Rumor: Rumors & Proposals Thread | The Road to the Draft June 28th and 29th

[Soundwave]

Again, lets see how things went with Bouchard on the ice vs AP.

CF 60 CA 31
SCF 32 SCA
HDCF 11 HDCA 8

I am not going to argue that Bouchard did not make mistakes, but you can't argue that AP played well and then downplay Bouchard because of mistakes. AP had some scary moments throughout that you seem to not be aware of. In fact, there was even light talk that his suspension might be a bonus for the knights.

Bottomline is all defensemen make mistakes. When those happen to your team and goals get scored they are much more memorable than they would be if your team scores. It's hard to argue that the main difference in the series was not goaltending.

Bottom line actually is the Oilers made a lot more mistakes in the defensive zone than Vegas did. Vegas did not make a lot of mistakes in part because their defenders are simply better defensively. The one "easy goal" McDavid got 5 on 5 all series long was a shot from still way out of a high danger zone and it came in game 6, other than that, not many easy goals for us. Draisaitl got that easy one off Broissoit's back early in game 1, but between that to start the series and McDavid's one late in the series, not a lot of easy goals for us.

The only two Oiler D that I would say get a decent grade for that series defensively are Kulak and Ekholm. The rest of them were not good.

If Nurse wants to be paid 9.25 million, he might want to realize he can't be getting outplayed by the other team's no.4/5 defenceman when we are in the playoffs and not playing LA or Calgary. Zack Whitecloud was better than Nurse in that series. That's not going to work for us.

 

[FlameChampion]

Sounds like Janmark and Bjugstad are leaving

Interesting.

If they leave it wouldnt really surprise me. I'd like to see both guys return if the contract are reasonable.

I still think the Oilers did Janmark dirty starting in the AHL.

Bjugstad probably going to make too much.

 

[Ritchie Valens]

Don't argue with Soundwave. You won't get anywhere. If he didn't want to believe in water being wet he'd find a way to do it. No point in trying to give him evidence

Water in itself isn't wet. It's a liquid which causes whatever it comes into contact with to then become wet.

(Just busting your chops-lol)

 

[Broberg Speed]

we should have beat Vegas and Colorado too...

every year we get destroyed by a superior team and every year the excuses and copes come out in the crazy zone

 

[Beerfish]

If our goalie actually stops the puck when he should we once again are not berating our defense and dzone coverage. Our defense was not terrible vs vegas our goaltending was.

 

[Broberg Speed]

If our goalie actually stops the puck when he should we once again are not berating our defense and dzone coverage. Our defense was not terrible vs vegas our goaltending was.

Not saying Skinner was good but look at the numbers of Hellebuyck, Oettinger and Bobrovsky against Vegas.

Campbell did better than any of them. And I'm not saying Campbell is the answer.

Our defense wasn't good.

 

[Beerfish]

Not saying Skinner was good but look at the numbers of Hellebuyck, Oettinger and Bobrovsky against Vegas.

Campbell did better than any of them. And I'm not saying Campbell is the answer.

Our coach was so bent on loyalty at the wrong time made it so we will never know if campbell would have made a difference. Woodcroft should be blamed 50% and skinner 50% for the loss imo.

The playoffs when in win now mode are no time for loyalty or development of players.

Not sure how the team can go forward with Campbell due to the fact the coach 100% does not believe in him.

 

[McDoused]

If our goalie actually stops the puck when he should we once again are not berating our defense and dzone coverage. Our defense was not terrible vs vegas our goaltending was.

Agreed. Could our defence have been better? 100%. At some point you have to give Vegas credit as they are a good team. Their will be some breakdowns in the defensive zone and times you need your goaltender to make the big save. Hill was doing that for Vegas while Skinner wasn't.

Whenever we make a mistake its in the back of our net while. I think we tend to blame ourselves and "shoot ourselves in the foot" defensively rather than give Vegas credit. Its frustrating when you see McDavid and Draisaitl get robbed on a boatload of high-quality scoring chances only to let in a softie the other way.

Great goaltending is like great sex in a relationship. It hides all the warts and problems that all couples have.

