach Bogosian over the capable but unimposing Mark Pysyk. Bylsma's poor usage of Pysyk and Bogosian are also at fault.

I'm not going to list Pysyk's analytics and state he's an amazing top pairing player or anything close. But Pysyk is a solid 4th or 5th and a hell of a lot better than Bogosian. We gave him away for very little. He's also the type of defenseman we're in need of and lacking: Intelligent, good at shot suppression, good at moving the puck, makes good decisions. Bogosian is the complete opposite of that. In fact most of our defensive core is the complete opposite of that.

The three defensemen that Murray have acquired Gorges, Bogosian, and Kulikov all share similar traits. They're big and physical and can make a big hit. They also lack puck skills, make bad decisions, provide little to nothing offensively while still being awful at shot suppression in their own end. The one trait Pysyk lacked is physicality. When evaluating defensemen, Murray thus far has been to willing to overlook many strengths if you're not physical and will overlook many weaknesses if you are physical.

Bogosian has been a dumpster fire. He's also a dumpster fire that we get to pay 5.1 mil to for the next three seasons after this one. Think how much better a position we'd be in if we had Pysyk to fall back on when Bogosian inevitably gets injured. Pysyk's pairing could get the tougher defensive matchups and allow Risto to flourish offensively. We might even be able to move Bogosian. Instead we're pretty much stuck with Bogo and his contract because we have absolutely nothing in the organization at RHD past Risto.

If we hadn't traded Pysyk away, the obvious choice for the upcoming expansion draft would be to protect Pysyk on his cheap cost controlled contract years away from free agency. Bogosian and his albatross of a contract would be exposed. Vegas will have some quality defensemen to choose from. I'm not sure they'd even select Bogosian. If they didn't then we'd have kept good depth at RHD. But if they did, most of us would be saying good riddance.

 

[pigpen65]

Then why not keep them together?

Why hasn't anybody answered this question?

 

[sincerity0]

Is Ristolainen, McCabe, Kulikov, Bogosian, Gorges, and Franson playoff caliber defense?

Other posters beat me to it but the answer is kind of. I thought they would be good enough to get us to 8th.

Risto steps up, McCabe develops, Kulikov plays the solid 20min a night like he did with Florida and Bogo evens out a bit it was not a far stretch to believe this D core could be average.

I think Murray thought the same way. I also think that he really wanted Fowler and had to settle for Kulikov. A freak accident to Kulikov ruined his season. Not to mention this team had terrible injuries just on the rest of the defense.

He didn't say championship caliber simply playoff caliber. From his previous interviews regarding playoffs, his goal was to get very close / get in 7/8th. Murray expected the defense to live up to that, they didn't. That's on him and he owned up to it. A lot of people in life will deflect blame and he pretty much said it was all on him.

 

[itwasaforwardpass]

Sounds like they already regret not taking Sergachev/Chychrun over Nylander.

I really like Nylander but Sergachev or Chychryn probably should've been the pick. Or better yet a trade for Fowler.

Murray appears to draft BPA regardless of need, but if it's close between a winger and defensemen you should go defensemen, especially when the need is as great as it is. He is a good evaluator of amateur talent and outside of that terrible 2014 2nd rd, he's drafted good players.

However, when you have 8 selections in the first two rounds in the past three years and only 1 out of the 8 selections is a defensemen, you're going to be thin on talent in that area. The blueline also gets expensive when you don't have young defensemen on ELCs. I expect that also to be remedied this upcoming draft with a defensemen selected early.

Fortunately Murray, unlike Bylsma, appears willing to adapt his philosophies. He began his tenure wanting a heavy team. It's a bit late for it but Murray must now recognize our lack of skill on defense is a major issue and he can't have a blueline of mostly unskilled brutes in today's NHL. Acquiring a skilled but unimposing defensemen like Antipin is a good sign.

 

[Sabre Dance]

Why hasn't anybody answered this question?

They dont want to. Its sad how many people will defend Murray to no end. The funny part is I was actually going to defend him but I just wanted to see if people started saying its a playoff defense. lol.

 

[Aladyyn]

Why hasn't anybody answered this question?

Because the poster who asked it is being intentionally dense again?

 

[Sabre Dance]

Other posters beat me to it but the answer is kind of. I thought they would be good enough to get us to 8th.

Risto steps up, McCabe develops, Kulikov plays the solid 20min a night like he did with Florida and Bogo evens out a bit it was not a far stretch to believe this D core could be average.

