Rumor: Rumors & Proposals Thread | Lavoie, Pederson, & Gleason clear waivers

[TheNumber4]

the bone was taking Yams to get Kostin. We could not buy out Yams.

No we couldn’t. But it was only 500k x 2 to buy out Yams. Yams still found a job at 1.5M. Watching how this trade went down on the Drop, I really wonder if Holland had properly shopped Yams or Kostin. He seemed dead set on dealing with Yzerman.

 

[Tobias Kahun]

No we couldn’t. But it was only 500k x 2 to buy out Yams. Yams still found a job at 1.5M. Watching how this trade went down on the Drop, I really wonder if Holland had properly shopped Yams or Kostin. He seemed dead set on dealing with Yzerman.

No one was taking yams

 

[Jimmi McJenkins]

No one was taking yams

I don't know, but I think that deal, Kostin and Yamo to Detroit was the simplest and quickest for the team. Makes sense to me if it's just a matter of opening cap space.

 

[TheNumber4]

No one was taking yams

Maybe but Seattle signing him shows he had some value. His draft position and established production in the League should give him some value. Kostin for sure had some value. I don’t think Holland got the best deal possible for the players.

 

[TheNumber4]

I don't know, but I think that deal, Kostin and Yamo to Detroit was the simplest and quickest for the team. Makes sense to me if it's just a matter of opening cap space.

Simple and quick seems exactly why Holland went and made the deal. Convenience is really bad reason to make deals though, if your goal is to extract the best value.

 

[joestevens29]

Lol how was the Yamo deal quick? The guy was literally talked about for months and didn't get traded until the 29th of June. Two days before it was essential to have him gone.

 

[Jimmi McJenkins]

Simple and quick seems exactly why Holland went and made the deal. Convenience is really bad reason to make deals though, if your goal is to extract the best value.

The value was the cap space.

 

[TopShelfGloveSide]

edit nvm

 

[TheNumber4]

The value was the cap space.

That's why the trade was done, and there's value in cap space but it still doesn't make it a good trade value wise. But I guess that will come down to how you evaluate the players.

Put it to you this way:

How much do you think Kostin @ 2M is worth on the market? With his good showing for the Oilers in the regular season and playoffs, his 1st round draft pedigree, his rareness as a player type with this size and speed and willingness to fight, I think he's worth atleast a 2nd round pick, probably more.

How much do you think Yam's buyout is worth at 500k x 2? Well it cost New York only a 2026 2nd round pick to send Bailey to Chicago for a Buyout of 2.66M x 1 and 1.166M x 1. So at most a 500K x 2 buyout of Yamo is worth what? A 3rd at the most? And that's probably being generous.

So we shipped out a guy worth atleast a 2nd and got back atmost a 3rd round pick worth of value. And that's be being generous.

 

[Jimmi McJenkins]

That's why the trade was done, and there's value in cap space but it still doesn't make it a good trade value wise. But I guess that will come down to how you evaluate the players.

I appreciate the explainer and I don't disagree that the value wasn't good.

There are a few things to that.
- Yamo at $3.1M is too expensive for nearly every team, even if they had interest, with a flat cap. Detroit bought him out, so that's where his value was because of the cap considerations.

- Kosin is coming off a breakout season as a 24 year old with 6 seasons of NA pro hockey experience. He wanted to be paid, the Oilers were not going to do that. Hell the wings didn't qualify him either, just signed him as a UFA, they have most space for this gamble.

It's not ideal that the Oilers put themselves into this spot, but it's still better than, say, giving away a top-6 forward at 50% for a 7th round pick or trading a top-6 center a 50% for a guy that wasn't signed and then the other stuff.

It's not good value, but it's the least complex way the Oilers could make it work, and that's just fine.

I'll tell you right now I'm not convinced there was a pick for Yamo(and/or Kostin) out there without something else coming with it.

 

[belair]

Maybe but Seattle signing him shows he had some value. His draft position and established production in the League should give him some value. Kostin for sure had some value. I don’t think Holland got the best deal possible for the players.

His contract negated that value. Cap is at its absolute pinnacle of value.