 

[Fourier]

Bottom line actually is the Oilers made a lot more mistakes in the defensive zone than Vegas did. Vegas did not make a lot of mistakes in part because their defenders are simply better defensively. The one "easy goal" McDavid got 5 on 5 all series long was a shot from still way out of a high danger zone and it came in game 6, other than that, not many easy goals for us. Draisaitl got that easy one off Broissoit's back early in game 1, but between that to start the series and McDavid's one late in the series, not a lot of easy goals for us.

The only two Oiler D that I would say get a decent grade for that series defensively are Kulak and Ekholm. The rest of them were not good.

If Nurse wants to be paid 9.25 million, he might want to realize he can't be getting outplayed by the other team's no.4/5 defenceman when we are in the playoffs and not playing LA or Calgary. Zack Whitecloud was better than Nurse in that series. That's not going to work for us.

You can't really isolate Nurse vs Whitecloud since their roles are so different. Whitecloud. I'd also argue that a lot of the issues with Nurse come form the play of Ceci these playoffs. Whitecloud for example also had big problems when playing vs McDavid The Oilers got killed whenever Ceci and Nurse were together but as I have previous posted the results were different with Nurse and any other partner.

Line Stats - Natural Stat Trick

Line Stats - Natural Stat Trick

I am not excusing Nurse. He made mistakes that a guy who is suppose to be the teams best defender should not make. That has certainly been an issue. My problem is your claim that somehow every Vegas defender was immune to the same sorts of things. In fact, this was not the case. The Oilers had a lot of great chances, but Hill was far better in those circumstances than Skinner.

The Oilers can and should play better. They should also try to improve the roster. But the reality is that the series with Vegas could have easily gone the other way with these rosters.

 

[Soundwave]

You have to be able to win some playoff rounds against legit good teams without having the greatest offensive series. You're going to run into a hot goalie sometimes.

I'm pretty sure Pittsburgh has won several playoff rounds in the Crosby/Malkin era where things weren't going so great for Sid or Geno or their wingers weren't finishing or whatever.

Having deficiencies in defence, goaltending, and defensive coaching are really killers for playoff hockey because those aspects are key to "winning ugly" which you have to be able to do.

There are going to be series' where not everything from Connor/Leon (and their setups) goes in the net. Or the other team's goalie is better than ours. In that case, it becomes a contest of who can minimize mistakes, and right now we're just not a very mature team at doing that.

 

[bobbythebrain]

Aiden Hill, likely the worst goalie in history is gonna win a cup, and people are hyper focused on goaltending as the answer still.

The #1 key to winning for this team is upgrading Ceci. #2 is finding a 2nd line winger who can chip in.

 

[Soundwave]

Aiden Hill, likely the worst goalie in history is gonna win a cup, and people are hyper focused on goaltending as the answer still.

The #1 key to winning for this team is upgrading Ceci. #2 is finding a 2nd line winger who can chip in.

None of Aiden Hill, Stuart Skinner, Laurent Broissoit, or frankly even Jack Campbell have proven shit in this league. None of them have earned the right to call themselves a defacto no.1 goalie in this league.

You can throw the disrespect at Hill all you want, but what have Skinner or Campbell done in the NHL to be thought of as reliable big ticket starters? Nothing. Neither has much of a track record, it's not beyond the scope of a possibility that Hill is just better than the other guys in Vegas-Edmonton series.

Bottom line is when push came to shove in the series, Aiden Hill made the big saves, Skinner didn't, and Campbell couldn't even get into net because the coach was shit terrified he'd crap the bed because that's all he's been doing in the NHL for a long while, even going back to before he was signed in Edmonton (really bad in the back half of his only "starter" season in Toronto).

And even if the premise is Aiden Hill is a fluke, that doesn't mean the hockey gods are going to feel obliged to give the Oilers a fluke goaltending run. Nobody is "owed" anything like that, if it happens, great, but you can't be banking on that as something that must happen for your team because it's unfair that it happened one time for another team. It doesn't work like that.

 

[McShogun99]

we should have beat Vegas and Colorado too...

every year we get destroyed by a superior team and every year the excuses and copes come out in the crazy zone

Colorado was by far the superior team. Vegas was just hungrier, worked harder and didn't have Nurse-Ceci giving up 2+ free goals a game with their shit defending.

