Round 2, Vote 2 (HFNYR Top NYR Wingers All-Time)

[Crease]

Not always possible, but to extent possible I am trying to weigh more heavily on contributions while they were a Ranger.

No dis on Jagr, but he was here towards the end of a brilliant career still in what are unarguably the final stage. End of the middle, beginning of the end, what ever ya wanna call it. No complaints on his production, and even saying that was not a great team.

Gartner, I would not have traded, was comparable shooter (overall), much faster, also better defender. Had a better look at him around his prime while he was here.

Not saying who is the better guy all time,
Saying considering how each performed when here, if I could choose only 1 of the 2, my pick is Gartner.

Not extremely scientific on this one.
Saw them both, liked them both, mostly.
Liked gartner better.
That's all.

If Gartner doesn't get traded at the '94 deadline, and the team still goes on to win the Cup, he's easily in my Top 10. Wondering how much the trade should hurt him here.

 

[bernmeister]

Does anyone want to make a push for Lynn Patrick in the top 5 this round? His playoff resume is dismal. Fall-off-the-face-of-the-Earth dismal.

I like Graves, Jagr, Hadfield, Henry, and Cook over him. Maybe even Nevins.

I know --- and I had him end of the 1st!!!
He had some good stats. Trying to remember if I threw him a bone - did he take off for military service? or something like that. Also, like I say, Patrick name big in Ranger history. May have overreached there.

While regular season is a larger statistical base (bigger 'sampling size'), and necessary to even get into the POs, I would have to seriously consider "Fall-off-the-face-of-the-Earth dismal", esp. if repeated.

It's one thing to be tough on the 70s Rangers cause Orr killed us, and that Montreal squad was also elite. But Patrick seems to be a zippo post season.

Yes, I am willing to be flexible on Pats.

 

[Greg02]

I don't think Patrick is the worst choice in the world; arguably he has the best regular season resume of the remaining names, but personally I heavily weigh playoffs, so I don't think he'll be top 10 for me.

 

[bernmeister]

If Gartner doesn't get traded at the '94 deadline, and the team still goes on to win the Cup, he's easily in my Top 10. Wondering how much the trade should hurt him here.

Not in final order, but 2nd draft includes:
definite
Bun Cook
Mike Gartner
Adam Graves
Camille Henry

leaning yes
Jaromir Jagr
Vic Hadfield
Steve Vickers

1 out of 3
Don Maloney
Bob Nevin
Lynn Patrick

 

[bernmeister]

I don't think Patrick is the worst choice in the world; arguably he has the best regular season resume of the remaining names, but personally I heavily weigh playoffs, so I don't think he'll be top 10 for me.

I leaned on this before, not realizing how bad his POs were.

The floor is open.
Make the arguments to sway my vote.

At this point the 7 indicated are in or leaning
3 names for 1 spot....

why Nevin or Maloney over Patrick?
Make your case at earliest convenience.

 

[bernmeister]

If Gartner doesn't get traded at the '94 deadline, and the team still goes on to win the Cup, he's easily in my Top 10. Wondering how much the trade should hurt him here.

Would have loved to have Gartner here more seasons! His stats would have been better. With mo time + better numbers, he might have been our #5 overall.

This is like when I tell people today, the idea is not to trade Kreider for EKane.
The idea is to trade others and add EKane to Kreider.

But let's not digress TOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much.

 

[Crease]

I have Hadfield higher. Graves is a good comparable: Above-average goal scorer (Graves better though), third most talented on his line, dropped the gloves when needed, several 20 goal seasons in a row. One big 50 goal season. In fact, Hadfield was the first Ranger to hit 50, and did so in 6 less games than Graves and 4 less than Jagr. Graves definitely ahead of Hadfield, but Hadfield not that far behind.

 

[mike14]

I'm still high on Patrick. As discussed in the last thread his regular season accomplishments see him right up there: 1 x 1st AST, 1 x 2nd AST, 3rd in hart voting once, lead the league in goals once and was top 5 one other time, was top 10 in assists in twice and second in league scoring twice as well as another top 5 finish and he was on a cup winner.

As pointed out his playoff #s look crap. I don't want this to come off as 'justification' but:
34-35 he lead the team in playoff pts with 4 in 4
36-37 he's in a 5 way tie for 2nd place in team scoring and a top 3 winger
37-38 the highest scorer on the team had 2 pts (Lynn had one) and the team only managed 7 goals in 3 games
38-39 one of 5 players with 2 pts, the team leader had 4
39-40 5th highest winger, only had 4 pts, team leader had 9
40-41 1 pt in 3 games (team leaders had 2 pts), team only scored 6 goals of which Lynn got 1
41-42 6 games 1 goal, very poor showing.

As shown, he never dominated a playoff year (unless you want to count his 1st year) but I would argue that only 39-40 and 41-42 were dreadful years with the rest being 'average' . IMO if you combine an 'average' playoff career with what is a very impressive regular season career he should still be very competitive for a top 10 spot, however if you are looking playoff 'dominance' as a factor you have to mark him down.

Onto Hadfield vs Graves, I haven't been able to split this guys at all throughout this (I have changed their ranking order though). I think it's going to be one of those ones where I end up going with the guy I saw play, because I saw what effect he had on the team.

