Rumor: Rumours & Proposals Thread | Previous Poll Punted, Pristine Prospect Procurement Poll Pinned

[Sheikyerbouti]

Where is the player headed?

I don't know, but we need to make it work lol


Don't know how, but we have to find a way, because that contract will limit us for many years and it's only going to get worse. Almost everything should be on the table imo.

The situation here with Nurse is so toxic that the players might support it. He's a good reclamation project, without the baggage too. You never know. I hope they are trying hard. In the big picture, other than drafting and development, Nurse's contract is probably Jackson's biggest issue to solve

 

[foshizzle]

Wow.

Skinner for the 7th overall pick? You take that all day but no way Skinner nets a high pick like that. So you convince yourself that Jack Campbell can be the guy because Skinner is wildly inconsistent but think someone would give a 7th overall pick for Skinner. Hummmm.

Campbell's last game was an AHL playoff game where he rocked a 5.17 GAA and .857 SV%. The guy is cooked. It's buy-out city for AHL Jack.

Now as for trading Nurse, it could be possible with the right, very limited situation like Utah who have cap space, a deep need for d, and a new market and team culture to form. Depends how teams view Nurse, whether his atrocious playoff, or the body of work, past three seasons of 32, 43, 35 points, double figure goals, big all situation toi ranging from 21:54 to 25:03 and still under age 30. Big body and excellent skating ability. Leadership on and off-ice with significant community involvement. Potential culture setter with his work ethic.

Would be Nurse's decision but if he was tired of the situation in Edmonton and team decision to offer him 'the contract.' Very limited market. A major distressed asset. But alot of tools and intangibles who could reset in a new environment. Rising cap mitigates somewhat the contract sticker price over time. Risk. For sure. Reward is pretty high too.

lol- you’ve gone to defending Skinner and calling him a good goalie to him being wildly inconsistent. Do you just like to argue?

If Campbell is cooked so is Skinner. 7th overall was/is the rumoured deal for Jakob Markstrom- and older goalie with a worse contract.

Campbell’s regular season numbers that you are crapping on is what Skinner posts in the playoffs. THE PlAYOFFS. If you’re cherry picking stats- How did Campbell’s numbers look his last NHL playoff game?

Trading Nurse is will require retention. Nurse is a third pair in Knob’s structure and has been deployed as such since March and much of the playoffs. You cannot retain on Nurse and buyout Campbell. That is too much dead cap space.

Either way, your assessment means nothing and so does mine. My belief is that Oilers need to optimize cap space if they want to win.

 

[Behind Enemy Lines]

lol- you’ve gone to defending Skinner and calling him a good goalie to him being wildly inconsistent. Do you just like to argue?

If Campbell is cooked so is Skinner. 7th overall was/is the rumoured deal for Jakob Markstrom- and older goalie with a worse contract.

Campbell’s regular season numbers that you are crapping on is what Skinner posts in the playoffs. THE PlAYOFFS. If you’re cherry picking stats- How did Campbell’s numbers look his last NHL playoff game?

Trading Nurse is will require retention. Nurse is a third pair in Knob’s structure and has been deployed as such since March and much of the playoffs. You cannot retain on Nurse and buyout Campbell. That is too much dead cap space.

Either way, your assessment means nothing and so does mine. My belief is that Oilers need to optimize cap space if they want to win.

Skinner is an average, non athletic goaltender who's been forced into a deep water situation as a #1 on a Cup winning window team because the big money guy failed disastrously within just over a season. Campbell was so bad he was sent on an in-season sabbatical which was essentially precedent setting. Skinner's kept his head above water. I don't have any pretension that he's an elite goaltender. He's the first Oilers drafted goalie in a decade to make this team. Quite amazing he's held up to the pressure of a Cup window team unless $25 million AHL Jack.

Markstrom is a Vezina Level goaltender with a substantive NHL body of work. Far from a second year goalie who's trying to build his NHL starter's game 2-3 years ahead of original schedule before the big money guy self imploded. Surely you can figure that much out.

Campbell is cooked. He couldn't win an AHL playoff game with worse numbers than the Oilers next prospect goaltender. A buy-out certainty.

Regarding Nurse, there might be a very narrow market for him. However he controls his own destiny with the no-trade.

 

[belair]

Then I wonder what they're looking for in a deal for Bouchard.

Personally keeping Nurse over Bouchard seems stupid, but here we are I guess.

More to this, might as well not do much of anything and just ride stuff out. Keep Campbell in the AHL, keep Kane and then see what you pick around the edges.