Not saying Skinner was good but look at the numbers of Hellebuyck, Oettinger and Bobrovsky against Vegas.

Campbell did better than any of them. And I'm not saying Campbell is the answer.

Our defense wasn't good.

Skinner didn't let in bad goals but he never made the big save when our defence left him hanging. How many goals did Vegas score with 1-2 players behind our defence. That should never happen in a playoff game.

 

[McShogun99]

Our coach was so bent on loyalty at the wrong time made it so we will never know if campbell would have made a difference. Woodcroft should be blamed 50% and skinner 50% for the loss imo.

The playoffs when in win now mode are no time for loyalty or development of players.

Not sure how the team can go forward with Campbell due to the fact the coach 100% does not believe in him.

It was like last season against Colorado. Everyone could see that Smith was slowing down and Koskinen has historically did well against the Avs but he never gave Koskinen that chance. We still wouldn't have won but maybe we steal a game or 2 with a fresh Koskinen in net.

 

[Soundwave]

Colorado was by far the superior team. Vegas was just hungrier, worked harder and didn't have Nurse-Ceci giving up 2+ free goals a game with their shit defending.


Skinner didn't let in bad goals but he never made the big save when our defence left him hanging. How many goals did Vegas score with 1-2 players behind our defence. That should never happen in a playoff game.

Skinner did let in a few stinkers (the 4th goal he let in during game 6, just an nothing shot from the point, was a back breaker for the team), and yes on top of that, he really didn't make any big saves.

There really wasn't too many, if even any games in the regular season where you just left the game thinking "wow, the team just didn't have it today, but Skinner saved their ass tonight".

I just don't know if this guy showed a lot of why he is a "big time" goalie. He's fairly fundamentally sound and usually square to the puck, but I don't really get a sense he's a guy who can make ridiculous, game saving stops, he's just sorta there and if the team plays well they'll win.

 

[K1984]

None of Aiden Hill, Stuart Skinner, Laurent Broissoit, or frankly even Jack Campbell have proven shit in this league. None of them have earned the right to call themselves a defacto no.1 goalie in this league.

You can throw the disrespect at Hill all you want, but what have Skinner or Campbell done in the NHL to be thought of as reliable big ticket starters? Nothing. Neither has much of a track record, it's not beyond the scope of a possibility that Hill is just better than the other guys in Vegas-Edmonton series.

Bottom line is when push came to shove in the series, Aiden Hill made the big saves, Skinner didn't, and Campbell couldn't even get into net because the coach was shit terrified he'd crap the bed because that's all he's been doing in the NHL for a long while, even going back to before he was signed in Edmonton (really bad in the back half of his only "starter" season in Toronto).

And even if the premise is Aiden Hill is a fluke, that doesn't mean the hockey gods are going to feel obliged to give the Oilers a fluke goaltending run. If that is the case, then it's a fairly rare occurrence.

I see no point in hand wringing over goaltending because there is no clear answer here. The only thing we can control is improving the defensive play of the team and probably changing some personnel.

Coming in to the year would you have expected that Jack Campbell would be the worst goalie in the NHL through the regular season, Aidin Hill was going to lead his team to a cup, Bobrovsky was going to be a joke through the regular season only to go supernova in the playoffs, Markstrom was going to be among the worst in the NHL, Oettinger was going to have a shit playoff, Vasilevsky was going to be shit in the playoffs, Skinner was going to post a .915 in the regular season, etc, etc, etc. The Golden Knights themselves didn't even know Hill had this in him until they were forced to play him due to injury two weeks ago.

Whatever we do to upgrade on paper in this position is pointless. A team commitment to better puck management and upgrading defense are both things that are completely under our control and more likely to produce dividends then getting a goalie and hoping this one actually works.

 

[GhostfaceWu]

Pietrangelo and Theodore had solid series and solid playoffs overall ... can you say the same for Darnell Nurse? He got outplayed by Vegas' no.4 or 5 D in Whitecloud straight up. Forget comparing to Pietrangelo and Theodore, dude could not even play up to the level of their no.4/5 guy.

Maybe, just maybe part of the reason "Vegas' goalie suddenly turned into Hasek!" is because their D are simply a good deal better.

