Sabres attendance

[ValJamesDuex]

re: pandemic - I want to specify that a lot of Sabres fans are Canadian and live just over the border

It's something like 11% I think I heard, plus add another 10-25% when a popular NHL or Canadian team visits and Sabres fans sell their tickets to them.

Many dropped their season tickets this year after the shit show for 10 years became too much (or perhaps they could not make money off reselling their tickets scheme) and the Pegula's cut staff during a pandemic (some could not get a hold of anyone in the ticket office).

The building will slowly fill again now that the yacht is headed in the right direction, the border is semi open (return tests are $200+) but there is still inflation and such too to deal with now.

Should be interesting tonight.

 

[BFLO]

You cant really say "the mandate isnt a factor because it's not affecting the Bills" while saying the border is a factor while the border clearly also isnt affecting the Bills.

I think it's a combination of the 2 as well as shitty product. From what i read other teams are also having attendance issues to a lesser affect

The mandate isn’t stopping unvaccinated fans from attending Bills or Sabres games. They barely even look at the “proof of vaccination”. It’s not affecting attendance.

 

[joshjull]

You cant really say "the mandate isnt a factor because it's not affecting the Bills" while saying the border is a factor while the border clearly also isnt affecting the Bills.

I can say that because the Bills draw from as far away as Syracuse. Their games are one day events on the weekends (with few exceptions) Even for season ticket holders they can draw from a distance away. So any loss of Canadian fans can easily be absorbed by the US side of the border.

Thats not happening with Sabres tickets, certainly not season tickets.

I think it's a combination of the 2 as well as shitty product. From what i read other teams are also having attendance issues to a lesser affect

The attendance issues around the league are largely tied to season ticket issues. Selling a lot of individual game tickets has historically been difficult in most NHL cites. Certainly not all of them. But teams rely on season tickets to drive game day attendance

 

[EichHart]

10+ years no playoffs, failed management, Covid, Canadian border being closed, Eichel, Reinhart, Risto being shipped out. A perfect storm.

 

[joshjull]

Whats wrong with Sabres average attendance this year? It is just light over 8k.

We lost roughly half the season ticket base we had in 19-20 season. When we averaged 17+k. Thats led directly to having roughly half the nightly attendance this season (8-9k).

There will be nights they get big jumps in attendance, like the games around Thanksgiving. But its going to very hard to substantially improveme nightly attendance (back up to 17k) until next season. That would required fans to believe the team is on the right track by the end of the year. If that happens it could lead to a big uptick in season ticket sales for the 22-23 season.

 

[MeenOlViks]

The vaccine mandate has nothing to do with it. It hasn’t even dented the Bills ticket sales.


Cratering the season ticket base after years of sucking is the reason tickets sales/attendance is so bad.

Our season ticket base at one point was roughly 16k. Even in the last few years of sucking it was above 12k. Which created a robust secondary market. Fans could attend games for very cheap. But now we have roughly 6-7k season ticket holders. Something that was set in stone well before the vaccine mandate even happened.



Canadians not being able to cross hasn’t helped either. They couldn’t renew season tickets because they had no idea when they could attend. And the game day tickets took a hit as well.

“The vax mandate has nothing to do with it”. This is totally false, I know a few who will not attend

 

[joshjull]

“The vax mandate has nothing to do with it”. This is totally false, I know a few who will not attend

Thread question -> Why is attendance so bad in Buffalo? Why are they averaging 8-9k a night?

Answer-> We lost roughly half the season ticket base we had in 19-20 season. When we averaged 17+k. Thats led directly to having roughly half the nightly attendance this season (8-9k). All of the season ticket holder erosion happened before the Vaccine mandate existed.

But you know a couple of people who won’t go to games. Cool. I guess we would be averaging 8,002 to 9,002 instead of 8-9k .

 

[TheBarnIsElectric]

Personally, I would think twice about going to a game if there was no vax mandate.

A playoff game? Probably wouldn't stop me, but to just a regular ho hum November game? Why bother with the increased risk?

 

[MeenOlViks]

Thread question -> Why is attendance so bad in Buffalo? Why are they averaging 8-9k a night?

Answer-> We lost roughly half the season ticket base we had in 19-20 season. When we averaged 17+k. Thats led directly to having roughly half the nightly attendance this season (8-9k). All of the season ticket holder erosion happened before the Vaccine mandate existed.

But you know a couple of people who won’t go to games. Cool. I guess we would be averaging 8,002 to 9,002 instead of 8-9k .