The $10m number being thrown around us a reasonable ballpark. You keep both, because again, Mattias Ekholm is soon to be 35. And again, finding top four Dmen is incredibly difficult and incredibly expensive looking at the team's history.

I see we're moving into silly season with the hyperbole though.

 

[Fourier]

lol- you’ve gone to defending Skinner and calling him a good goalie to him being wildly inconsistent. Do you just like to argue?

If Campbell is cooked so is Skinner. 7th overall was/is the rumoured deal for Jakob Markstrom- and older goalie with a worse contract.

Campbell’s regular season numbers that you are crapping on is what Skinner posts in the playoffs. THE PlAYOFFS. If you’re cherry picking stats- How did Campbell’s numbers look his last NHL playoff game?

Trading Nurse is will require retention. Nurse is a third pair in Knob’s structure and has been deployed as such since March and much of the playoffs. You cannot retain on Nurse and buyout Campbell. That is too much dead cap space.

Either way, your assessment means nothing and so does mine. My belief is that Oilers need to optimize cap space if they want to win.

You have commented on dead cap space quite a bit I believe. No one wants dead cap space but you can have "effective dead cap space" by keeping players on your roster that are not earning their money. The question is, is the gap between what they contribute and their salary greater than the dead space you generate. Right now it sure looks like buying out Campbell is a better use of cap space than keeping him around as an inconsistent $5M back-up or a guy giving you only AHL starts but costing you $3.85M on the cap unless you think there is a reasonable chance he can bounce back. Now even so is it possible that there are better solutions than a straight buyout? I think the answer is yes. For me I think they should explore trade with retention that sees another team buy out his deal.

As to Nurse, this is a much more complicated situation. If he was open to move, a trade with modest retention might well make sense if you could find a taker. For argument sake, let's say that Utah was interested in Nurse with $2M retained. If you can sign someone to replace him at $7.5M or less who will perform as well then why worry about the retained dead space?

 

[Jimmi McJenkins]

You have commented on dead cap space quite a bit I believe. No one wants dead cap space but you can have "effective dead cap space" by keeping players on your roster that are not earning their money. The question is, is the gap between what they contribute and their salary greater than the dead space you generate. Right now it sure looks like buying out Campbell is a better use of cap space than keeping him around as an inconsistent $5M back-up or a guy giving you only AHL starts but costing you $3.85M on the cap unless you think there is a reasonable chance he can bounce back. Now even so is it possible that there are better solutions than a straight buyout? I think the answer is yes. For me I think they should explore trade with retention that sees another team buy out his deal.

As to Nurse, this is a much more complicated situation. If he was open to move, a trade with modest retention might well make sense if you could find a taker. For argument sake, let's say that Utah was interested in Nurse with $2M retained. If you can sign someone to replace him at $7.5M or less who will perform as well then why worry about the retained dead space?

I largely agree but you also buyout Campbell because you don't want him in the organization at all anymore

 

[CycloneSweep]

And ten million Bouchard

He said 40 mill for three players

Good luck building a cup team. Nurse has to be gone. Campbell. Ceci. Gm would have to find many contributing value contracts. Skinner ain't it either

It’s a double edge sword. We can’t let them go but we won’t be able to afford a competitive roster with them at that cap either.

 

[Fishy McScales]

I largely agree but you also buyout Campbell because you don't want him in the organization at all anymore

Unless he's a cancer, which by all accounts he isn't, I don't see why.

 

[AlbOilFAN]

I would try to trade Nurse for Parayko, probably add 1 rounder to nurse.
Next year
Elk Bouch
Bro Parayko
Kulak Vini
I don’t know it’ll be enough for St. Louis to do it though.

 

[Jimmi McJenkins]

Unless he's a cancer, which by all accounts he isn't, I don't see why.

He's literally a problem though. He's the sore thumb that sticks out on the cap, he's the guy you won't even bother to invite to camp, but then everyone has to answer questions about. He's the guy that dipshit fans and media will bring up because "he's playing well" in Bako, also stealing starts from your prospects and if you do want to ship him somewhere else in the AHL you have to go through that nonsense as well.

The organization being DONE with a player means they don't want him him, you buyout Campbell.

 

[Fishy McScales]

He's literally a problem though. He's the sore thumb that sticks out on the cap, he's the guy you won't even bother to invite to camp, but then everyone has to answer questions about. He's the guy that dipshit fans and media will bring up because "he's playing well" in Bako, also stealing starts from your prospects and if you do want to ship him somewhere else in the AHL you have to go through that nonsense as well.

The organization being DONE with a player means they don't want him him, you buyout Campbell.

