Round 2, Vote 3 (HOH Top Goaltenders)

[BM67]

A H/R split of Brimsek's career.

Year|GP|MIN|W|L|T|GA|GAA|SO|GP|MIN|W|L|GA|GAA|SO
38-39 H|20|1230|17|2|1|33|1.61|4|7|505|5|2|11|1.31|0
38-39 R|23|1390|16|7|0|35|1.51|6|5|359|3|2|7|1.17|1
39-40 H|24|1470|20|3|1|42|1.71|3|3|180|2|1|6|2.00|0
39-40 R|24|1480|11|9|4|56|2.27|3|3|180|0|3|9|3.00|0
40-41 H|24|1510|15|4|5|53|2.11|2|6|378|4|2|11|1.75|1
40-41 R|24|1530|12|4|8|49|1.92|4|5|300|4|1|12|2.40|0
41-42 H|23|1430|16|4|3|45|1.89|3|3|180|1|2|12|4.00|0
41-42 R|24|1510|8|13|3|70|2.78|0|2|127|1|1|4|1.89|0
42-43 H|25|1500|17|3|5|85|3.40|1|5|317|3|2|17|3.22|0
42-43 R|25|1500|7|14|4|91|3.64|0|4|243|1|3|16|3.95|0
45-46 H|15|900|10|4|1|44|2.93|2|5|325|3|2|13|2.40|0
45-46 R|19|1140|6|10|3|67|3.53|0|5|326|2|3|16|2.94|0
46-47 H|30|1800|18|7|5|74|2.47|1|2|120|1|1|7|3.50|0
46-47 R|30|1800|8|16|6|101|3.37|2|3|223|0|3|9|2.42|0
47-48 H|30|1800|12|8|10|80|2.67|3|2|120|1|1|7|3.50|0
47-48 R|30|1800|11|16|3|88|2.93|0|3|197|0|3|13|3.96|0
48-49 H|26|1560|16|8|2|59|2.27|0|3|180|0|3|9|3.00|0
48-49 R|28|1680|10|12|6|88|3.14|1|2|136|1|1|7|3.09|0
49-50 H|35|2100|13|18|4|111|3.17|4|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
49-50 R|35|2100|9|20|6|133|3.80|1|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
Pre H|116|7140|85|16|15|258|2.17|13|24|1560|15|9|57|2.19|1
Pre R|120|7410|54|47|19|301|2.44|13|19|1209|9|10|48|2.38|1
Post H|136|8160|69|45|22|368|2.71|10|12|745|5|7|36|2.90|0
Post R|142|8520|44|74|24|477|3.36|4|13|882|3|10|45|3.06|0
Total H|252|15300|154|61|37|626|2.45|23|36|2305|20|16|93|2.42|1
Total R|262|15930|98|121|43|778|2.93|17|32|2091|12|20|93|2.67|1

Seasonal record vs playoff opponents:

Year|Team|H W|H L|H T|H GF|H GA|R W|R L|R T|R GF|R GA
1938-39|NYR|2|2|0|11|9|3|1|0|12|6
1938-39|TOR|3|0|1|13|4|2|2|0|5|6
1939-40|NYR|2|1|1|14|11|0|3|1|4|11
1940-41|TOR|2|1|1|11|10|2|1|1|6|5
1940-41|DET|2|0|2|13|6|1|0|3|10|8
1941-42|CHI|2|1|1|17|10|1|2|1|9|11
1941-42|DET|3|0|1|15|5|1|2|1|10|11
1942-43|MTL|4|0|1|23|10|1|4|0|15|24
1942-43|DET|3|1|1|16|12|1|3|1|6|13
1945-46|DET*|2|0|0|7|2|1|2|1|11|11
1945-46|MTL*|1|2|0|4|6|1|2|1|11|13
1946-47|MTL|0|5|1|12|20|1|4|1|8|20
1947-48|TOR|3|1|2|15|9|0|5|1|10|20
1948-49|TOR|3|3|0|21|16|2|3|1|12|16

* Bibeault's record

Year|Team|H W|H L|H T|H GF|H GA|R W|R L|R T|R GF|R GA
1945-46|DET*|1|0|2|8|4|0|1|0|0|7
1945-46|MTL*|2|0|0|9|5|0|1|0|3|5

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

I did have Gardiner over Benedict, because apparently I'm one of the few ones here who thinks that Clint Benedict's personal greatness has not been as well established as a lot of the other candidates. What makes Benedict better than Turk Broda, for example?