Bouchard had great PP numbers, but that's really the last area of need for the Oilers. Defensively he wasn't great either in the playoffs, if we're just going to look at his defensive play, right now it's not good enough either.

For the 2nd year in a row, Brett Kulak might have been the Oilers best D when they went up against a team that was better than Calgary/LA. Ekholm was OK. But Nurse, Ceci, Bouchard, Desharnais, Broberg, ranged somewhere between mediocre and the just "plain terrible" in that series in terms of actual defensive zone play, and that's not good enough.

You want to win a Cup, your D corps cannot perform that badly in their own zone.

Pietrangelo and Theodore are both no.1 D, now are they both Norris-caliber superstar no.1 D? No, they're not that level, but Vegas having two guys better than our best guy and our highest paid guy getting outplayed by a guy making 1/3 of his salary are significant factors in us losing that series.

Yeah let's pretend hill is just making long wrist shot saves instead of reality where hes making 10 bell saves every game. Pietro and Theodore both played their worst series of the playoffs against us.

 

[Soundwave]

I see no point in hand wringing over goaltending because there is no clear answer here. The only thing we can control is improving the defensive play of the team and probably changing some personnel.

Coming in to the year would you have expected that Jack Campbell would be the worst goalie in the NHL through the regular season, Aidin Hill was going to lead his team to a cup, Bobrovsky was going to be a joke through the regular season only to go supernova in the playoffs, Markstrom was going to be among the worst in the NHL, Vasilevsky was going to be shit in the playoffs, Skinner was going to post a .915 in the regular season, etc, etc, etc. The Golden Knights themselves didn't even know Hill had this in him until they were forced to play him due to injury two weeks ago.

Whatever we do to upgrade on paper in this position is pointless. A team commitment to better puck management and upgrading defense are both things that are completely under our control and more likely to produce dividends then getting a goalie and hoping this one actually works.

I mean well specific to Jack Campbell it's not him falling apart here was some unbelievable thing that no one could have forseen. His collapse in the 2nd half of the only season he had prior to this as a starter in Toronto was fairly well documented.

So that aspect really isn't that mind boggling.

What is moreso is how this guy got a 5 x 5 million contract from the Oilers with no real track record of being a consistent starter or winning a single playoff round.

Ilya Samsonov this year just basically put up better stats than what Campbell did behind the same Leafs team (.919 for Samsonov versus .914 for Campbell, both .898 in the playoffs) ... does anyone think Ilya Samsonov is getting a 5 x 5 deal anywhere? *crickets*.

The Oilers can't just sit there and shrug and say "well nothing we can do" ... if Campbell was a bad signing, then they have to ask themselves how many years left on McDavid/Draisaitl's current deal are they willing to throw down the toilet, because it can be argued this year was (as per Draisaitl's own words) a "waste" and a large part of the reason we lost to Vegas, probably even the central reason is goaltending. So that's 1 year now thrown away, are the Oilers willing to throw away 2? 3? Because they're embarrassed they signed a potential dud of a goalie and are now banking on a young 2.6 million goalie who may not have "it" either? Is that really the plan?

 

[guymez]

I don't think its a theory. The Oilers got goalied in the Vegas series. Hill has a 0.934 sv% in the series against us while Skinner had a 0.875 sv%. You can say that Vegas has the superior defensive system but then how come Laurent Broissoit looked human in his games with a 0.841 sv %?

The truth is if you swapped Hill and Skinner we would have won the series.

Skinner faced 152 shots and let in 19 GA in the series. If he had Hill's numbers he would have only let in 10 goals against. Conversely Hill faced 136 shots and let in 9 GA. If he had Skinners sv% he would have let in 17 goals against.

Having said all that, its not just on the goaltender. Edmonton as whole was exposed defensively that series. I don't think its a Personnel issue. I think it's more about adjusting our game to collapse in front of the goaltender and play desperate hockey instead of the man-to-man defense. I think Woodcroft's system was exposed in playoff hockey and a full season with the correct style and execution in play would go a long way to giving the goaltender more confidence and removing those second chance opportunities.

Completely agree with the bolded.
I am a little perplexed why Woodcroft thought that man to man was a Championship winning strategy in the first place.

