Player Discussion Ryan Spooner

[BobMarleyNYR]

Just admitting... right after the TDL I compared Zibanejad's value to that of Spooner's... that gap has been blown open.

 

[Machinehead]

How do they get the top talent by being halfway good?

They tried through UFAs, the Nash trade, and it still left them short of the Cup even with the best or one of the best goalies in his prime.

Other than them getting a Barzel in the mid 1st round of the draft, or a Bergeron with a 2nd, etc, or making a trade with Edmonton for a former top pick, or them getting another Gomez/McD, which are all low odds of happening, they need to draft those types early in the first round. Even the mid or later picks they won't have the chances as they will be selling those picks off at the deadlines to make their halfway good team seem a little better.

Picking top 5 is not the only way to get elite talent.

If it happens, it happens, but deliberately making the team worse has never worked.

 

[Doctyl]

Also, Smith was always going to struggle in AV's defensive scheme sham even if he was in the best shape of his life.

Let them enter the zone always

 

[Doctyl]

Trading an unsigned Spooner at the draft might be one of the dumbest things we could do right now.

 

[Machinehead]

Trading an unsigned Spooner at the draft might be one of the dumbest things we could do right now.

Exactly. No value.

Let him stay and continue to up his value. If he turns out to be a decent middle six player then you keep him if the team is improving, or sell him if they're not for a much bigger deal than we would get for his rights.

If he continues churning out 2.50+ p/60 then we have a first line center on a bargain deal, cookies for everyone.

There isn't a scenario where keeping him hurts us.

 

[Machinehead]

If this team is really that bad that they're going to pick in the top 5 for a couple of years, then it's just going to happen and Ryan Spooner is not going to prevent it from happening.

If it turns out we're not that bad, forcing ourselves to be that bad is short-sighted and destructive.

 

[Off Sides]

Pick top 5 is not the only way to get elite talent.

If it happens, it happens, but deliberately making the team worse has never worked.

So how do they get elite talent? Or how have other teams received their elite talents?

More often than not they received it by drafting early in the first round.

While it is possible to get a Karlsson at #15 or various other player outliers the odds are not good.

By the time those elite player make it to UFA if they do they have some sort of decline on top of a huge contract where it's likely they decline further on that contract.

I could argue the Rangers have made the roster deliberately worse since they made the finals, even if they thought they were making it better.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

Spooner is in a sweetheart scenario right now to pump up his value. A talented offensive player on a skeleton roster who, at this point, doesn't really need to worry all that much about defense or winning hockey games.

With said pressures of playing on the other side of the puck and winning games, he has shown to be the typical top 6 tweener center that we are painfully used to.

 

[Machinehead]

So how do they get elite talent? Or how have other teams received their elite talents?

Lower picks, free agency, trades. There's tons of elite players that weren't taken by lottery picks but people just choose not to see it.

More often than not they received it by drafting early in the first round.

While it is possible to get a Karlsson at #15 or various other player outliers the odds are not good.

You keep talking about odds, but if we have the worst record in the NHL, we have a 51.9% chance of not picking in the top three. We have just a 22% chance of picking top two. Picks 3-10 have virtually the same odds of landing an NHL player.

You talk about odds, but you want us to sabotage the next 4-5 years by outsting young players, for a 22% chance.

By the time those elite player make it to UFA if they do they have some sort of decline on top of a huge contract where it's likely they decline further on that contract.

It's not any different if you draft that player. Time and economics still apply to them.

We've been overpaying Lundqvist the entire time we've contended.

I could argue the Rangers have made the roster deliberately worse since they made the finals, even if they thought they were making it better.

Then it wasn't deliberate.

 

[stan the caddy]

Can't you cheap it out and then go to arbitration and work a 2 year bridge contract? Sounds good to me.

 

[Off Sides]

Lower picks, free agency, trades. There's tons of elite players that weren't taken by lottery picks but people just choose not to see it.



You keep talking about odds, but if we have the worst record in the NHL, we have a 51.9% chance of not picking in the top three. We have just a 22% chance of picking top two. Picks 3-10 have virtually the same odds of landing an NHL player.

You talk about odds, but you want us to sabotage the next 4-5 years by outsting young players, for a 22% chance.



It's not any different if you draft that player. Time and economics still apply to them.

We've been overpaying Lundqvist the entire time we've contended.



Then it wasn't deliberate.

Over the years yes there are some elite player taken outside of lottery picks, like less than ~1 per draft, the odds are so low.

Getting a NHL player by whatever you definition is, with picks 3-10 is different than getting an elite player.

Economically, signing Tavares at 28 year old for 7 years is the same as drafting a player having on an entry level for 3 years and then still holding his RFA rights for 3-4 more years?