1) Longevity.
2) Better regular season play.
3) Better play on a variety of situations. (Broda was pretty much only great with the Hap Day dynasty. Benedict was great with dynasty Sens, great with a young Maroons team and very good with the transitional Sens of the mid 10's.) Granted this is similar to longevity, but an important part of why longevity is important.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Home Record

A H/R split of Brimsek's career.

Year|GP|MIN|W|L|T|GA|GAA|SO|GP|MIN|W|L|GA|GAA|SO
38-39 H|20|1230|17|2|1|33|1.61|4|7|505|5|2|11|1.31|0
38-39 R|23|1390|16|7|0|35|1.51|6|5|359|3|2|7|1.17|1
39-40 H|24|1470|20|3|1|42|1.71|3|3|180|2|1|6|2.00|0
39-40 R|24|1480|11|9|4|56|2.27|3|3|180|0|3|9|3.00|0
40-41 H|24|1510|15|4|5|53|2.11|2|6|378|4|2|11|1.75|1
40-41 R|24|1530|12|4|8|49|1.92|4|5|300|4|1|12|2.40|0
41-42 H|23|1430|16|4|3|45|1.89|3|3|180|1|2|12|4.00|0
41-42 R|24|1510|8|13|3|70|2.78|0|2|127|1|1|4|1.89|0
42-43 H|25|1500|17|3|5|85|3.40|1|5|317|3|2|17|3.22|0
42-43 R|25|1500|7|14|4|91|3.64|0|4|243|1|3|16|3.95|0
45-46 H|15|900|10|4|1|44|2.93|2|5|325|3|2|13|2.40|0
45-46 R|19|1140|6|10|3|67|3.53|0|5|326|2|3|16|2.94|0
46-47 H|30|1800|18|7|5|74|2.47|1|2|120|1|1|7|3.50|0
46-47 R|30|1800|8|16|6|101|3.37|2|3|223|0|3|9|2.42|0
47-48 H|30|1800|12|8|10|80|2.67|3|2|120|1|1|7|3.50|0
47-48 R|30|1800|11|16|3|88|2.93|0|3|197|0|3|13|3.96|0
48-49 H|26|1560|16|8|2|59|2.27|0|3|180|0|3|9|3.00|0
48-49 R|28|1680|10|12|6|88|3.14|1|2|136|1|1|7|3.09|0
49-50 H|35|2100|13|18|4|111|3.17|4|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
49-50 R|35|2100|9|20|6|133|3.80|1|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
Pre H|116|7140|85|16|15|258|2.17|13|24|1560|15|9|57|2.19|1
Pre R|120|7410|54|47|19|301|2.44|13|19|1209|9|10|48|2.38|1
Post H|136|8160|69|45|22|368|2.71|10|12|745|5|7|36|2.90|0
Post R|142|8520|44|74|24|477|3.36|4|13|882|3|10|45|3.06|0
Total H|252|15300|154|61|37|626|2.45|23|36|2305|20|16|93|2.42|1
Total R|262|15930|98|121|43|778|2.93|17|32|2091|12|20|93|2.67|1

Seasonal record vs playoff opponents:

Year|Team|H W|H L|H T|H GF|H GA|R W|R L|R T|R GF|R GA
1938-39|NYR|2|2|0|11|9|3|1|0|12|6
1938-39|TOR|3|0|1|13|4|2|2|0|5|6
1939-40|NYR|2|1|1|14|11|0|3|1|4|11
1940-41|TOR|2|1|1|11|10|2|1|1|6|5
1940-41|DET|2|0|2|13|6|1|0|3|10|8
1941-42|CHI|2|1|1|17|10|1|2|1|9|11
1941-42|DET|3|0|1|15|5|1|2|1|10|11
1942-43|MTL|4|0|1|23|10|1|4|0|15|24
1942-43|DET|3|1|1|16|12|1|3|1|6|13
1945-46|DET*|2|0|0|7|2|1|2|1|11|11
1945-46|MTL*|1|2|0|4|6|1|2|1|11|13
1946-47|MTL|0|5|1|12|20|1|4|1|8|20
1947-48|TOR|3|1|2|15|9|0|5|1|10|20
1948-49|TOR|3|3|0|21|16|2|3|1|12|16

* Bibeault's record

Year|Team|H W|H L|H T|H GF|H GA|R W|R L|R T|R GF|R GA
1945-46|DET*|1|0|2|8|4|0|1|0|0|7
1945-46|MTL*|2|0|0|9|5|0|1|0|3|5

Interesting splits H/R. Thank you for the effort.