Nashville gave the Avs Ryan Johansen at full retention for multiple years-- for free. That's a 6'4 right shot center with the ability to score at an elite level.

If you wanted to get the best value for Yamamoto, or the best value for Puljujarvi, you trade them before they get paid. Watch Kostin's value plummet by December.

 

[TheNumber4]

I appreciate the explainer and I don't disagree that the value wasn't good.

There are a few things to that.
- Yamo at $3.1M is too expensive for nearly every team, even if they had interest, with a flat cap. Detroit bought him out, so that's where his value was because of the cap considerations.

- Kosin is coming off a breakout season as a 24 year old with 6 seasons of NA pro hockey experience. He wanted to be paid, the Oilers were not going to do that. Hell the wings didn't qualify him either, just signed him as a UFA, they have most space for this gamble.

It's not ideal that the Oilers put themselves into this spot, but it's still better than, say, giving away a top-6 forward at 50% for a 7th round pick or trading a top-6 center a 50% for a guy that wasn't signed and then the other stuff.

It's not good value, but it's the least complex way the Oilers could make it work, and that's just fine.

I'll tell you right now I'm not convinced there was a pick for Yamo(and/or Kostin) out there without something else coming with it.

If the value wasn't good, that means quite simply that Holland didn't extract maximum value. Maybe he did that out of convenience, 2 birds with 1 stone, and he only needs to talk to his buddy Yzerman to get the deal done. But convenience is not a good enough reason to lose a trade. We should expect more from one one of the highest paid GMs in the League or just any GM. Their job is to extract maximum value from their assets.

Yamo at 3.1M isn't worth it, you are right, but that's not what were evaluating though. We are evaluating what Yamo's Buyout at 500k is worth. Atmost a 3rd, probably closer to a 4th round pick.

The Oilers decided they weren't going to pay Kostin what he was worth. I don't agree with letting him go, but if that's what they decided then they should still atleast throw him on the market and try to get the best possible return for him. Holland didn't do that, he found a convenient and easy trade to make with his buddy Yzerman and went ahead and did that.

Alternatively, he could have shopped Yamo's buyout around and paid a 2026 3rd or 4th round pick. Then signed Kostin for what he wanted at 2M then shopped Kostin around the League. There would have been a sizeable market for Kostin @ 2M even. Look at the Jeannot trade, a similar player type, older, less draft pedigree than Kostin, less production than Kostin at the time of trade (56GP - 14 pts vs. 57GP - 21 pts). You can't tell me Kostin couldn't have gotten atleast one 2nd rd pick.

 

[SupremeTeam16]

That's why the trade was done, and there's value in cap space but it still doesn't make it a good trade value wise. But I guess that will come down to how you evaluate the players.

Put it to you this way:

How much do you think Kostin @ 2M is worth on the market? With his good showing for the Oilers in the regular season and playoffs, his 1st round draft pedigree, his rareness as a player type with this size and speed and willingness to fight, I think he's worth atleast a 2nd round pick, probably more.

How much do you think Yam's buyout is worth at 500k x 2? Well it cost New York only a 2026 2nd round pick to send Bailey to Chicago for a Buyout of 2.66M x 1 and 1.166M x 1. So at most a 500K x 2 buyout of Yamo is worth what? A 3rd at the most? And that's probably being generous.

So we shipped out a guy worth atleast a 2nd and got back atmost a 3rd round pick worth of value. And that's be being generous.

Paying a 2nd or more for the pleasure of paying a guy 2x2 who was previously waiver fodder but had a good 30 game stretch shooting 20% for the leagues highest scoring team… I couldn’t see that ending up bad at all.

Taking a gamble like that is ok for bad teams with lots of cap space but it’s a terrible idea for a contending team with limited cap.

 

[bellagiobob]

If the value wasn't good, that means quite simply that Holland didn't extract maximum value. Maybe he did that out of convenience, 2 birds with 1 stone, and he only needs to talk to his buddy Yzerman to get the deal done. But convenience is not a good enough reason to lose a trade. We should expect more from one one of the highest paid GMs in the League or just any GM. Their job is to extract maximum value from their assets.