 

[AddyTheWrath]

 

[Ninety7]

Hilarious that we need to find another elite D man to babysit our supposed 9.25m #1.

I’m down for Konecny. Think he’s what we need. Broberg can go the other way.

 

[Soundwave]

There would have to be some salary going out somewhere, I guess Yamamoto or Foegele + Broberg + pick for Konecny retained?

 

[K1984]

I mean well specific to Jack Campbell it's not him falling apart here was some unbelievable thing that no one could have forseen. His collapse in the 2nd half of the only season he had prior to this as a starter in Toronto was fairly well documented.

So that aspect really isn't that mind boggling.

What is moreso is how this guy got a 5 x 5 million contract from the Oilers with no real track record of being a consistent starter or winning a single playoff round.

Ilya Samsonov this year just basically put up better stats than what Campbell did behind the same Leafs team (.919 for Samsonov versus .914 for Campbell, both .898 in the playoffs) ... does anyone think Ilya Samsonov is getting a 5 x 5 deal anywhere? *crickets*.

The Oilers can't just sit there and shrug and say "well nothing we can do" ... if Campbell was a bad signing, then they have to ask themselves how many years left on McDavid/Draisaitl's current deal are they willing to throw down the toilet, because it can be argued this year was (as per Draisaitl's own words) a "waste" and a large part of the reason we lost to Vegas, probably even the central reason is goaltending. So that's 1 year now thrown away, are the Oilers willing to throw away 2? 3? Because they're embarrassed they signed a potential dud of a goalie and are now banking on a young 2.6 million goalie who may not have "it" either? Is that really the plan?

How would you have received acquiring Samsonov to play with Skinner instead of Campbell at this time last year? How would any of the other numerous examples of unexpected performance of the goalies have been perceived?

Point is you can use hindsight all you want to pontificate about how stupid the Oilers are, but currently there is nearly no way to know what you're going to get from 95% of the goalies in the league. We have limited assets to spend in both prospects/picks and cap space. Spanking it all on a goalie that will almost certainly be a massive gamble no matter who is brought in is the thing that could blow up winning a cup, not the other way around.

 

[McShogun99]

Skinner did let in a few stinkers (the 4th goal he let in during game 6, just an nothing shot from the point, was a back breaker for the team), and yes on top of that, he really didn't make any big saves.

There really wasn't too many, if even any games in the regular season where you just left the game thinking "wow, the team just didn't have it today, but Skinner saved their ass tonight".

I just don't know if this guy showed a lot of why he is a "big time" goalie. He's fairly fundamentally sound and usually square to the puck, but I don't really get a sense he's a guy who can make ridiculous, game saving stops, he's just sorta there and if the team plays well they'll win.

That's what I get from him. Skinner let in a lot of stinkers but he made numerous miracle saves as well. To me he seems like he has that big game mentality because despite how bad his stats were he seemed to make the big saves when the game was on the line.

 

[Soundwave]

How would you have received acquiring Samsonov to play with Skinner instead of Campbell at this time last year?

Point is you can use hindsight all you want to pontificate about how stupid the Oilers are, but currently there is nearly no way to know what you're going to get from 95% of the goalies in the league. We have limited assets to spend in both prospects/picks and cap space. Spanking it all on a goalie that will almost certainly be a massive gamble no matter who is brought in is the thing that could blow up winning a cup, not the other way around.

I was deep down leery of it, but I wanted to give Campbell a chance and hope for the best. Maybe his crap play in Toronto in the 2nd half of the year was injury related, but I think the whole thing about the Leafs just sending him home to get his head together and Dubas not willing to give him the big contract said a lot about them seeing a side of Campbell they felt they could not trust, and that should have worried us.

Looking at it now though, I don't understand that 5 x 5 contract. Who gets 5 x 5 with only one season as a starter and it wasn't even that good (.914 regular season with terrible play in the 2nd half of the year followed up by a mediocre .898 in the playoffs and a 1st round exit)?

Like 5x3 I could understand, but 5 x 5? What the f***. Who were we even bidding against?

There are points in every team's build where a manager just has to get a move right. Holland needed to get that right. He gets paid a lot of money to get that right. And right now, it doesn't look good at all.