OT: s o f t players d i s c u s s i o n

[Racer88]

I'll play, what is the case for Matthew being softer than Marner? Jarnkrok? Holmberg? Robertson? Nylander? Tavares? Kampf? Liljegren? OEL? Rielly?

I will give you Reaves, Domi, McMann, Knies, Dewar, Benoit, McCabe, Tanev and Hakanpaa.

Number three or four, eh? Go ahead tell me why he softer than 7 or 8 of those guys listed above.

He is big an strong and needs to physically dominate his opponents and drop some massive hits on them

 

[conFABulator]

He is big an strong and needs to physically dominate his opponents and drop some massive hits on them

Ohh, I am sorry. I thought you had a position of substance and I asked you to back it up.

Is your answer, because you would like him to drop more massive hits that makes him softer than all but two or three Maple Leafs? That's ridiculous

 

[Racer88]

Ohh, I am sorry. I thought you had a position of substance and I asked you to back it up.

Is your answer, because you would like him to drop more massive hits that makes him softer than all but two or three Maple Leafs? That's ridiculous

I’m sorry that you don’t like my reasoning but that’s a you problem.

 

[Canadian Finn]

76% eh.

always fun talking to the 24%.

they the best.

 

[conFABulator]

I’m sorry that you don’t like my reasoning but that’s a you problem.

You know what? My bad. I didn't exactly make a solid and supported response. Me finding something "ridiculous" is an opinion and no more or less valid than yours. Apologies.

I find it ridiculous because...it seems as though your position is based on comparing him to what you want/hope/expect him to be rather than against what his teammates actually are.

You didn't say he is not as tough as he should be, you said he was softer than all but two or three Leafs. I could agree with the former, but absolutely disagree with the latter.

You also didn't actually provide reasoning or an answer to my question. I asked what made all but two or three of those ten guys tougher than Matthews? You didn't even try to answer.

 

[LeafGrief]

This is like arguing over podium positions at the upcoming soft Olympics.

Let's be clear up front that the team is full of absolutely world-class softies. I think that Marner crying in the penalty box and taking the puck around an empty net in the playoffs are the softest things I've ever seen in an NHL game, so I think he's the runaway favourite in this competition (and it is therefore unsurprising that the judges seem to agree). Matthews is soft relative to expectations and potential, JT is beyond soft as a leader, and Nylander is a modern player who engages just enough physically to excel, but has nary an ounce of sandpaper in him.

Gold medal - Marner
Silver medal - Tavares
Bronze medal - Matthews

First runner-up - Trevor Zegras

Incredible that our Leafs run a clean-sweep of the podium in the softest players event! Adding in their Highest Paid Players medals make this one of the most decorated Leafs groups ever! Run it back, run it back again!

 

[Ianturnedbull]

Where are the boxes for Roberston and Domi? They both hit less than any other Leaf forward. Play the softest defence of anyone on the team. Hit and block less than Marner. Both players are the perfect definition of perimiter players and easy to play against. Just because Domi fights 4 games out of 80 doesn't make him tough. As for players like Matthews and Tavares being soft count the number of crosschecks they take in a game. Domi takes less in a season than they do in a game.

As far as Liljegren and OEL being on the list They both out hit Devon Teows last year and I don't think anyone would call him soft. Anyone putting OEL on the list is simply putting him there because he is European and follows the stupid narrative since Ballard started all this garbage about "Chicken" Swedes. Go watch some video of him in Florida he is anything but soft.
This narrative the Liljegren is soft also really needs to stop. He had 116 blocks and 92 hits in 55 games. He blocked more shots than Benoit in less games. 4th most blocks on the D-core so when people say he doesn't block shots or hit it is simply not factual.

Ok. I'll add Domi and Robertson.

 

[Ianturnedbull]

IMHO this sounds miserable to live like this and more people should enjoy the board as a form of entertainment and not take obvious hyperbole as a literal statement.