Yamo at 3.1M isn't worth it, you are right, but that's not what were evaluating though. We are evaluating what Yamo's Buyout at 500k is worth. Atmost a 3rd, probably closer to a 4th round pick.

The Oilers decided they weren't going to pay Kostin what he was worth. I don't agree with letting him go, but if that's what they decided then they should still atleast throw him on the market and try to get the best possible return for him. Holland didn't do that, he found a convenient and easy trade to make with his buddy Yzerman and went ahead and did that.

Alternatively, he could have shopped Yamo's buyout around and paid a 2026 3rd or 4th round pick. Then signed Kostin for what he wanted at 2M then shopped Kostin around the League. There would have been a sizeable market for Kostin @ 2M even. Look at the Jeannot trade, a similar player type, older, less draft pedigree than Kostin, less production than Kostin at the time of trade (56GP - 14 pts vs. 57GP - 21 pts). You can't tell me Kostin couldn't have gotten atleast one 2nd rd pick.

Kostin had a good year with us, but I think you are over valuing him. He's a player that only a year ago was placed on waivers and not a single team picked him up. Has he shown more worth since then, for sure. But I don't think they'd get anything close to one or multiple 2nd round picks for him.

 

[TheNumber4]

Paying a 2nd or more for the pleasure of paying a guy 2x2 who was previously waiver fodder but had a good 30 game stretch shooting 20% for the leagues highest scoring team… I couldn’t see that ending up bad at all.

Taking a gamble like that is ok for bad teams with lots of cap space but it’s a terrible idea for a contending team with limited cap.

You might not think Kostin @ 2M is worth a 2nd. I can't see that being the case for 31 teams in this League. Even if you don't think the Oilers should make that bet, you just need one team to make that bet in order to get value for Kostin. Jeannot who had 14 points in 56 games returned FIVE picks. I very much doubt a GM couldn't have extracted atleast a 2nd for Kostin who had 21 points in 57 games.

Kostin had a good year with us, but I think you are over valuing him. He's a player that only a year ago was placed on waivers and not a single team picked him up. Has he shown more worth since then, for sure. But I don't think they'd get anything close to one or multiple 2nd round picks for him.

I don't think I am. Former 1st rounder, rare player type with size, skill, and willingness to fight. These players have value in this League. Look at Jeannot.

 

[Anarchism]

You might not think Kostin @ 2M is worth a 2nd. I can't see that being the case for 31 teams in this League. Even if you don't think the Oilers should make that bet, you just need one team to make that bet in order to get value for Kostin. Jeannot who had 14 points in 56 games returned FIVE picks. I very much doubt a GM couldn't have extracted atleast a 2nd for Kostin who had 21 points in 57 games.


I don't think I am. Former 1st rounder, rare player type with size, skill, and willingness to fight. These players have value in this League. Look at Jeannot.

I'm not sure of your values 4 but for sure Yamo had some value.
Holland should have done what I suggested June 2 post 1792.

 

[TheNumber4]

I'm not sure of your values 4 but for sure Yamo had some value.
Holland should have done what I suggested June 2 post 1792.

Value of Yams is up for debate. I think he had value as a player too, obviously not enough to justify the contract that was awarded to him him arbitration, but he had value. But the value of his buyout cost shouldn’t be up for debate, that value should be pretty concrete and established. Many cap dump trades have happened. The most recent one (in that it happened closest in time to the Yamo buyout) was the Bailey trade. There it only cost a 26 2nd to move out essentially 2M x 2 of bad cap. Yamos was only 500k x 2 of bad cap.

 

[TheNumber4]

His contract negated that value. Cap is at its absolute pinnacle of value.

Nashville gave the Avs Ryan Johansen at full retention for multiple year-- for free. That's a 6'4 right shot center with the ability to score at an elite level.

If you wanted to get the best value for Yamamoto, or the best value for Puljujarvi, you trade them before they get paid. Watch Kostin's value plummet by December.

Yamos value we can debate. He’s not worth his contract, I agree. He’s obviously worth something since Seattle signed him. But the value or cost of Yamos buyout shouldn’t be up for debate, and that’s all that’s needed to evaluate if Holland lost or won on value in the Kostin trade.