They contended for three seasons with Lundqvist unless making the 2nd round is your idea of contention.

 

[Machinehead]

Over the years yes there are some elite player taken outside of lottery picks, like less than ~1 per draft, the odds are so low.

Getting a NHL player by whatever you definition is, with picks 3-10 is different than getting an elite player.

Economically, signing Tavares at 28 year old for 7 years is the same as drafting a player having on an entry level for 3 years and then still holding his RFA rights for 3-4 more years?

They contended for three seasons with Lundqvist unless making the 2nd round is your idea of contention.

We have Namestnikov and Spooner under RFA control right now and people still want to trade them to get even younger.

 

[kovazub94]

Over the years yes there are some elite player taken outside of lottery picks, like ~1 per draft, the odds are so low.

Getting a NHL player by whatever you definition is, with picks 3-10 is different than getting an elite player.

Economically, signing Tavares at 28 year old for 7 years is the same as drafting a player having on an entry level for 3 years and then still holding his RFA rights for 3-4 more years?

They contended for three seasons with Lundqvist unless making the 2nd round is your idea of contention.

I don't think you realize how small 20% is (to count on).

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Spooner is in a sweetheart scenario right now to pump up his value. A talented offensive player on a skeleton roster who, at this point, doesn't really need to worry all that much about defense or winning hockey games.

With said pressures of playing on the other side of the puck and winning games, he has shown to be the typical top 6 tweener center that we are painfully used to.

Spooner all star breakout for 2018-19 confirmed.

 

[Off Sides]

I don't think you realize how small 20% is (to count on).

What are the other options to get elite skaters who can help them win a Cup?

Hoping less than a 1% chance comes through outside of a lottery pick?

Some Long term expensive UFA signing finally works out, because other than Chara and Hossa I have yet to see any of that type who have changed teams, signed for over 5 years, over 6M cap hit, who really helped their team win a cup, or are even be considered good contracts?

Make trades, like the one that brought in Nash or the one that sent Thornton to San Jose?

The CBA is written to reward bad teams and very good teams, like it or not that is how they designed it. If you are a middle of the road team you are being punished with lower odds to get better picks and you are not winning a Cup. Spooner in conjunction with these other players makes the Rangers a middle of the road team.

 

[Trxjw]

He's hot now but it's not like he's been unproductive in his career to date. He's just inconsistent which is what makes him a middle six option instead of a top line guy. I think that unless a team offers up an overpayment or his contact demands are outrageous he's worth extending. Especially if the team is going to deal Zucc. He can take that spot on the RW until a better option emerges.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

The problem is you're not only looking at a small chance at an elite pick you're also looking at the fact that even at #1 overall you're not getting yourself Crosby and McDavid every year. Not by a long shot. You need to suck in the right year.

 

[Off Sides]

We have Namestnikov and Spooner under RFA control right now and people still want to trade them to get even younger.

They are decent players some other team could probably use behind their elite or near elite players. The Rangers using them behind Kreider, Zbad, Buch who none are near elite does nothing but makes the roster at best, pretty good.

I think we come from two vastly different viewpoints. I want a Cup and anything that is not leading towards it can go if whatever is returning could lead towards it. I'd take 22% for several year straight if that is what it takes to give the team 5-7 or so years worth of real chances at some point to win a Cup.

In my view they need an entry level Stamkos, Crosby, Malkin, Kane type player on top of a Doughty, Hedman and getting both some elite/near elite forwards and defense all playing in the NHL at the same time before decline is not likely happening through means outside of the top of draft.

They may get a Keith or Letang outside of the top picks if they are lucky but getting both that and the forwards I find very unlikely and I actually like their drafting. They may get a McD for Gomez but that happened exactly once. I see those type of moves as, yes do them, but relying on them is a bad strategy.

If Spooner can both return something good and make the team not so good so they can get nearer to a top pick, I'm all for it and it's not only him. I don't care who they have to move to increase the odds. I like Buch, Kreider, Zbad but hey if some team wants one of them in order for the Ranger to move up where they think they can get a prospect they feel has elite/near elite potential so be it.

If this draft is not the one to try that in, I don't know, that comes down to their scouting, if next draft or the one after is better, fine, use Spooner/whoever then if they can but in between they don't need to be changing plans. If they end up pretty good does the plan change? If so, I don't really want them to be just pretty good and be tempted to think they don't need what they really do, some elite skaters on top of a pretty good supporting cast, not just a supporting cast on top of another lesser supporting cast.

 

[Inferno]

That may be, I just believe that type of team building is going to lead to the same thing they just broke up, a team that has some potential for anything to happen but not one who is going to be one of the odds on favorites. Which leads back to can kicking, without elite or near elite skaters results may vary based on how far a goaltender can take them.