I think Murray thought the same way. I also think that he really wanted Fowler and had to settle for Kulikov. A freak accident to Kulikov ruined his season. Not to mention this team had terrible injuries just on the rest of the defense.

He didn't say championship caliber simply playoff caliber. From his previous interviews regarding playoffs, his goal was to get very close / get in 7/8th. Murray expected the defense to live up to that, they didn't. That's on him and he owned up to it. A lot of people in life will deflect blame and he pretty much said it was all on him.

Why not keep the defense together, change the coach, and draft and develop defense? Why should we give up assets to get defense then? If everyone believes this is a playoff defense why not be patient and draft defense?

Guhle ready to take over for Gorges after next season. Draft D top 10 and in the 2nd. Develop, hopefully they are ready to replace Bogo and/or Franson in 2 years.

Maybe try and flip Nylander for a D prospect, try and make up for that mistake.

 

[hizzoner]

to quote Sir Alec Guiness, "Now that's a name I have not heard in a long time. A long time."

Meehan was simply bad for BUF, but Bowman did him no favors leading up to that.

The only saving grace of that era was I was in college and rarely had the time to watch between averaging 20 credit hours a semester with honors/engineering, playing a sport, and working occasionally. Any Sabres games I saw were welcome downtime. I was always lukewarm on Turgeon. I don't know of another ppg career player with less impact to his team's success.

My best memory of Meehan was him scoring right in front of me with 15 seconds to go to put Philly out of the playoffs.

 

[Harambae]

I actually dont think either should go. Yet. Id give bylsma one more year but if there isnt any progress by next spring especially with a fullt healthy eichel next season (hopefully) then id look at canning bylsma

 

[Jame]

Because the poster who asked it is being intentionally dense again?

I don't think it's intentional...

Some people truly can't grasp the simple concept of identifying the root cause of the problem (coaching) and simultaneously wanting to improve the roster.

If we thought the defense was good enough, but can identify the problems in the system and the problems behind the bench.... :gasp: we can also want to improve the defense and upgrade existing players.


MY GOSH, HOW DO WE DO IT??!?!?!?!? WALK.... AND CHEW GUM?!?!?!?!?

 

[slip]

I'm beginning to think Murray feels about defensrmen the way Jame feels about goalies. Every major draft pick, every major trade of futures for NHL talent, and his biggest UFA acquisition has targeted forwards. It's no accident our defense blows.

 

[Aladyyn]

I don't think it's intentional...

Some people truly can't grasp the simple concept of identifying the root cause of the problem (coaching) and simultaneously wanting to improve the roster.

If we thought the defense was good enough, but can identify the problems in the system and the problems behind the bench.... :gasp: we can also want to improve the defense and upgrade existing players.


MY GOSH, HOW DO WE DO IT??!?!?!?!? WALK.... AND CHEW GUM?!?!?!?!?

Why did Washington trade for Shattenkirk when their defense was already good enough? Doesn't make any sense at all!

 

[Steddy33]

I'm beginning to think Murray feels about defensrmen the way Jame feels about goalies. Every major draft pick, every major trade of futures for NHL talent, and his biggest UFA acquisition has targeted forwards. It's no accident our defense blows.

Assuming you didn't listen to the interview last night

 

[Icicle]

The only asset worth giving up for defense is Kane. The team just needs a new coach, and healthy defense for once. It's really fairly simple.

We'd be in coyotes position still if it wasn't for Murray, riding Zadorov and Grigorenko to nightly disappointment.

 

[Sabre Dance]

I don't think it's intentional...

Some people truly can't grasp the simple concept of identifying the root cause of the problem (coaching) and simultaneously wanting to improve the roster.

If we thought the defense was good enough, but can identify the problems in the system and the problems behind the bench.... :gasp: we can also want to improve the defense and upgrade existing players.


MY GOSH, HOW DO WE DO IT??!?!?!?!? WALK.... AND CHEW GUM?!?!?!?!?

Fire the coach.

Upgrade the D through the draft. Patiently develop.

 

[Sabre Dance]

Why did Washington trade for Shattenkirk when their defense was already good enough? Doesn't make any sense at all!

You call me dense?

 

[Zip15]

It entered the season, and still is, a bottom-5 blueline - with any coach. Whether they could have snuck into the last wild card if the blueline (and everyone else) stayed healthy, and if nobody had a bad season, and if five other variables absolutely is not the litmus test. It wasn't good enough or deep enough. Period. Murray has to overhaul the blueline this summer.

 

[stokes84]

People point to Kulikov's injury as the downfall of that trade when in reality, it was a bad move whether he stayed healthy or not. That's not based as much on Kulikov's health or ability as it is based on his expiring contract and improper valuations made by Murray and Bylsma by overvaluing Bogosian and undervaluing Pysyk.