Just calling your fallacy. Doubt I’m the only person here who knows a few people not attending due to the mandate. Obviously, the incompetent sufferin is the main culprit here.

 

[dotcommunism]

There are probably more people who are staying away from games because they don't want to be around large crowds in the middle of a pandemic than staying away because of the vaccine requirement.

 

[jc17]

I imagine the drinks that require masks are a bigger deterrent

 

[BG82]

Just calling your fallacy. Doubt I’m the only person here who knows a few people not attending due to the mandate. Obviously, the incompetent sufferin is the main culprit here.

Exactly, I know a few myself. The mandates have become so divided that people are completely biased to the affects they cause by not acknowledging the negative affects. It goes extreme the other way as well.

Its 100% a combination of what pretty much everyone stated. Product, mandates, border and recent history. When we start winning again consistently the arena will start filling up.

 

[Djp]

Problem on attendance…

1. the border crossing. About 25%-40% of the fans cross the border.

2. many STH make up the costs by reselling tickets at marked up prices of $250+ per ticket. They can easily make up the costsreselling 10-15 of the games.

3 fans passed with seeing a core of players get traded and saying rebuild. Fans want a winning team, not a constant rebuilding one.

4 arena vax/ negative test requirements to enter has cost a few thousand fans.

5 because of the Covid uncertainty, Canadian STHdid not renew.

even with that….over 30+ Yrs the attendance for the pre thanksgiving games have been below capacity even in the good years.
Some people are both hills and Sabres fans but the budget is tighter where the fall the buy bills tickets then after bills season 5hey do sabres games. Some of the partial STH are heavy post New Years in game tickets.

 

[Djp]

It's a religious thing for me. I bought into Terry Pegula's message that this is hockey heaven and made a spiritual commitment to the Sabres this season.

you gave them up for the sabbath…?

 

[The Blunder Years]

The vaccine mandate has nothing to do with it. It hasn’t even dented the Bills ticket sales.


Cratering the season ticket base after years of sucking is the reason tickets sales/attendance is so bad.

Our season ticket base at one point was roughly 16k. Even in the last few years of sucking it was above 12k. Which created a robust secondary market. Fans could attend games for very cheap. But now we have roughly 6-7k season ticket holders. Something that was set in stone well before the vaccine mandate even happened.



Canadians not being able to cross hasn’t helped either. They couldn’t renew season tickets because they had no idea when they could attend. And the game day tickets took a hit as well.

I would have gone to 2 Bills games, 2-3 Sabres games, and a handful of Amerks games if they didn’t require a vax… I can’t be the only one.

It’s probably a small impact on aggregate sales but It would be a few more butts in seats at Sabres games.

 

[joshjull]

I would have gone to 2 Bills games, 2-3 Sabres games, and a handful of Amerks games if they didn’t require a vax… I can’t be the only one.

It’s probably a small impact on aggregate sales but It would be a few more butts in seats at Sabres games.

I don’t disagree but that wasn’t really my point. I blame myself for the confusion. I didn’t do a great job making my point clearly in my initial post and have spend several posts since clarifying myself.

When I talk about the vaccine mandate not impacted the attendance problems. I’m talking about the season ticket base cratering. The massive hit they took with season ticket holders happened well before their was ever a vaccine mandate. Those decision were made by STH in late winter/spring.

Thats why I said the mandate had nothing to do with our nightly attendance getting cut roughly in half to 8-9k a night (from 17K in 19-20). Which is how I took the thread question. The drop off in nightly attendance was pretty much in line with our season ticket base getting cut roughly in half. If we had the same season ticket base as 19-20. We would not be anywhere near 8-9k a night.

 

[HogtownSabresfan]

I'd opine that in order of effect:

1. Canadian Border
2. Vaccine requirement
3. Lethargy

1. Bad team again (after a decade of losing a fake .500 doesn’t cut it

2. Canadian border issues (which is larger than just season tickets because it includes day of buyers.) This franchise needs the wealth and population from Canada. Maybe not if they are Bills good but surely when they are this bad.

3. Vaccine requirement. I say a bit because probably large percentage of hockey fans unvaccinated versus general population. The question is whether less vaccinated people would go with no policy. (Not commenting on whether or agree or not.)

4. Lethargy for sure. Sports is suffering everywhere because people discovered other things to do. This team doesn’t exactly bring you back.

 

[The Blunder Years]

I don’t disagree but that wasn’t really my point. I blame myself for the confusion. I didn’t do a great job making my point clearly in my initial post and have spend several posts since clarifying myself.