Also, did you count the 188 times he used this statement and has he been wrong every single time?

Are you now saying things you don't mean and taking away from the intelligent discussion?

This seems very hypocritical and like you'd rather join the "spew arrogant nonsense" club.

Who are you aiming this at?

I appreciate skill too, but there has to be a balance. There are a lot of strong opinions and regular posters in HF leafs who have certain tendencies. They love to target veterans, 6th/7th defenseman, enforcers, and the 12th/13th forward.

"Soft" is what some players are labeled. Sadly certain players are labeled "useless".

It's a balance...

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Real issue is too many soft players in total .. every team can carry 1 or 2 in playoffs if they can score goals .. we have a boatload of them

 

[Boxscore]

Real issue is too many soft players in total .. every team can carry 1 or 2 in playoffs if they can score goals .. we have a boatload of them

Correct. The cap is dedicated to 4 soft and skilled offensive players. We know signing Tavares was a colossal mistake but, at the very least, Marner should have been traded for a Tkachuk, Miller, or Konecny type by now.

Tavares needs to come off the books. Nylander has proven to be one of the best value players of the lot. Marner is a disaster waiting to happen. Matthews is an uber-talented, elite goal scorer but he's soft as Kleenex and cannot carry the team. We better hope Berube has the magic elixir or it will be more of the same until a couple of these guys are moved.

 

[HolyCrap]

Honestly. I think the entire core are soft both physically and mentally. You could make valid points arguing back and forth for each one. But at the end of the day not one stands out as a player that sacrifices their body, steps up when it counts and leads the team to success when the game gets tough. Just my opinion.

 

[Ianturnedbull]

Auston Matthews vs:

Dave Matthews
Matthew Sweet
Matthew Good

Which one could he survive in The Octogon against?

 

[Racer88]

You know what? My bad. I didn't exactly make a solid and supported response. Me finding something "ridiculous" is an opinion and no more or less valid than yours. Apologies.

I find it ridiculous because...it seems as though your position is based on comparing him to what you want/hope/expect him to be rather than against what his teammates actually are.

You didn't say he is not as tough as he should be, you said he was softer than all but two or three Leafs. I could agree with the former, but absolutely disagree with the latter.

You also didn't actually provide reasoning or an answer to my question. I asked what made all but two or three of those ten guys tougher than Matthews? You didn't even try to answer.

Fair enough, framed like that I agree. Against his team mates maybe he is not as bad as I stated. There are some others that are really soft but for a big man he is still very soft

 

[conFABulator]

Fair enough, framed like that I agree. Against his team mates maybe he is not as bad as I stated. There are some others that are really soft but for a big man he is still very soft

See. I guess there is often common ground if we aren't always coming out swinging...again, referring to your post as ridiculous without context or effort was lazy on my part.

Matthews could absolutely be more physical and he has the size for sure. He is not without physicality though. He does hit, he does block shots, and he does stick up for his teammates...all more than he used to. The good news is I see this as part of his game that is growing and I believe will continue to. He is more confident, stronger and understands that it can be an important part of his game.

 

[Boxscore]

Matthews could absolutely be more physical and he has the size for sure. He is not without physicality though. He does hit, he does block shots, and he does stick up for his teammates.

Negative. For all these padded "hit" stats Matthews has accumulated over the years, recall one of those hits that were significant, memorable, or intimidating. There aren't any. Eric Lindros had more memorable hits in one game than Matthews has had over an 8-year career. His hit stats are the most hollow I've ever seen. Matthews is soft as putty, let's be honest.

Sticks up for his teammates? Surely you jest. He got rag-dolled and embarrassed by Stamkos... he doesn't even stand up for himself, let alone his players, lol. His soft game in the playoffs is a big reason the Leafs have won 1 round during his career. Matthews has zero dawg in him. He's a big teddy bear who randomly bumps into guys which pads his hit stats.