But sticking out on the cap is purely a money thing, which is what was being discussed.

The rest of it has pretty minimal implications compared to the money issue. I don't think Connor cares that he has to answer a couple of questions about Campbell during the year.

 

[Ritchie Valens]

You give those two whatever they want then figure out the rest.

That’s working out well for Toronto.

Cap will be over 100
Hopefully another team hires you to whisper that in their gms ear

Good, then taking less means bringing in a higher end supporting cast.

 

[McDrai]

Nurse and Ceci have to go this offseason if we want any chance in hell of returning to the finals again. We also need to bring in a #1 goalie as Skinner isn’t consistent enough to be the go-to guy.

 

[foshizzle]

Skinner is an average, non athletic goaltender who's been forced into a deep water situation as a #1 on a Cup winning window team because the big money guy failed disastrously within just over a season. Campbell was so bad he was sent on an in-season sabbatical which was essentially precedent setting. Skinner's kept his head above water. I don't have any pretension that he's an elite goaltender. He's the first Oilers drafted goalie in a decade to make this team. Quite amazing he's held up to the pressure of a Cup window team unless $25 million AHL Jack.

Markstrom is a Vezina Level goaltender with a substantive NHL body of work. Far from a second year goalie who's trying to build his NHL starter's game 2-3 years ahead of original schedule before the big money guy self imploded. Surely you can figure that much out.

Campbell is cooked. He couldn't win an AHL playoff game with worse numbers than the Oilers next prospect goaltender. A buy-out certainty.

Regarding Nurse, there might be a very narrow market for him. However he controls his own destiny with the no-trade.

Campbell’s numbers were better than Skinner’s when he was sent down. So Campbell is out and is so bad and had to be sent in an in-season sabbatical, and yet his regular season with the Oilers produced better numbers than playoff Skinner. Skinner has a mid playoff sabbatical. If Campbell is Cooke, so is Skinner.

Markstrom was a goalie who won a vezina once. In reality, he is an average aging goalie who is often injured. Skinner is a younger goalie, with a cheaper cap hit, surely you can figure that out.

 

[belair]

Nurse and Ceci have to go this offseason if we want any chance in hell of returning to the finals again. We also need to bring in a #1 goalie as Skinner isn’t consistent enough to be the go-to guy.

If we want to go to the Finals again, you'd hope that next time McDavid scored at something more than a 20 goal pace. It's been an odd run where a number of significant contributing players haven't been on their best game.

Nurse is better than he's been in these playoffs and year over year shows he's a top end defenseman in terms of production at even strength. His contract and the cost of getting someone to take it all but guarantees he's not going anywhere.

 

[foshizzle]

You have commented on dead cap space quite a bit I believe. No one wants dead cap space but you can have "effective dead cap space" by keeping players on your roster that are not earning their money. The question is, is the gap between what they contribute and their salary greater than the dead space you generate. Right now it sure looks like buying out Campbell is a better use of cap space than keeping him around as an inconsistent $5M back-up or a guy giving you only AHL starts but costing you $3.85M on the cap unless you think there is a reasonable chance he can bounce back. Now even so is it possible that there are better solutions than a straight buyout? I think the answer is yes. For me I think they should explore trade with retention that sees another team buy out his deal.

As to Nurse, this is a much more complicated situation. If he was open to move, a trade with modest retention might well make sense if you could find a taker. For argument sake, let's say that Utah was interested in Nurse with $2M retained. If you can sign someone to replace him at $7.5M or less who will perform as well then why worry about the retained dead space?

There is nice such thing as effective dead cap space. It’s a term you literally made up and a false theory that, again, you just made up. Cup winning teams don’t have dead cap space. Florida doesn’t, Colorado didn’t, Tampa didn’t. You literally have to max out payroll.

Like I’ve said many times. What Skinner has been throughout his playoff career is what Campbell was his one year here in the regular season. Campbell is a superior playoff goalie.

You worry about retained cap because it’s money you can’t use to build out your roster. Let’s use your example, you retain 2M on Nurse. You add one Neal’s buyout of 1.9M and add on Campbell. Your dead cap is now 2M+1.9M+1.3M (at Campbell’s lowest or 2.6 at his highest). That’s 5.3M to 6.6M. You know the quality of players you can get with 6.6M in cap space accruing at the deadline? Forget the deadline, at the beginning of the year. How would the oilers look now with say Guentzal, Henrique, Carrick, a top d man, and probably another top 6 at the deadline. You can’t throw money away. Not when games are this tight and teams are this close.

