RW Matvei Michkov (2023, 7th, PHI) Part 4

[GKJ]

It always end well when players become above the coach

The coach is above the president and GM here, so everything being upside down makes sense.

 

[Rich Nixon]

It’s not a mystery where it comes from. Every Flyers fan has experienced the exact same futility you have. It’s just that the self-hating arrogance is every bit as obnoxious as the contingent who adores Tortorella and rationalizes every decision the org makes. Lording your enlightened despair over people who dare to say “maybe Briere actually has made some decent moves so far” is the part that irks. Nobody is forcing you to remain a Flyers fan. Ridiculing fans for being… fans… is just a whacko inversion of the point of caring. You’re not actually the enlightened one you think you are. It’s a personality disorder at this point.

There's no self-hating involved, I (like every other Comcast customer) just hate Comcast.

And granting little passes and compliments is difficult when you don't see the actions adding up to anything. Like, cool, glad they got great value for Provorov, and then what? I'm willing to grant Briere the benefit of the doubt: I do think he's smarter than the people he works for. But I'm not convinced he has the power to flex those muscles, if his job was contingent on keeping Coach Tuff Talk employed, and said coach has either blocked or forced a number of transactions in their year working together. They gotta show a vision, not just marketing materials around A NEW ERA OF ORANGE.

 

[FlyguyOX]

Funny, that sure doesn't look like what I said. Let me go back and check. *squints*

You'll have to give me a second, my eyesight isn't what it used to be, and it used to be pretty bad.

Nope, don't see anything about that there. Never said it's impossible for a good coach to leave a team. Hell, I didn't even say Torts was a bad coach.

What I did say was that Torts ran his own ass off from teams, because his schtick got tired and the players (and management) had enough.

"Ran his own ass off" makes zero sense.

There's two reasons a coach leaves a team: Results aren't good enough, or players have tuned them out which usually goes along with results that aren't good enough. So you're saying players eventually tune him out, and that apparently makes him a bad coach. Thus, other coaches who have left other teams for the same reason must be bad coaches.

 

[Random Forest]

There's no self-hating involved, I (like every other Comcast customer) just hate Comcast.

And granting little passes and compliments is difficult when you don't see the actions adding up to anything. Like, cool, glad they got great value for Provorov, and then what? I'm willing to grant Briere the benefit of the doubt: I do think he's smarter than the people he works for. But I'm not convinced he has the power to flex those muscles, if his job was contingent on keeping Coach Tuff Talk employed, and said coach has either blocked or forced a number of transactions in their year working together. They gotta show a vision, not just marketing materials around A NEW ERA OF ORANGE.

That’s great. I don’t care to go line by line through Briere’s moves and debate his performance. This is about letting fans be fans instead of sitting there in one corner of the fanbase arrogantly ridiculing people for not being as completely despondent as you are. (Using “you” generally here to refer to HFFlyers, not specifically you)

 

[ponder719]

That’s great. I don’t care to go line by line through Briere’s moves and debate his performance. This is about letting fans be fans instead of sitting there in one corner of the fanbase arrogantly ridiculing people for not being as completely despondent as you are. (Using “you” generally here to refer to HFFlyers, not specifically you)

I don't see why the people here who have a negative opinion about the roster should be held to a different standard than the Reddit and Facebook part of the fanbase. Walk into one of those places with a slightly critical opinion, and they act like you murdered their dog. I have actually been threatened (not that I took it seriously, but still) for thinking Zack MacEwen was bad at hockey. Frankly, I'm glad that at least on here, we can criticize the team and know that we aren't alone in feeling like there are legitimate problems to correct. If you're happy with the treadmill, that's great, I wish I could be that optimistic, but you'll find an awful lot of people in an awful lot of places on the internet that share that opinion. You just happen to be in the one place the rest of us got driven off to.

 

[Rich Nixon]

That’s great. I don’t care to go line by line through Briere’s moves and debate his performance. This is about letting fans be fans instead of sitting there in one corner of the fanbase arrogantly ridiculing people for not being as completely despondent as you are. (Using “you” generally here to refer to HFFlyers, not specifically you)

Yeah, but I don't see street violence around it, do you? It's people venting on message boards, and HF Flyers became an enclave for that because one doesn't exist elsewhere. You have a vaguely subversive avatar, you likely agree that the lay person doesn't typically look into the mechanisms behind things and instead will accept whatever messaging the TV makes plausible, right? On places like Twitter and Reddit, and at the seats in the arena, you mostly have those folks. "They're cursed!" "We need more big guys who crash into corners hard!" "Torts is the right man for the job, what do you know about hockey????" Stuff like that.