I love you.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

They are decent players some other team could probably use behind their elite or near elite players. The Rangers using them behind Kreider, Zbad, Buch who none are near elite does nothing but makes the roster at best, pretty good.

I think we come from two vastly different viewpoints. I want a Cup and anything that is not leading towards it can go if whatever is returning could lead towards it. I'd take 22% for several year straight if that is what it takes to give the team 5-7 or so years worth of real chances at some point to win a Cup.

In my view they need an entry level Stamkos, Crosby, Malkin, Kane type player on top of a Doughty, Hedman and getting both some elite/near elite forwards and defense all playing in the NHL at the same time before decline is not likely happening through means outside of the top of draft.

They may get a Keith or Letang outside of the top picks if they are lucky but getting both that and the forwards I find very unlikely and I actually like their drafting. They may get a McD for Gomez but that happened exactly once. I see those type of moves as, yes do them, but relying on them is a bad strategy.

If Spooner can both return something good and make the team not so good so they can get nearer to a top pick, I'm all for it and it's not only him. I don't care who they have to move to increase the odds. I like Buch, Kreider, Zbad but hey if some team wants one of them in order for the Ranger to move up where they think they can get a prospect they feel has elite/near elite potential so be it.

If this draft is not the one to try that in, I don't know, that comes down to their scouting, if next draft or the one after is better, fine, use Spooner/whoever then if they can but in between they don't need to be changing plans. If they end up pretty good does the plan change? If so, I don't really want them to be just pretty good and be tempted to think they don't need what they really do, some elite skaters on top of a pretty good supporting cast, not just a supporting cast on top of another lesser supporting cast.

You realize you may get those players but you may also get Yakupov or RNH?

 

[Inferno]

If this team is really that bad that they're going to pick in the top 5 for a couple of years, then it's just going to happen and Ryan Spooner is not going to prevent it from happening.

If it turns out we're not that bad, forcing ourselves to be that bad is short-sighted and destructive.

On my phone so I'm too lazy to go back and quote all your posts but I'll try to reply to the general ideas you're going with.

Can u name me 5 teams that didn't bottom out that have won a cup in the past...oh..I dunno...20 years?

By bottom out I mean being one of the 5 worst teams in the league for at least a season.

Yes..I get that it's not a guarantee of winning but are there any examples of it not happening?

I can't even think of one other than the red wings...and wasn't yzerman a 1oa?

And that was precap. Post cap it's next to impossible. Sure..the NhL is littered with stars not taken in the first 5 picks...but you've got almost no examples of teams finding more than 1...
You can't win by getting your stars thru free agency. You need to draft high and draft well.

I just don't get why so many ppl refuse to acknowledge this.

Omgz the oilers prove this doesn't work! Negative causality is absolute bullcrap. Find one example and state it as the reason.

There are no guarantees but if you really want to win a cup..you need super high end cost controlled prospects...and you need to make hard decisions when it comes to the middle and bottom of your lineup.

A guy like spooner..might be good for an extra 3 or 4 wins next year...those 3 or 4 wins might be the difference between the 7th overall pick and the first.

Do any of us really expect this team to be a playoff team next year? I Sure don't.

Then sell off the assets at their peak.

Right now spooner is on fire. This is great. I hope he keeps it up. Then flip him and something else to an idiot like chiarelli for their first rounder.

Half assing this rebuild is what leads to thinking that u can build your top line around dubinsky and giving out massive contracts to drury Gomez redden etc

So this right.
Trade mza at the draft.

Trade 1 of spooner or namestnikov.

Sign Hayes and Skjei.
Build build build.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

I agree that a top pick is the best way to get elite talent but I don't want to watch 5 years of garbage and hope we get top 3 picks and don't f*** up the picks.

 

[Inferno]

You realize you may get those players but you may also get Yakupov or RNH?

Yes...and you can also get stds from sex...so ppl should stay virgins.

You do your homework and trust in your decision making. Sure sometimes u get a rnh...but sometimes you get a Patrick Kane....and it's generally farm more likely that you'll get a stud than a bust drafting super high.

The reverse becomes true when you're mediocre and drafting 14th all the time...you can draft a barzal...but you can also draft a

Patrick DesRochers

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[Ghost of jas]

I agree that a top pick is the best way to get elite talent but I don't want to watch 5 years of garbage and hope we get top 3 picks and don't **** up the picks.

There are no guarantees. But, the Rangers have never truly built a team in this manner in my lifetime. I’m looking forward to see if it can happen here.

 

[Inferno]

I agree that a top pick is the best way to get elite talent but I don't want to watch 5 years of garbage and hope we get top 3 picks and don't **** up the picks.

fair enough. Personally I'd rather watch 3 or 4 years of trash followed by 10 years of success rather than watching 13 or 14 years of mediocrity.