Still a big gap between the H and R numbers esp the GA/GAA.
Even allowing Brimsek his Home performance only he does not win the Vezina between 1947 and 1949.

The two SC championship seasons - 1939 and 1941, are the only ones where his Road GAA was better than his Home at Boston Garden. So it was doable.

 

[BM67]

A H/R split of Durnan's career.

Year|GP|MIN|W|L|T|GA|GAA|SO|GP|MIN|W|L|GA|GAA|SO
43-44 H|25|1500|22|0|3|50|2.00|0|5|309|4|1|9|1.75|1
43-44 R|25|1500|16|5|4|59|2.36|2|4|240|4|0|5|1.25|0
44-45 H|25|1500|21|2|2|63|2.52|0|3|180|1|2|7|2.33|0
44-45 R|25|1500|17|6|2|58|2.32|1|3|193|1|2|8|2.49|0
45-46 H|19|1140|12|4|3|50|2.63|1|5|326|5|0|11|2.02|0
45-46 R|21|1260|12|7|2|54|2.57|3|4|255|3|1|9|2.12|0
46-47 H|30|1800|19|6|5|57|1.90|3|6|403|5|1|10|1.49|1
46-47 R|30|1800|15|10|5|81|2.70|1|5|316|1|4|13|2.47|0
47-48 H|30|1765|13|12|4|77|2.62|4|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
47-48 R|29|1740|7|16|6|85|2.93|1|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
48-49 H|30|1800|19|8|3|51|1.70|7|3|180|2|1|6|2.00|0
48-49 R|30|1800|9|15|6|75|2.50|3|4|288|1|3|11|2.29|0
49-50 H|32|1920|15|8|9|64|2.00|4|1|60|0|1|3|3.00|0
49-50 R|32|1920|11|13|8|77|2.41|4|2|120|0|2|7|3.50|0
Total H|191|11425|121|40|29|412|2.16|19|23|1458|17|6|46|1.89|2
Total R|192|11520|87|72|33|489|2.55|15|22|1412|10|12|53|2.25|0

Seasonal record vs playoff opponents:

Year|Team|H W|H L|H T|H GF|H GA|R W|R L|R T|R GF|R GA
1943-44|TOR|4|0|1|24|11|3|2|0|17|15
1943-44|CHI|5|0|0|25|7|3|0|2|15|8
1944-45|TOR|3|1|1|19|13|1|4|0|9|15
1945-46|CHI*|3|1|0|24|14|2|1|1|13|11
1945-46|Bos*|2|1|1|15|13|2|2|0|11|10
1946-47|BOS|4|1|1|20|8|5|0|1|20|12
1946-47|TOR|3|0|3|18|7|2|3|1|13|16
1948-49|DET|3|2|1|11|12|1|5|0|8|13
1949-50|NYR*|4|2|1|20|13|2|3|1|14|18

* Bibeault's record

Year|Team|H W|H L|H T|H GF|H GA|R W|R L|R T|R GF|R GA
1945-46|CHI*|0|1|0|1|2|0|1|0|2|7
1945-46|BOS*|1|0|0|3|1|0|1|0|0|3

* McNeil's record

Year|Team|H W|H L|H T|H GF|H GA|R W|R L|R T|R GF|R GA
1949-50|NYR*|-|-|-|-|-|1|0|0|5|1

 

[BM67]

While at the book store the other day, I saw that there's an updated version of Without Fear, The Greatest Goalies of All-time. It has a new chapter The Next 50, making it a top 100 list now.