In a league where almost every team is up against the salary cap and every team could use more defensive depth, good young defenseman that are cost controlled are very valuable. Murray traded a cost controlled good young defenseman in Mark Pysyk for one season of Dmitry Kulikov. When you trade for a player on an expiring contract without getting an extension signed, it's basically a rental/tryout. That's rarely a good idea unless you're a team in cup contention.

Even if Kulikov stayed healthy and even if he played great, that acquisition does nothing for the Sabres past the 16-17 season because his contract runs out. After that, the Sabres would be in the same position they are right now along with every other team desperate for defensive help. We'd have the same ability to pay (overpay because that's how UFA works) Kulikov or one of the other mediocre defensemen in this weak UFA class this offseason. Long term, which is mostly what a team like the Sabres should be thinking about, the trade was basically shipping out Pysyk to swap 2nd round picks with Florida.

Could we have gotten Asplund 5 slots later with our own 2nd round pick? What would've it taken to swap picks with Florida or any other team ahead of us and still draft him without giving up Pysyk? We'll never know but surely it shouldn't cost Pysyk to move up those 5 slots in the 2nd round. I really like Asplund as a prospect but even if we are fortunate and he turns into a good player, it's yet another trade sending out our area of desperate need, defensemen, in favor of our already deep forward group.

Obviously, in Murray's mind it was one year of Kulikov in favor of one year of Pysyk because in the expansion draft he was planning on protecting Bogosian over Pysyk. This is my biggest issue with the trade.

Murray was seduced (He's probably not the only GM that would be) by the tantalizing physical tools of Zach Bogosian over the capable but unimposing Mark Pysyk. Bylsma's poor usage of Pysyk and Bogosian are also at fault.

I'm not going to list Pysyk's analytics and state he's an amazing top pairing player or anything close. But Pysyk is a solid 4th or 5th and a hell of a lot better than Bogosian. We gave him away for very little. He's also the type of defenseman we're in need of and lacking: Intelligent, good at shot suppression, good at moving the puck, makes good decisions. Bogosian is the complete opposite of that. In fact most of our defensive core is the complete opposite of that.

The three defensemen that Murray have acquired Gorges, Bogosian, and Kulikov all share similar traits. They're big and physical and can make a big hit. They also lack puck skills, make bad decisions, provide little to nothing offensively while still being awful at shot suppression in their own end. The one trait Pysyk lacked is physicality. When evaluating defensemen, Murray thus far has been to willing to overlook many strengths if you're not physical and will overlook many weaknesses if you are physical.

Bogosian has been a dumpster fire. He's also a dumpster fire that we get to pay 5.1 mil to for the next three seasons after this one. Think how much better a position we'd be in if we had Pysyk to fall back on when Bogosian inevitably gets injured. Pysyk's pairing could get the tougher defensive matchups and allow Risto to flourish offensively. We might even be able to move Bogosian. Instead we're pretty much stuck with Bogo and his contract because we have absolutely nothing in the organization at RHD past Risto.

If we hadn't traded Pysyk away, the obvious choice for the upcoming expansion draft would be to protect Pysyk on his cheap cost controlled contract years away from free agency. Bogosian and his albatross of a contract would be exposed. Vegas will have some quality defensemen to choose from. I'm not sure they'd even select Bogosian. If they didn't then we'd have kept good depth at RHD. But if they did, most of us would be saying good riddance.

Pysyk is garbage and this team wouldn't be any better with him than they are without him. A healthy Kulikov is miles better than Pysyk ever has been or will be.

Remember how certain the WGR guys were that Pysyk was going to put Florida over the top.

 

[Sabre Dance]

It entered the season, and still is, a bottom-5 blueline - with any coach. Whether they could have snuck into the last wild card if the blueline (and everyone else) stayed healthy, and if nobody had a bad season, and if five other variables absolutely is not the litmus test. It wasn't good enough or deep enough. Period. Murray has to overhaul the blueline this summer.

That's the answer I expected. Surprised that some decided to sell out for Murray.

 

[joshjull]

It entered the season, and still is, a bottom-5 blueline - with any coach. Whether they could have snuck into the last wild card if the blueline (and everyone else) stayed healthy, and if nobody had a bad season, and if five other variables absolutely is not the litmus test. It wasn't good enough or deep enough. Period. Murray has to overhaul the blueline this summer.

Healthy you feel we have one of the 5 worst defenses in the league?