 

[cruisecity]

You have to look at moving away from all of the players who simply can not hang in the playoffs. We've had more than enough time to identify these players.

Nurse
Ceci
Desharnais
Skinner
McLeod
Ryan
Perry

I originally thought Desharnais was playing well by the eye test, it's true he is showing more confidence. What it misses is his horrific +/-, all of his advanced stats being in the gutter, and his periodic defensive lapses with most of the other D.

I would keep Foegele if he was at an incredibly low cap hit. Not likely given his regular season, someone will get duped. Henrique as well can come back at an incredibly low cap hit. These are guys meant to be playing strict bottom 6 minutes and nothing more.

 

[Behind Enemy Lines]

Campbell’s numbers were better than Skinner’s when he was sent down. So Campbell is out and is so bad and had to be sent in an in-season sabbatical, and yet his regular season with the Oilers produced better numbers than playoff Skinner. Skinner has a mid playoff sabbatical. If Campbell is Cooke, so is Skinner.

Markstrom was a goalie who won a vezina once. In reality, he is an average aging goalie who is often injured. Skinner is a younger goalie, with a cheaper cap hit, surely you can figure that out.

Jack Campbell's last game well over a month ago was a 5.17 GAA and .857 SV% AHL playoff game. When the team was on the brink, they made a bet on a 25 year goaltender with future over a 32 year old goaltender who melted under pressure of his contract and white hot situation of a team expecting to win. The team results since and playing in June for a Cup validate the decision. Campbell well see his AHL playoff numbers above. Skinner has had wobbles and came back strong after a two game reset. He's inconsistent and that's a challenge of having a young, developing goaltender after the big money one failed spectacularly.

Now it's stunning to think you feel Skinner and Markstrom are equitable trade assets for a team like Jersey. For a team like Jersey Markstrom is a high-end, proven big, athletic goaltender who has shown sustained levels of elite level play. Doubt they give up the 9th pick for him but salary retention is the issue. He's a high level goaltender with a long NHL career of success. A better bet comparatively than the one Edmonton made on Campbell (Markstrom 485 regular season NHL games. Campbell with 176 at age 32). The league view of Markstrom is substantively differently than your perception.

This is really pretty Simple Simon stuff. Staring into oblivion the Oilers bet on youth and future potential over an established over a 32 goalie with a limited NHL games played who melted down in both seasons being counted on as a hopeful Cup window team's #1.

EDIT: The organization and quite possibly the team had no faith in a Skinner Campbell tandem and this bares out with team results with Skinner and Pickard who stepped up to give them the veteran presence and performance expected from the $25 million invested in Campbell.

 

[cruisecity]

Jack Campbell's last game well over a month ago was a 5.17 GAA and .857 SV% AHL playoff game. When the team was on the brink, they made a bet on a 25 year goaltender with future over a 32 year old goaltender who melted under pressure of his contract and white hot situation of a team expecting to win. The team results since and playing in June for a Cup validate the decision. Campbell well see his AHL playoff numbers above. Skinner has had wobbles and came back strong after a two game reset. He's inconsistent and that's a challenge of having a young, developing goaltender after the big money one failed spectacularly.

Now it's stunning to think you feel Skinner and Markstrom are equitable trade assets for a team like Jersey. For a team like Jersey Markstrom is a high-end, proven big, athletic goaltender who has shown sustained levels of elite level play. Doubt they give up the 9th pick for him but salary retention is the issue. He's a high level goaltender with a long NHL career of success. A better bet comparatively than the one Edmonton made on Campbell (Markstrom 485 regular season NHL games. Campbell with 176 at age 32). The league view of Markstrom is substantively differently than your perception.

This is really pretty Simple Simon stuff. Staring into oblivion the Oilers bet on youth and future potential over an established over a 32 goalie with a limited NHL games played who melted down in both seasons being counted on as a hopeful Cup window team's #1.

If both options are shit you take the cheaper one with more perceived potential. Fact of the matter is we've seen what elite goaltending does for your club in most of our playoff runs.

Gibson
Hellebucyk
Hill
Bobrovsky

Even if we're going even against some clubs, the goalies make the difference. Our two eliminations to Chicago and Colorado were getting outplayed and evenly goaltended.

 

[Behind Enemy Lines]

If both options are shit you take the cheaper one with more perceived potential. Fact of the matter is we've seen what elite goaltending does for your club in most of our playoff runs.

Gibson
Hellebucyk
Hill
Bobrovsky

Even if we're going even against some clubs, the goalies make the difference. Our two eliminations to Chicago and Colorado were getting outplayed and evenly goaltended.