When I talk about the vaccine mandate not impacted the attendance problems. I’m talking about the season ticket base cratering. The massive hit they took with season ticket holders happened well before their was ever a vaccine mandate. Those decision were made by STH in late winter/spring.

Thats why I said the mandate had nothing to do with our nightly attendance getting cut roughly in half to 8-9k a night (from 17K in 19-20). Which is how I took the thread question. The drop off in nightly attendance was pretty much in line with our season ticket base getting cut roughly in half. If we had the same season ticket base as 19-20. We would not be anywhere near 8-9k a night.

Absolutely agree! The Eichel injury/trade fiasco and pseudo-rebuild were the final nail in the coffin. You can’t even come close to breaking even reselling season tickets. It’s just so sad to see that place empty but one day It will roar again

 

[Kublakhan]

I made a deal with the Pegulas a couple years ago... Start winning again and Then I will start again spending money on this franchise

 

[joshjull]

Exactly, I know a few myself. The mandates have become so divided that people are completely biased to the affects they cause by not acknowledging the negative affects. It goes extreme the other way as well.

Its 100% a combination of what pretty much everyone stated. Product, mandates, border and recent history. When we start winning again consistently the arena will start filling up.

The irony of bolded. The point being made has nothing to do with being pro or anti mandate.

FACT -> Our season ticket base cratered by roughly half. Its the reason our average nightly attendance dropped by roughly half. The amounts are roughly the same
FACT -> There was no vaccine mandate when the season ticket holders made their decisions to renew or not. That came months later.

Thats what I’m talking about. It should be glaringly obvious that the enormous drop in attendance is tied directly to the enormous drop in ST sales (both drop off by roughly half). Something that wasn’t impact at all by the mandate.


Right now there are a variety of reasons fans might not be buying individual game tickets. Your too focused on the mandate.

-Lack of interest or dislike of the team for various reasons (don’t think their good/traded away jack, Sam, etc)
- As you’ve mentioned, the vaccine mandate.
- As @dotcommunism pointed out, some people avoiding crowds (even theoretically vaccinated ones). Doing it out of an abundance of caution for themselves or loved ones with health issues
- Staying away for financial reasons. Many took a hit financially during the last year plus.

But none of that stuff adds up to much in comparison to the the hit the season ticket base cratering had on our nightly attendance. If the above 4 things were the only things we were worried about and the ST base held. We’d be talking about crowds maybe ranging from 15-17k vs 17k as opposed to the current 8-9k vs 17k. Then we could debate until the cows come home which of the 4 things I listed being the biggest reason for any drop off from 17k.

That’s if we even cared or noticed such a small drop. Crowds of 15-17k wouldn’t generate a thread like this.

Just calling your fallacy. Doubt I’m the only person here who knows a few people not attending due to the mandate. Obviously, the incompetent sufferin is the main culprit here.

See above. There was nothing false in what I posted. The season ticket base cratering had nothing to do with the vaccine mandate. It didn’t exist at the time.

The confusion is probably due to me not being clear enough about the point I was making.

 

[Djp]

I can say that because the Bills draw from as far away as Syracuse. Their games are one day events on the weekends (with few exceptions) Even for season ticket holders they can draw from a distance away. So any loss of Canadian fans can easily be absorbed by the US side of the border.

Thats not happening with Sabres tickets, certainly not season tickets.



The attendance issues around the league are largely tied to season ticket issues. Selling a lot of individual game tickets has historically been difficult in most NHL cites. Certainly not all of them. But teams rely on season tickets to drive game day attendance

Bills are also a contending team. If the Sabres very contending this discussion wouldn't exist.

Bills like Sabres have fans all over the country. Many for early season travelled up to go to home games.

We lost roughly half the season ticket base we had in 19-20 season. When we averaged 17+k. Thats led directly to having roughly half the nightly attendance this season (8-9k).

There will be nights they get big jumps in attendance, like the games around Thanksgiving. But its going to very hard to substantially improveme nightly attendance (back up to 17k) until next season. That would required fans to believe the team is on the right track by the end of the year. If that happens it could lead to a big uptick in season ticket sales for the 22-23 season.

half of the STH loss could be attributed to Canadian fans and the vax requirement.

STH for Bills either sold their tickets or got a refund if not vaxxed. There was demand they knew they could keep their seats and resell fora profit. Think eventually such a restriction could be lifted thrn they keep their ststus in STH world.

thus market isn’t there for Sabres reselling.