Call him a brilliant goal scorer and I'm right there with you, lock-step. But we need to stop trying to "pad his overall value" by piling up the wild narratives about his "defensive play" and "hits" like he's a combo of Bob Gainey and Cam Neely.

When we're debating Matthews' physical play, we're clearly compensating for a star offensive player who has continually come up small in crunch time. And, we can't have that.

 

[conFABulator]

Negative. For all these padded "hit" stats Matthews has accumulated over the years, recall one of those hits that were significant, memorable, or intimidating. There aren't any. Eric Lindros had more memorable hits in one game than Matthews has had over an 8-year career. His hit stats are the most hollow I've ever seen. Matthews is soft as putty, let's be honest.

Sticks up for his teammates? Surely you jest. He got rag-dolled and embarrassed by Stamkos... he doesn't even stand up for himself, let alone his players, lol. His soft game in the playoffs is a big reason the Leafs have won 1 round during his career. Matthews has zero dawg in him. He's a big teddy bear who randomly bumps into guys which pads his hit stats.

Call him a brilliant goal scorer and I'm right there with you, lock-step. But we need to stop trying to "pad his overall value" by piling up the wild narratives about his "defensive play" and "hits" like he's a combo of Bob Gainey and Cam Neely.

When we're debating Matthews' physical play, we're clearly compensating for a star offensive player who has continually come up small in crunch time. And, we can't have that.

Sigh...

I didn't say he was as tough as Lindros or as tough as he can be or should be.

I simply said he is nowhere near the softest Leaf, or top three.

He did not get rag dolled by Stamkos, he didn't win the fight, but he got into one and that is the progress I mentioned.

 

[ULF_55]

Ok. I'll add Domi and Robertson.

Does that mean we can all vote for marner again?

 

[ULF_55]

Negative. For all these padded "hit" stats Matthews has accumulated over the years, recall one of those hits that were significant, memorable, or intimidating. There aren't any. Eric Lindros had more memorable hits in one game than Matthews has had over an 8-year career. His hit stats are the most hollow I've ever seen. Matthews is soft as putty, let's be honest.

Sticks up for his teammates? Surely you jest. He got rag-dolled and embarrassed by Stamkos... he doesn't even stand up for himself, let alone his players, lol. His soft game in the playoffs is a big reason the Leafs have won 1 round during his career. Matthews has zero dawg in him. He's a big teddy bear who randomly bumps into guys which pads his hit stats.

Call him a brilliant goal scorer and I'm right there with you, lock-step. But we need to stop trying to "pad his overall value" by piling up the wild narratives about his "defensive play" and "hits" like he's a combo of Bob Gainey and Cam Neely.

When we're debating Matthews' physical play, we're clearly compensating for a star offensive player who has continually come up small in crunch time. And, we can't have that.

Remember the two times Nylander took exception this past season and initiated a scrum?

And then he gets into Matthews and marner's face on the bench?

Someone find out what he ate those days and feed it to ...

 

[notDatsyuk]

Im going to miss Bertuzzi/Domi together. They added some much needed nastyness to the top 6. It was enjoyable watching them target Marchand in the playoffs and bully him a bit. Hopefully losing Bertuzzi doesnt make Domi less physical or makes him try to do everthing imself like Kadri in the past.

Very true. Kadri was at his best when he let Komarov be the disturber. When they were separated was when Kadri got into trouble. When he got traded, that pressure was off and he performed.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Because as soon as you look past that super small sample size you realize that it is the outlier...

This is not hard to figure out, but if you want an answer here:

Yes, Nylander had more blocked shots last playoff, it has been established that Marner had a terrible playoff.

In the last 5 years, this is the only year that Nylander had more blocked shots, and over that span, the blocked shots are 29 to 15 for Marner.

Seems like last year is not the norm, but you'll likely find a way to convince yourself it was.

Oddly enough, I didn't say it was the norm. All I was doing was responding to someone who said Matthews had more in these playoffs.