Goaltending matters and magnifies more in the playoffs. Elite goaltenders are very rare and a precious commodity.

If one's team has a quality #1 and Skinner type developing over 2-3 years as an NHL back-up that's an optimal situation seen often with good organizations that value goaltending. Conversely the Oilers 'strategy' has been to bet on old, established and often flawed goaltenders and all while spending volume of marginal draft collateral hoping to find an NHL future goaltender with a needle in a haystack approach. A decade of wasted picks before Skinner actually beat the odds to succeed. Skinner as #1 is an organization fail not the player who has stepped into the mess of a horrible $25 million decision through this team's winning window. He's the guy now having to figure it out on the fly.

 

[cruisecity]

Goaltending matters and magnifies more in the playoffs. Elite goaltenders are very rare and a precious commodity.

If one's team has a quality #1 and Skinner type developing over 2-3 years as an NHL back-up that's an optimal situation seen often with good organizations that value goaltending. Conversely the Oilers 'strategy' has been to bet on old, established and often flawed goaltenders and all while spending volume of marginal draft collateral hoping to find an NHL future goaltender with a needle in a haystack approach. A decade of wasted picks before Skinner actually beat the odds to succeed. Skinner as #1 is an organization fail not the player who has stepped into the mess of a horrible $25 million decision through this team's winning window. He's the guy now having to figure it out on the fly.

I don't blame him at all, but you aren't winning a Cup with him unless the team defence is incredible.

Drafting players who are cheating their genetics with positional play despite never being capable of going to extra mile with acrobatic saves seems like a bad idea. We've essentially seen the extremes of both ends of personalities with Smith being a genetically talented goalie, chaotic and loud. On the other end is Skinner's fake stoicism, incapability to move in the net, but overall sound positioning. He essentially schemes his way into an NHL goaltending position despite having no Great physical traits. He's not a goaltender in the way other sports goaltenders or hockey's should be. Kind of like the theory of putting a sumo wrestler in net. Well, they aren't a goalie but they can save some pucks if you show them where to stand. He has no instinct.

 

[FlameChampion]

Problem with Skinner is that you can’t really rely on him to be a starter. He’s young so maybe he improves. But he’s already lacking mobility so hard to say how much he will improve. He might or he might not. But if he’s not a starter, than paying him 2.6m while isn’t crazy bad, its not great value either.

The Nurse and Campbell contracts will continue to plague this team though. And I think Kane will as well. As valuable as he is when hes on, the age/injuries aren’t likely to be better moving forward. Ceci sucks but at least hes on his last year.

 

[Wretched Oil]

He literally spent this year on the 2nd pairing though?

And we made it to the cup final with him?

 

[Behind Enemy Lines]

I don't blame him at all, but you aren't winning a Cup with him unless the team defence is incredible.

Drafting players who are cheating their genetics with positional play despite never being capable of going to extra mile with acrobatic saves seems like a bad idea. We've essentially seen the extremes of both ends of personalities with Smith being a genetically talented goalie, chaotic and loud. On the other end is Skinner's fake stoicism, incapability to move in the net, but overall sound positioning. He essentially schemes his way into an NHL goaltending position despite having no Great physical traits. He's not a goaltender in the way other sports goaltenders or hockey's should be. Kind of like the theory of putting a sumo wrestler in net. Well, they aren't a goalie but they can save some pucks if you show them where to stand. He has no instinct.

Yup. This Final was going to be about the margin of difference between Bob and Skinner. But also the team defending support and mitigating mistakes in front of Skinner. I don't know anyone saw the Oil PP and top 6 being absolutely shutdown.

The modern era goaltender 'type' is an athletic freak. Ideal body type imo is like an Olympic swimmer tall, lean and inherently athletic. Ian Clark has an equal weighting 7 criteria for identifying elite goaltending with athleticism a critical attribute and technique as something that is teachable. It's easy for us all to pile on Skinner for what he isn't. But he should be slow cooking as an NHL back-up growing all components of his game. Not treading water building his NHL game as a starter during peak window years.

All elements of his game are in development phase requiring experience and continual refinement over time. It comes out with some of the things you describe. However one area I will give him huge credit for is mental strength and resiliency. This critical attribute crushed the expensive veteran guy they paid $25 million as a finishing piece to a Cup window team. I don't like Skinner's interviews and avoid them but I think it's likely a mental tactic to focus on positives instead of self-destructive behaviour (which we notably saw too much from Campbell).

 

[CycloneSweep]

And we made it to the cup final with him?

We made it to the cup final in spite of him, not because of him. He is putting up one of the worst cup runs ever for a defender.