 

[ContrarianGoaltender]

Playoff numbers for team success vs. expected:

Rank|Goalie|Series W|Exp Series|Diff|%|Cups|Exp Cups|Diff|%
1|Turk Broda|15|10.34|+4.66|+45%|5|3.07|+1.93|+63%
2|Charlie Gardiner|5|3.10|+1.90|+61%|1|0.28|+0.72|+257%
3|Ed Belfour|19|17.77|+1.23|+7%|1|1.65|-0.65|-39%
4|Johnny Bower|8|6.97|+1.03|+15%|3|2.37|+0.63|+27%
5|Tony Esposito|9|8.43|+0.57|+7%|0|0.76|-0.76|-100%
6|Bernie Parent|9|8.48|+0.52|+6%|2|0.99|+1.01|+102%
7|Georges Vezina|3|2.60|+0.40|+15%|3|2.60|+0.40|+15%
8|Clint Benedict|5|5.55|-0.55|-10%|3|3.80|-0.80|-21%
9|Frank Brimsek|7|8.37|-1.37|-16%|2|2.84|-0.84|-30%
10|Bill Durnan|5|7.4|-2.40|-32%|2|3.05|-1.05|-34%

(Note: These are NHL numbers only, and for Vezina and Benedict Cups refers to league championships. My system can't really deal with games played against western teams because they didn't play a common schedule with the NHL champs. It should be noted however that during the NHL years Benedict was 4-0 in the series against the western champions with the Sens and Maroons while Vezina's Canadiens were 1-1 with the 1919 series not completed. If those results were incorporated it is likely that Benedict's playoff team record was as good or maybe even be a bit better than Vezina's.)

General comments:

There are a lot of options this round. Right now I'm open to considering anybody for a spot in my top four, as I really like all five of the new goalies that were added (all of them made the top 15 on my original list).

Based on the voting from last round, Brimsek looks to be a pretty safe bet to go next on the list, and I think justifiably so.

I'm still leaning towards Vezina slightly over Benedict but I have trouble placing the two of them relative to everybody else.

Some strong evidence has been presented so far for Charlie Gardiner. I rank peak and prime pretty highly, so I'm moving him up my list.

I gave some arguments for Bernie Parent last round, but upon further analysis of the numbers vs. backups I changed my mind and ended up with both Tretiak and Dryden ahead of him. Parent's early career save percentage numbers were very good relative to league average, but they weren't outstanding when compared to Doug Favell and late-career Jacques Plante, which could indicate they were somewhat team-aided. However, I do think Parent's insane peak and overall career should be enough to earn him a spot in the top four this round.

I think Tony Esposito's playoff failures are generally overblown. He also has a very strong regular season record, ranking #1 all-time among goalies in regular season GVT. That is in part because of the lack of parity in the 1970s, but in terms of career regular season value Esposito certainly rivals anybody in this group.

Johnny Bower has a save percentage case to be rated very highly in this group. From 1959 to 1968, he ranked 2-1-1-2-5-1-1-1-1-1 in the league in save percentage. How much the Leafs' defence had to do with those numbers is a key question, however.

Ed Belfour's playoff record may even be a bit better than the numbers above suggest, as his playoff save percentages were generally very good. He is #2 all-time among goalies in playoff GVT, although a big part of that was obviously because he played in the four playoff round era.

I'm still not sold on Bill Durnan. To rank him in the top four this round (which is higher than I currently have him), I'd like to see more evidence that his individual statistical performance was great, or at least that knowledgeable observers who weren't his coaches or teammates rated him very highly, based on his play and not just on his accomplishments (All-Stars, Vezinas, etc.).

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Has anyone done a study yet of the effect of players leaving for WWII had on the O6 teams?

the best study I know of is by hfboards poster arrbez (who seems to have retired from the website after winning the last All Time Draft):

This is my quickie study of the War Years. I took each team's 1941 roster (in order of points scored) and showed which players left which year. One thing this can't account for is the young players who never got a chance to join the league from 1942-1945. It also omits 1946, which was still very much affected by the War.

https://spreadsheets0.google.com/sp...5Ytshi7edGdqV2RMYnBWTzVKRVFYQzI5TlVaalE&gid=0

Yet they also won the SC the four season after WWII - Montreal in 1946, Toronto in 1947 to 1949. Plus Toronto won in 1942 and 1951 while Detroit won in 1943 and 1950. Rather clear indication that with or without WWII the Bruins with Brimsek were not going to make it happen between 1942 and 1951.