Thread question -> Why is attendance so bad in Buffalo? Why are they averaging 8-9k a night?

Answer-> We lost roughly half the season ticket base we had in 19-20 season. When we averaged 17+k. Thats led directly to having roughly half the nightly attendance this season (8-9k). All of the season ticket holder erosion happened before the Vaccine mandate existed.

But you know a couple of people who won’t go to games. Cool. I guess we would be averaging 8,002 to 9,002 instead of 8-9k .

not true.

the vax mandates were known to come and did for other sports. It doesn’t take a phD to figure this would occur in buffalo.

Also knowing the likely trades of Reinhsrt and Eichel also played a big part in the product.

I don’t disagree but that wasn’t really my point. I blame myself for the confusion. I didn’t do a great job making my point clearly in my initial post and have spend several posts since clarifying myself.

When I talk about the vaccine mandate not impacted the attendance problems. I’m talking about the season ticket base cratering. The massive hit they took with season ticket holders happened well before their was ever a vaccine mandate. Those decision were made by STH in late winter/spring.

Thats why I said the mandate had nothing to do with our nightly attendance getting cut roughly in half to 8-9k a night (from 17K in 19-20). Which is how I took the thread question. The drop off in nightly attendance was pretty much in line with our season ticket base getting cut roughly in half. If we had the same season ticket base as 19-20. We would not be anywhere near 8-9k a night.

like I said…they knew the vax was going to be required. It was already going to be mandates by employers and fed govt one the vax got FDA EUA removed and get full approval.

vax mandate is a workplace safety issue covered by OSHA and NY stste OSHA regulations. The same applies to large venues of packed people like arena events and restaurants.

The irony of bolded. The point being made has nothing to do with being pro or anti mandate.

FACT -> Our season ticket base cratered by roughly half. Its the reason our average nightly attendance dropped by roughly half. The amounts are roughly the same
FACT -> There was no vaccine mandate when the season ticket holders made their decisions to renew or not. That came months later.

Thats what I’m talking about. It should be glaringly obvious that the enormous drop in attendance is tied directly to the enormous drop in ST sales (both drop off by roughly half). Something that wasn’t impact at all by the mandate.


Right now there are a variety of reasons fans might not be buying individual game tickets. Your too focused on the mandate.

-Lack of interest or dislike of the team for various reasons (don’t think their good/traded away jack, Sam, etc)
- As you’ve mentioned, the vaccine mandate.
- As @dotcommunism pointed out, some people avoiding crowds (even theoretically vaccinated ones). Doing it out of an abundance of caution for themselves or loved ones with health issues
- Staying away for financial reasons. Many took a hit financially during the last year plus.

But none of that stuff adds up to much in comparison to the the hit the season ticket base cratering had on our nightly attendance. If the above 4 things were the only things we were worried about and the ST base held. We’d be talking about crowds maybe ranging from 15-17k vs 17k as opposed to the current 8-9k vs 17k. Then we could debate until the cows come home which of the 4 things I listed being the biggest reason for any drop off from 17k.

That’s if we even cared or noticed such a small drop. Crowds of 15-17k wouldn’t generate a thread like this.




See above. There was nothing false in what I posted. The season ticket base cratering had nothing to do with the vaccine mandate. It didn’t exist at the time.

The confusion is probably due to me not being clear enough about the point I was making.

yes some of STH were dropped because of employment and income issues because they lost their jobs or reduced income where they don’t have the extra income to buy STs.

 

[Djp]

There are probably more people who are staying away from games because they don't want to be around large crowds in the middle of a pandemic than staying away because of the vaccine requirement.

There is some of this but not half the crowds loss explains this.

people feel fine getting together with people who they know are also vaxxed.

people have gone to arena concerts in places that require vaxxed/ testing to get in and everyone is wearing masks.

I have done looked at the local population in a while on WNY area vax percentages. They were lower than National levels for metro areas.

 

[ValJamesDuex]

4. Lethargy for sure. Sports is suffering everywhere because people discovered other things to do. This team doesn’t exactly bring you back.

Yep, Vinyl outsells cd and streaming now for ie.

 

[MeenOlViks]

When is the HF Board vax mandate take effect?

 

[Der Jaeger]

Sabres fans are authentic. Sabretooth is a fake saber tooth tiger. I know that because archeological digs show that the big cats have been extinct for a long time now.

But hope has come. Now we have a dog named Rick. A real dog. Fans will begin to flock back.