 

[Antropovsky]

Very true. Kadri was at his best when he let Komarov be the disturber. When they were separated was when Kadri got into trouble. When he got traded, that pressure was off and he performed.

Yup, Dubas saw Kadri's passion and competitive spirit and couldnt have it on his team. First sign Dubas has really never been in organized sports. Reality is he shouldve been looking for more players like Kadri, instead of less.

 

[Boxscore]

Remember the two times Nylander took exception this past season and initiated a scrum?

And then he gets into Matthews and marner's face on the bench?

Someone find out what he ate those days and feed it to ...

Yes, Nylander, for all his warts, has honestly been the best value pick of the lot, all things considered.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Where are the boxes for Roberston and Domi? They both hit less than any other Leaf forward. Play the softest defence of anyone on the team. Hit and block less than Marner. Both players are the perfect definition of perimiter players and easy to play against. Just because Domi fights 4 games out of 80 doesn't make him tough. As for players like Matthews and Tavares being soft count the number of crosschecks they take in a game. Domi takes less in a season than they do in a game.

As far as Liljegren and OEL being on the list They both out hit Devon Teows last year and I don't think anyone would call him soft. Anyone putting OEL on the list is simply putting him there because he is European and follows the stupid narrative since Ballard started all this garbage about "Chicken" Swedes. Go watch some video of him in Florida he is anything but soft.
This narrative the Liljegren is soft also really needs to stop. He had 116 blocks and 92 hits in 55 games. He blocked more shots than Benoit in less games. 4th most blocks on the D-core so when people say he doesn't block shots or hit it is simply not factual.

I don't think who's on the list is relevant, at least not as much as who isn't.

If nobody thinks OEL is soft, nobody votes for him, so who cares?

I'm surprised JT is on there, as I would say he's anything but soft, but he has three votes.

I'm more surprised that Nylander wasn't on originally. I wouldn't call him the softest, but I know there are some who do (largely I think because of all the direct comparisons between him and their favorite).

 

[Boxscore]

Sigh...

I didn't say he was as tough as Lindros or as tough as he can be or should be.

I simply said he is nowhere near the softest Leaf, or top three.

He did not get rag dolled by Stamkos, he didn't win the fight, but he got into one and that is the progress I mentioned.

Tossing out hollow hits as a stat line to paint a picture that Matthews isn't soft is like saying Babe Ruth understood the art of bunting... it's completely irrelevant and a major stretch. Ironically, it only comes up after he no-shows in the playoffs and fans feel the need to defend him at all costs.

To be completely honest, Matthews doesn't have enough dawg or grime in his game to be effective physically. He should laser focus on scoring goals, fighting for position, and elevating his game in the playoffs... that should be his only mission at this point.

We don't need him to be a watered-down Chris Gratton physically or a wannabe Joel Otto defensively. We need him to score, and score a lot, when it matters. One job.

He's definitely near the softest Leaf... maybe the softest. Heck, I have him 1-2 with Marner. Flip a coin. In Marner's defense, he's small and rail thin... maybe 180 with rocks in his pocket... I don't care what NHL.com says. But Auston is what... 6-3 and a solid 220?

And, yes, he got tossed around by Stamkos who is another offensive-minded scorer and a far cry from Brady Tkachuk, lol. Here's the thing, physicality shouldn't even be an issue with Matthews. Nobody cared that Bossy and Lafleur didn't play the body... because they scored oodles of goals with playoff games on the line.

But the softness Matthews possesses is more than not being able to beat Stamkos in a fight or hit like Lindros... he appears to be mentally soft and has no extra gear, burning desire to win, or hatred of losing. Crosby and MacKinnon aren't Messier and Neely either but they are filled with intensity and passion and are fueled by hating to lose. This is what we need to see from Matthews... forget about the bogus hit counts on Hockeydb.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Does that mean we can all vote for marner again?

Not 'again', but everyone who voted for someone else can correct their mistake.