The thing is that young players who left to join the military lost 2-3 years of key development. So I think it's likely that teams that were more affected by the war would remain affected for several years afterwards. I don't think it's a coincidence that Toronto and Montreal remained the dominant NHL teams for a few years after the war, basically until a new generation in Detroit emerged.

The hows and whys of which players left for the war and which didn't could be a very interesting thread itself. But I'm pretty sure that it was a bit easier to get draft deferments in Canada than in the United States. I know for sure that Montreal in particular put for a lot of effort to get draft deferments for its best players.

 

[Morgoth Bauglir]

the best study I know of is by hfboards poster arrbez (who seems to have retired from the website after winning the last All Time Draft):

https://spreadsheets0.google.com/sp...5Ytshi7edGdqV2RMYnBWTzVKRVFYQzI5TlVaalE&gid=0

I'm going to take a look at it right after dinner

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

1) Longevity.

Benedict had an 18 year professional career, but it was not unheard of for goalies of that generation to play a very long time. Vezina had a 15 year professional career and Hugh Lehman played for 20 years.

Broda played for 15 years, among the best during his era.

I really don't see longevity being a big difference here.

2) Better regular season play.

This is a good point. Broda seems pretty clearly the 3rd best regular season goalie of his era. If Benedict is behind Vezina, it isn't by as much as Broda is behind Brimsek and Durnan (in the regular season).

3) Better play on a variety of situations. (Broda was pretty much only great with the Hap Day dynasty. Benedict was great with dynasty Sens, great with a young Maroons team and very good with the transitional Sens of the mid 10's.) Granted this is similar to longevity, but an important part of why longevity is important.

Interesting observation. Here are Broda's GAAs

1936-37 NHL 2.30 (7)
1937-38 NHL 2.56 (5)
1938-39 NHL 2.15 (3)
1939-40 NHL 2.23 (4)
1940-41 NHL 2.00 (1)
1941-42 NHL 2.76 (2)
1942-43 NHL 3.18 (2)
1946-47 NHL 2.87 (2)
1947-48 NHL 2.38 (1)
1948-49 NHL 2.68 (3)
1949-50 NHL 2.48 (3)
1950-51 NHL 2.23 (3)

I bolded the years when Hap Day was coach. Seems that Hap Day's clutch-and-grab defensive system may have helped Broda's numbers. Leafs won Cups in 1942, 1945 (with Frank McCool), 1947, 1948, and 1949 with Hap Day coaching. They did win a Cup in 1951 after Day retired, however - an aging Broda ended up playing the majority of playoff games after Al Rollins' injury in 1951 and seems to have been very good.

 

[Canadiens1958]

The Depression Era

the best study I know of is by hfboards poster arrbez (who seems to have retired from the website after winning the last All Time Draft):



https://spreadsheets0.google.com/sp...5Ytshi7edGdqV2RMYnBWTzVKRVFYQzI5TlVaalE&gid=0




The thing is that young players who left to join the military lost 2-3 years of key development. So I think it's likely that teams that were more affected by the war would remain affected for several years afterwards. I don't think it's a coincidence that Toronto and Montreal remained the dominant NHL teams for a few years after the war, basically until a new generation in Detroit emerged.

The hows and whys of which players left for the war and which didn't could be a very interesting thread itself. But I'm pretty sure that it was a bit easier to get draft deferments in Canada than in the United States. I know for sure that Montreal in particular put for a lot of effort to get draft deferments for its best players.

Still you are looking at WWII in a vacuum. There was a depression that effectively stalled the development of hockey for app 10 years. Throw in six years of WWII and basically you are looking at close to a lost generation of hockey talent.

Look at the history of two goalies - Bill Durnan and Normie Smith. Both opted for job security at various points in their career pre WWII.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Still you are looking at WWII in a vacuum. There was a depression that effectively stalled the development of hockey for app 10 years. Throw in six years of WWII and basically you are looking at close to a lost generation of hockey talent.

Look at the history of two goalies - Bill Durnan and Normie Smith. Both opted for job security at various points in their career pre WWII.

Seems to me that the effects of the depression would hit each team fairly equally, where we know the WWII effects were quite a bit different from one team to another.