 

[Fourier]

That's why the trade was done, and there's value in cap space but it still doesn't make it a good trade value wise. But I guess that will come down to how you evaluate the players.

Put it to you this way:

How much do you think Kostin @ 2M is worth on the market? With his good showing for the Oilers in the regular season and playoffs, his 1st round draft pedigree, his rareness as a player type with this size and speed and willingness to fight, I think he's worth atleast a 2nd round pick, probably more.

How much do you think Yam's buyout is worth at 500k x 2? Well it cost New York only a 2026 2nd round pick to send Bailey to Chicago for a Buyout of 2.66M x 1 and 1.166M x 1. So at most a 500K x 2 buyout of Yamo is worth what? A 3rd at the most? And that's probably being generous.

So we shipped out a guy worth atleast a 2nd and got back atmost a 3rd round pick worth of value. And that's be being generous.

I am going to guess that Kostin at $2M would have been a very tough trade to get anything for this off season. No way you would get a 2nd with that contract in this cap environment.

 

[WaitingForUser]

Are we really still talking about Klim Fn Kostin???? He had an ok year and wanted too much money than we could afford. We were able to ditch a terrible contract in Yammo though I still like the player, and avoid another bad one for Kostin in the process. This was in no way a loss IMO

 

[TheNumber4]

I am going to guess that Kostin at $2M would have been a very tough trade to get anything form this off season. No way you would get a 2nd with that contract in this cap environment.

I’d guess differently. We’re talking about a 2M contract. This isn’t like like trying to get someone to take Kassians 3.2M, or Yamo/Pool’s 3M. We are talking about 2M only for an uptrending player who was young and is a rare player type. We know for a fact atleast one team was willing take him on at 2M, and the Oilers themselves would have probably taken him at 1.5M.

Are we really still talking about Klim Fn Kostin???? He had an ok year and wanted too much money than we could afford. We were able to ditch a terrible contract in Yammo though I still like the player, and avoid another bad one for Kostin in the process. This was in no way a loss IMO

Sure it was. It was loss in trade value when you really dig into how much dumping Yamo’s 500k buyout should have cost (probably a 4th round pick).

 

[bellagiobob]

I don't think I am. Former 1st rounder, rare player type with size, skill, and willingness to fight. These players have value in this League. Look at Jeannot.

Jeannot is more of a known commodity, and had that 24 goal season tantalizing other teams. Not saying Kostin doesn't have value, I guess we'll just have to disagree as to how much in todays cap world of hockey.

 

[TheNumber4]

Jeannot is more of a known commodity, and had that 24 goal season tantalizing other teams. Not saying Kostin doesn't have value, I guess we'll just have to disagree as to how much in todays cap world of hockey.

I know Jeannot showed very well the year earlier. But the asset gap between 5 picks and just one measly 3rd/4th (which is what Kostin went for) is sizeable. Even if he didn’t have Jeannot value, you’d think it should be more than one 3rd/4th.

 

[FlameChampion]

I know Jeannot showed very well the year earlier. But the asset gap between 5 picks and just one measly 3rd/4th (which is what Kostin went for) is sizeable. Even if he didn’t have Jeannot value, you’d think it should be more than one 3rd/4th.

Couple reasons why Jeannot got a haul. One he was making like 700k. A cap hit that any team can fit in. He had multiple years of play for a team to feel better about the cost. Stupid trade by TB still.

 

[McSuper]

Value of Yams is up for debate. I think he had value as a player too, obviously not enough to justify the contract that was awarded to him him arbitration, but he had value. But the value of his buyout cost shouldn’t be up for debate, that value should be pretty concrete and established. Many cap dump trades have happened. The most recent one (in that it happened closest in time to the Yamo buyout) was the Bailey trade. There it only cost a 26 2nd to move out essentially 2M x 2 of bad cap. Yamos was only 500k x 2 of bad cap.

You can not measure one trade against the other and say it fair because of this other trade. Other wise Defensive men like Larsson should all return a 1st OA player. What did TML give up to the Canes to move Marleau a 1st and a 7th ? Yes I know his cap hit was higher than Yamamoto but less cash owing. I am also bet Kostin flops in Detroit .