So those of us who are more critical than that, or hold different philosophies on how the sport can be played and won, are here. Being passionate—extremely passionate—about this team. Fans being fans in a different way. And some derision comes with that, because we see the people who keep buying the marketing and pouring money into tickets and all that as enabling the franchise's patterns. Because they can keep doing dumb things without suffering the only consequences they understand, financial.

 

[Random Forest]

I don't see why the people here who have a negative opinion about the roster should be held to a different standard than the Reddit and Facebook part of the fanbase. Walk into one of those places with a slightly critical opinion, and they act like you murdered their dog. I have actually been threatened (not that I took it seriously, but still) for thinking Zack MacEwen was bad at hockey. Frankly, I'm glad that at least on here, we can criticize the team and know that we aren't alone in feeling like there are legitimate problems to correct. If you're happy with the treadmill, that's great, I wish I could be that optimistic, but you'll find an awful lot of people in an awful lot of places on the internet that share that opinion. You just happen to be in the one place the rest of us got driven off to.

See, even here it’s evident. What makes me “optimistic” aside from the fact that I am not completely despondent and reflexively opposed to every decision they make? You’re proving my point.

If I posted on Reddit and Facebook, I would probably find issue with those people. But I don’t. I post here, and I’m observing the behavior of people here.

 

[Random Forest]

Yeah, but I don't see street violence around it, do you? It's people venting on message boards, and HF Flyers became an enclave for that because one doesn't exist elsewhere. You have a vaguely subversive avatar, you likely agree that the lay person doesn't typically look into the mechanisms behind things and instead will accept whatever messaging the TV makes plausible, right? On places like Twitter and Reddit, and at the seats in the arena, you mostly have those folks. "They're cursed!" "We need more big guys who crash into corners hard!" "Torts is the right man for the job, what do you know about hockey????" Stuff like that.

So those of us who are more critical than that, or hold different philosophies on how the sport can be played and won, are here. Being passionate—extremely passionate—about this team. Fans being fans in a different way.

Definitely true. Like I said, it’s not really a mystery why HFFlyers is the way it is. But you’re describing a support group in a lot of ways. The despondency is self-reinforcing, and it takes the form of policing people who aren’t quite as despondent, even when they’re not blind optimists naively rationalizing everything!

 

[Rich Nixon]

Definitely true. Like I said, it’s not really a mystery why HFFlyers is the way it is. But you’re describing a support group in a lot of ways. The despondency is self-reinforcing, and it takes the form of policing people who aren’t quite as despondent, even when they’re not blind optimists naively rationalizing everything!

And that's what it is! I agree that it can be a miserably toxic environment at times. My best real-life buddy (who is on HF Flyers) embodies it pretty well, hard to have any sort of conversation about things in isolation without it turning into the bigger despair hole. Even on this topic—which sucks, because I'm pretty excited for Michkov both as a player on the ice and as the accelerant for change that type of player can represent in an organization.

My dream is that Michkov breaks that. One, it'd be nice if either Torts blows his own foot off trying to f*** with him, to the point the franchise has to off him, or two that they just recognize that they're going to need to assemble and coach a modern NHL contender around this player and that Tortorella probably isn't part of one. But I'm not holding my breath for that part.

But widely, just having a player with as much talent and potential as Michkov should hopefully turn attention back to the ice and remind people to just enjoy the games now and then. When it's just slop on ice, you go looking for the suits that spooned it on there, but with a truly captivating talent, you can start talking about line combos and such again I think.

I'm hopeful. My reservations are the size of the sun still, but I am hopeful.

 

[Hoochi Papa]

After Hextall f***ed up and took Patrick instead of Makar, Philly kind of deserves this one. Too bad it was because of Canadiens being super conservative and using 5th overall on a player with 2nd pair potential (said by GM, not me).