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

Still you are looking at WWII in a vacuum. There was a depression that effectively stalled the development of hockey for app 10 years. Throw in six years of WWII and basically you are looking at close to a lost generation of hockey talent.

Look at the history of two goalies - Bill Durnan and Normie Smith. Both opted for job security at various points in their career pre WWII.

This is why I am skeptical of players who joined the NHL in the late 30's/early-mid 40's. Especially if they didn't have career's extend to the mid 50's when the talent pool fully recovered. (Players like Maurice Richard and Harry Lumley being obvious examples of that qualify for the exception.)

 

[Canadiens1958]

NHL Darwinism

Seems to me that the effects of the depression would hit each team fairly equally, where we know the WWII effects were quite a bit different from one team to another.

1934-35 NHL season finished with 9 teams. 1942-43 NHL season started with 6 teams. Three teams were lost to the effects of the depression within 7 season so the effects of the depression were not fairly equal.

The players from the contracted NHL teams were distributed within the NHL - Syd Howe, Toe Blake, Charlie Rayner, HHOF quality amongst them. Effectively contraction was the farm system for the NHL.Likewise management.Tommy Gorman had landed in Montreal with the Canadiens. WWII did not make hime a better judge of hockey talent.

Then we have the remaining teams. Toronto - pre WWII, Bill Durnan walks out on a competition with Turk Broda preferring the security/better pay of a regular job. Toronto does not blink they have Broda. Durnan resurfaces in Montreal during WWII with a "War Effort" job, yet gets pigeoned holed as a WWII player. Teams with scouting and depth had advantages throughout the era in question.

Then we have the Bert Gardiner story.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/g/gardibe01.html

1939 semi finals replaces Dave Kerr/Rangers - injured after game 1. Plays Frank Brimsek and the Bruins to a 3-3 standoff in games 2-7. Bruins advance, game 1 victory. Yet when Bert Gardiner steps up as the Boston goalie, replacing Brimsek, in 1943-44 he is viewed as a WWII player.

So you have examples of depth, good and bad team management throughout the depression WWII era.

Bringing it back to the issue at hand, Brimsek, Broda, Durnan, WWII is a not a factor, the Red Line changed the game and the demands on goalies. Given opportunities combined with different demands the two best goalies - Broda and Durnan, rose to the top.

 

[Killion]

Bringing it back to the issue at hand, Brimsek, Broda, Durnan, WWII is a not a factor, the Red Line changed the game and the demands on goalies. Given opportunities combined with different demands the two best goalies - Broda and Durnan, rose to the top.

... in the Shuffling Madness of Locomotive Breath, did you actually see these guys play C58?. I simply cannot believe for less than a split second that Broda, Brimsek or anyone else prior to Plante, Sawchuk, Hall or even Bruce Gamble were any better. Worsley et al. Hell, Id rate Les Binkley outta Cleveland and the AHL/IHL better.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Before My Time

... in the Shuffling Madness of Locomotive Breath, did you actually see these guys play C58?. I simply cannot believe for less than a split second that Broda, Brimsek or anyone else prior to Plante, Sawchuk, Hall or even Bruce Gamble were any better. Worsley et al. Hell, Id rate Les Binkley outta Cleveland and the AHL/IHL better.

Brimsek, Broda, Durnan were before my time. Did see Lumley especially with the Bruins so it is possible to project a bit.

Level of dominance in the league is a consideration. Late forties you had Brimsek, Broda, Durnan, Lumley, Rayner, 5 HHOFers who took teams to the SC finals. Neither Gamble or Binkley were particularly mobile or agile. Excellent goalies nonetheless.

 

[Morgoth Bauglir]

... in the Shuffling Madness of Locomotive Breath, did you actually see these guys play C58?. I simply cannot believe for less than a split second that Broda, Brimsek or anyone else prior to Plante, Sawchuk, Hall or even Bruce Gamble were any better. Worsley et al. Hell, Id rate Les Binkley outta Cleveland and the AHL/IHL better.

He feels the piston scraping, steam breaking on his brow.
Old Charlie he stole the handle and the train won't stop going:
No way to slow down.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Playoff numbers for team success vs. expected:

Rank|Goalie|Series W|Exp Series|Diff|%|Cups|Exp Cups|Diff|%
1|Turk Broda|15|10.34|+4.66|+45%|5|3.07|+1.93|+63%
2|Charlie Gardiner|5|3.10|+1.90|+61%|1|0.28|+0.72|+257%
3|Ed Belfour|19|17.77|+1.23|+7%|1|1.65|-0.65|-39%
4|Johnny Bower|8|6.97|+1.03|+15%|3|2.37|+0.63|+27%
5|Tony Esposito|9|8.43|+0.57|+7%|0|0.76|-0.76|-100%
6|Bernie Parent|9|8.48|+0.52|+6%|2|0.99|+1.01|+102%
7|Georges Vezina|3|2.60|+0.40|+15%|3|2.60|+0.40|+15%
8|Clint Benedict|5|5.55|-0.55|-10%|3|3.80|-0.80|-21%
9|Frank Brimsek|7|8.37|-1.37|-16%|2|2.84|-0.84|-30%
10|Bill Durnan|5|7.4|-2.40|-32%|2|3.05|-1.05|-34%

(Note: These are NHL numbers only, and for Vezina and Benedict Cups refers to league championships. My system can't really deal with games played against western teams because they didn't play a common schedule with the NHL champs. It should be noted however that during the NHL years Benedict was 4-0 in the series against the western champions with the Sens and Maroons while Vezina's Canadiens were 1-1 with the 1919 series not completed. If those results were incorporated it is likely that Benedict's playoff team record was as good or maybe even be a bit better than Vezina's.)

General comments:

There are a lot of options this round. Right now I'm open to considering anybody for a spot in my top four, as I really like all five of the new goalies that were added (all of them made the top 15 on my original list).

Based on the voting from last round, Brimsek looks to be a pretty safe bet to go next on the list, and I think justifiably so.

I'm still leaning towards Vezina slightly over Benedict but I have trouble placing the two of them relative to everybody else.

Some strong evidence has been presented so far for Charlie Gardiner. I rank peak and prime pretty highly, so I'm moving him up my list.I gave some arguments for Bernie Parent last round, but upon further analysis of the numbers vs. backups I changed my mind and ended up with both Tretiak and Dryden ahead of him. Parent's early career save percentage numbers were very good relative to league average, but they weren't outstanding when compared to Doug Favell and late-career Jacques Plante, which could indicate they were somewhat team-aided. However, I do think Parent's insane peak and overall career should be enough to earn him a spot in the top four this round.

I think Tony Esposito's playoff failures are generally overblown. He also has a very strong regular season record, ranking #1 all-time among goalies in regular season GVT. That is in part because of the lack of parity in the 1970s, but in terms of career regular season value Esposito certainly rivals anybody in this group.

Johnny Bower has a save percentage case to be rated very highly in this group. From 1959 to 1968, he ranked 2-1-1-2-5-1-1-1-1-1 in the league in save percentage. How much the Leafs' defence had to do with those numbers is a key question, however.

Ed Belfour's playoff record may even be a bit better than the numbers above suggest, as his playoff save percentages were generally very good. He is #2 all-time among goalies in playoff GVT, although a big part of that was obviously because he played in the four playoff round era.

I'm still not sold on Bill Durnan. To rank him in the top four this round (which is higher than I currently have him), I'd like to see more evidence that his individual statistical performance was great, or at least that knowledgeable observers who weren't his coaches or teammates rated him very highly, based on his play and not just on his accomplishments (All-Stars, Vezinas, etc.).

Same here.

Gardiner is firmly in my top 4 at the moment.

And Tony Esposito is knockin' on that door too.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

He feels the piston scraping, steam breaking on his brow.
Old Charlie he stole the handle and the train won't stop going:
No way to slow down.

"And the all-time winner
Has got him by the balls."

God or Brodeur?

 

[Sanf]

I had time and made a quick search about Benedict.Found this

source is 19.2.1927 New Castle News
Text is partly too unclear for me so the bolded are straight quotes (with possible misspells by me).

They made a ranking of best goalies at the time. I have understood that it is small newspaper but the writer himself admits that he is too rookie to make a list so they ask the question from "three qualified experts from New York, Boston and Montreal."