I hate the idea of watching Michkov next 15 years. He was offered on a silver plate. f*** this shit. Just seeing his name makes me furious. That kid is gonna kill me.

 

[Rich Nixon]

OK, inter-Flyers fanbase fractionalization aside, on Michkov...

I am actually sort of bullish on his year 1 production. I think the Vegas over/under is like 46 points and a lot of people out there are going "60 would be great." It would be, but based on my understanding of his play, I think he's much more suited to the NHL game/ice surface than the KHL. About as good of a tight-quarters/on-the-boards guy as I've ever seen (outside of like, Crosby). If he develops some chemistry with Frost, or they wheel and deal their way to another talented young center, I can imagine him touching a point per game.

 

[FlyguyOX]

And that's what it is! I agree that it can be a miserably toxic environment at times. My best real-life buddy (who is on HF Flyers) embodies it pretty well, hard to have any sort of conversation about things in isolation without it turning into the bigger despair hole. Even on this topic—which sucks, because I'm pretty excited for Michkov both as a player on the ice and as the accelerant for change that type of player can represent in an organization.

My dream is that Michkov breaks that. One, it'd be nice if either Torts blows his own foot off trying to f*** with him, to the point the franchise has to off him, or two that they just recognize that they're going to need to assemble and coach a modern NHL contender around this player and that Tortorella probably isn't part of one. But I'm not holding my breath for that part.

But widely, just having a player with as much talent and potential as Michkov should hopefully turn attention back to the ice and remind people to just enjoy the games now and then. When it's just slop on ice, you go looking for the suits that spooned it on there, but with a truly captivating talent, you can start talking about line combos and such again I think.

I'm hopeful. My reservations are the size of the sun still, but I am hopeful.

Torts going on record that he had the team play more of a rush-centric style this season in preparation for the "Mad Russian"'s arrival is encouraging. He literally positioned how his team would play hockey this season around a 19 year old playing a hemisphere away.

 

[Frank Drebin]

I still refuse to believe the contract/russian factor was the reason why he fell to 7th.

But I am continually surprised at the general incompetence of nhl execs so who knows

Should be fun to watch and flyers fans definitely deserve some good news

 

[FlyguyOX]

OK, inter-Flyers fanbase fractionalization aside, on Michkov...

I am actually sort of bullish on his year 1 production. I think the Vegas over/under is like 46 points and a lot of people out there are going "60 would be great." It would be, but based on my understanding of his play, I think he's much more suited to the NHL game/ice surface than the KHL. About as good of a tight-quarters/on-the-boards guy as I've ever seen (outside of like, Crosby). If he develops some chemistry with Frost, or they wheel and deal their way to another talented young center, I can imagine him touching a point per game.

Agree. My optimism is that his playmaking is so elite, that it's bound to push the PP closer to mid league which will bolster his points.

 

[Redpath]

I still refuse to believe the contract/russian factor was the reason why he fell to 7th.

But I am continually surprised at the general incompetence of nhl execs so who knows

Should be fun to watch and flyers fans definitely deserve some good news

Not that he's an NHL executive, but it was dumbfounding during Bob McKenzie's final ranking show yesterday that the co-panelist was asking about the "Russian Factor" with Demidov.

 

[BrindamoursNose]

The guys Torts has run off from teams are guys that are legitimate cancers on the team.

PLD, Johanson, TDA, Hayes, Provorov, etc etc etc

Where did I say Torts would run Michkov off?

I said he's try to ruin him and jerk him around...which the list of top players Tortorella has had beef with is a VERY long list. Can make an All-Star squad with that list. He's a fine coach, but he isn't a good coach.

Tortorella is a dope and I hate that Michkov has to be near him. Can't wait until we drop him.

 

[Rich Nixon]

Torts going on record that he had the team play more of a rush-centric style this season in preparation for the "Mad Russian"'s arrival is encouraging. He literally positioned how his team would play hockey this season around a 19 year old playing a hemisphere away.

I found that highly bizarre because, while Michkov can score any way you want it, I think one of his best assets will be his ability to drive and sustain offensive zone possession.

The Flyers played a rush-centric game because their entire approach is built around chasing (deep forecheck, creating turnovers by crashing in their corners or containing/blocking shots in your own zone, rather than trying to read breakouts) and because they have maybe 3 forwards (Frost, Brink, Farabee) who can competently identify more than one passing option at any given time.