Here is their top six
1. Alec Connell 2. Vernon Forbes 3. "Sleepy" Clint Benedict 4. Jack Roach 5. Hugh Lehman 6. Roy Worters

About Benedict "For a long time almost a unanimous choice for the best goalie, but undoubtedly slipping a bit this year"

I think that on the unclear part there are arguments about all the goalies. This is not only GAA based ranking. Here is what they say about Chabot."A wonderful goalie to be sure and ranking right along with Connell as far goals scored against him go" Still they didn´t rank him in top six. Though the reason could be that this was made in the middle of his first season in NHL (same goes to Hainsworth) .

I remember reading a claim that Maroons acquired Flat Walsh at that season because of Benedicts "slipping". That seemed to be only temporary and Walsh got his chance only after Benedicts injury in 1929-1930 season. I found many articles from late 20´s which calls him "still one of the best".

 

[MXD]

Quick question regarding Broda :

Could he be regarded as "only" the fourth best regular season goalie of his era, after Durnan, Brimsek and Rayner?

Didn't brought the question in the preceding round, because I was ranking Broda far down the list thus didn't think it was really relevant. But the tables and quotes posted in the last thread kindof hinted at such ranking....

 

[Canadiens1958]

Finals & Playoff Performance

Benedict had an 18 year professional career, but it was not unheard of for goalies of that generation to play a very long time. Vezina had a 15 year professional career and Hugh Lehman played for 20 years.

Broda played for 15 years, among the best during his era.

I really don't see longevity being a big difference here.



This is a good point. Broda seems pretty clearly the 3rd best regular season goalie of his era. If Benedict is behind Vezina, it isn't by as much as Broda is behind Brimsek and Durnan (in the regular season).



Interesting observation. Here are Broda's GAAs

1936-37 NHL 2.30 (7)
1937-38 NHL 2.56 (5)
1938-39 NHL 2.15 (3)
1939-40 NHL 2.23 (4)
1940-41 NHL 2.00 (1)
1941-42 NHL 2.76 (2)
1942-43 NHL 3.18 (2)
1946-47 NHL 2.87 (2)
1947-48 NHL 2.38 (1)
1948-49 NHL 2.68 (3)
1949-50 NHL 2.48 (3)
1950-51 NHL 2.23 (3)

I bolded the years when Hap Day was coach. Seems that Hap Day's clutch-and-grab defensive system may have helped Broda's numbers. Leafs won Cups in 1942, 1945 (with Frank McCool), 1947, 1948, and 1949 with Hap Day coaching. They did win a Cup in 1951 after Day retired, however - an aging Broda ended up playing the majority of playoff games after Al Rollins' injury in 1951 and seems to have been very good.

Still need a goalie that puts away the opposition in the finals. That is what Broda, Dryden and Plante did on dynasty teams in the Finals. 1947-1951, Leafs with Broda three loses in four finals, Plante five loses in five finals, Dryden three loses in four finals.

Blake with the Canadiens 1965 and 66 Finals with Hodge/Worsley saw the team lose five times in two finals.

Broda had the shutdown capability.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Same here.

Gardiner is firmly in my top 4 at the moment.

And Tony Esposito is knockin' on that door too.

Tough for me to give Esposito any serious consideration this round. If he's considered the 4th best goalie of the 70's behind Dryden, Tretiak, and Parent, I can't justify putting him ahead of any guys who were considered the best in the world or co-best in the world.

Esposito seems to be comparable to Belfour and Bower in the sense that they were great goalies that had very tough competition (Roy, Hasek, Brodeur, Barrasso) and (Plante, Hall, Sawchuk, Worsley). Esposito appears to have the best regular season resume of the 3, but also the worst playoff resume.

Those 3 will likely be my bottom 3 this round.



Something else to think about...what would Esposito's AS record look like had Tretiak and Holecek also been competing with him for those?

 

[Michael Farkas]

@anyone: So...Bernie Parent dominates Tony Esposito so badly that it's not even close...?

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

@anyone: So...Bernie Parent dominates Tony Esposito so badly that it's not even close...?

I wouldn't say that. His peak does appear to be quite a bit better though.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

@anyone: So...Bernie Parent dominates Tony Esposito so badly that it's not even close...?

Really.

Parent jumped to the WHA as pretty much a nobody.

The big difference when he came back was that Fred Shero was coaching and he had turned the Flyers into monsters. No question he played great after that, but was it the team or confidence or what?