Not to drag this back to the despair hole, but they played a rush-centric offense because they play dumb hockey and employ a lot of dumb hockey players: Tippett, for instance, is all strong legs and wrists, no eyes or brain. Skate fast, shoot. Start an offensive zone cycle and he's gonna bury it in the goalie's logo or turn it over immediately. If that was Torts strategy, then fire him twice—to me, playing how they did was really their only option for winning games, but it's absolutely retrograde and unsustainable.

 

[MrGuyPerson]

Not that he's an NHL executive, but it was dumbfounding during Bob McKenzie's final ranking show yesterday that the co-panelist was asking about the "Russian Factor" with Demidov.

So the "Russian Factor" likely means something a bit different in this draft than people think. I am pretty confident there is unofficial(but actually official) instruction from a number of owners to their organization's ops teams stating, "No Russians". Not every team, but l am pretty confident there are some.

There is really no way to know which teams, but I think it is hinted at in the Bob article on TSN. Some scouts clearly reference "Ownership Input" being needed in making certain selections.

If you could iso which owners would be likely to have this opinion I think you'd have a leg up come draft time. My personal guess would be to look at Teams with individual/family owners. In my mind Corps/private business ownership worship the $$$ and are more likely to only make moves that make them more. Individuals(especially older rich folk that thrived through the cold war) may have personal opinions that influence operational decisions for their assets

 

[Sasha Orlov]

I think his size, defensive commitment and attitude were bigger red flag then his contract.

Revisionist history, most people said he wouldn’t come for at least 3 years and even then weren’t sure

 

[KevSkillz4]

After Hextall f***ed up and took Patrick instead of Makar, Philly kind of deserves this one. Too bad it was because of Canadiens being super conservative and using 5th overall on a player with 2nd pair potential (said by GM, not me).

I hate the idea of watching Michkov next 15 years. He was offered on a silver plate. f*** this shit. Just seeing his name makes me furious. That kid is gonna kill me.

Kent Hughes said potential D2. That's top pairing potential. Yeah Michkov have unreal potential, but Reinbacher have all tools to become a top two-way pairing D. Not bad at all at 5.

 

[Hoochi Papa]

Kent Hughes said potential D2. That's top pairing potential. Yeah Michkov have unreal potential, but Reinbacher have all tools to become a top two-way pairing D. Not bad at all at 5.

Fair enough. Seabrook over Kaprizov.

 

[Sasha Orlov]

Kent Hughes said potential D2. That's top pairing potential. Yeah Michkov have unreal potential, but Reinbacher have all tools to become a top two-way pairing D. Not bad at all at 5.

Reinbacher at 5 is fine if Michkov wasn’t available

Passing on Michkov is an actual nightmare that I can’t wake up from

 

[Jersey Fan 12]

I don't know, man. I'm a bit more sceptical. You probably watched him much more than I did but the but I can promise you that what I saw wouldn't be enough to stay out of Torts doghouse for very long. Michkov's game with the puck is excellent but his positioning against the puck is gonna need a lot of work to get to NHL level. He likes to cheat and gamble in order to create offense and advantages for himself and his effort I'd describe as selective at best. Some of that can be accepted by certain coaches (see Kucherov in Tampa) but Torts isn't gonna have any of it. So at the very least some adjustments will have to be made to stay in the lineup.

Sounds like a fella named St. Louis. From.what I remember he and Tortorella won a Stanley Cup together and got along just fine.

 

[KevSkillz4]

Reinbacher at 5 is fine if Michkov wasn’t available

Passing on Michkov is an actual nightmare that I can’t wake up from

I agree with you. I'm very afraid what can Michkov do with Flyers. But I'm still very happy to have a D-man like Reinbacher with my Habs.

If Habs can draft Demidov this year, I think, that can help to forget the no-selection of Michkov.

 

[Schooner Guy]

Reinbacher at 5 is fine if Michkov wasn’t available

Passing on Michkov is an actual nightmare that I can’t wake up from

Michkov couldn't even make SKA...his parent KHL team. Flyers fans should be upset they took him instead of Ryan Leonard.