I'm currently leaning:
Patrick
Cook
Graves
Hadfield
Jagr
Gartner
Vickers
Henry

leaving Maloney and Nevin on the outside however it's incredibly close

 

[Cake or Death]

I'm still high on Patrick.

I don't disagree: I have Patrick in the 7 slot myself.

 

[Cake or Death]

Regarding the Hadfield vs Graves scenario, I am not understanding how Graves is coming in ahead of Hadfield. I'll make my explanation for why I give Hadfield the edge, and maybe others can explain why they have Graves ahead. These guys are so similar in so many ways. Even off the ice, if you read up on Hadfield, you'll learn that much like Graves he has done a ton of charity work and helped raise around 2 million for childhood anemia.

Both guys are great NYR, heart and soul guys who did a ton on and off the ice. Similar physical presence and ability to play mean. Super close, but overall Hadfield has stronger career scoring numbers, one of the strongest seasons in NYR history by a wing, more career points as a NYR, and a few other points I'll cover. I'll start with career scoring, because Hadfield and Graves are close, but maybe most are not aware Hadfield is ahead in points and points per game. This is one instance where the adjusted stats of both players are almost identical to their actual stats, so different eras can be compared a bit.

Regular Season Career Numbers:

Player | GP | Gls | Ast | Pts | GPG | APG | PPG | GWG | Sh% | +/-
Hadfield|839|262|310|572|0.31|0.37|0.68|39|16.2|+95
Graves|772|280|227|507|0.36|0.29|0.66|36|12.1|+6

Playoff Career Numbers:

Player | GP | Gls | Ast | Pts | GPG | APG | PPG
Hadfield|61|22|19|41|0.36|0.31|0.67
Graves|68|28|16|44|0.41|0.24|0.65

Graves winning a Cup is something in his favor, but I view that more as a team accomplishment, not to mention Graves never had to play against Orr and Espo in the playoffs or the 70s Canadiens lol. Graves does have 18 more career goals and 6 more career playoff goals. But that's about the only area he has an individual edge. On the flip side, Hadfield has more games played, more points, higher regular season and playoff points per game. This is razor close, almost a coin toss, but Hadfield has a longer tenure, 65 more points and ever so slightly better PPG. On top of this, there are a few additional reasons I gave Hadfield the edge over Graves.

One, you have to consider the time Hadfield played when you look at what he accomplished. When he scored 50 in a season, for instance, no NY Ranger had ever done it. In fact, it was such a very rare thing that Hadfield was only the 6th player in NHL history to accomplish the feat. Prior to Hadfield, only Richard, Hull, Geoffrion, Esposito and Bucyk ever scored 50 in a season. To further put that in perspective, the year Graves notched 52, there were 8 other 50 goal scorers that season alone. When Hadfield did it, he was the 6th guy to do it in NHL history – that is only 6 guys over the span of the first 54 NHL seasons.

That, for me, is an edge for Hadfield. Scoring, as mentioned, was super similar with both guys. I saw both play. They were both tough and physical and still had some real decent hands. I'd say Graves was the slightly better goal scorer, Hadfield the better passer. Both guys left it on the ice and played hard, but I gave Hadfield another slight edge in leadership. Graves led, to be sure. But on a team with some all-time NYR greats, Hadfield was the team's captain.

My last edge in Hadfield's favor is that he had one of the more phenomenal seasons any NYR winger ever had – better, in my opinion, than any Graves had.

Player | GP | Gls | Ast | Pts | GPG | APG | PPG
Hadfield 71-72|78|50|56|106|0.64|0.72|1.36
Graves 93-94|84|52|27|79|0.62|0.32|0.94

Not only is that numerically a much stronger season, but looking where Hadfield finished against his peers puts it in further perspective: 50 goals finishes 2nd in the league behind Espo; 56 assists finishes 4th in the league behind Orr, Espo, Ratelle; 106 points finishes 4th in the league behind Espo, Orr, Ratelle. In short, he is the top scoring winger that season in goals, assists, and points and is sitting amidst all hall of famers that year in scoring leaders. Looking at Graves' best season: 52 goals is 5th overall (sweet); 27 assists is 85th overall; 79 points is 33rd overall. A fabulous season, but for sure below Hadfield's best season.

I know there is a realistic and understandable desire to give Graves the nod. Most all of us saw him play and know what a warrior he was, how good he was, and what he meant to the team. We also know what a class act and generous person he is off the ice. But Hadfield brings all those same attributes... but as a NYR he also has more career points, more games played, higher regular season and playoff PPG, was the team captain, accomplished a rare feat at the time becoming only the 6th player in NHL history to score 50 goals in a season, and had one of the best seasons a NYR winger ever had. You'll get a feel of how good he was in 71-72 looking at this:

Jagr 2005-06: 1.50 PPG
Hadfield 1971-72: 1.36 PPG
Graves 1993-94: 0.94 PPG

Hadfield's a close 0.14 PPG behind Jagr's monster season, whereas Graves is a distant 0.56 PPG behind Jagr. Anyway, that's my case for Hadfield. I think maybe he is getting a bit underrated and I simply tried to explain why. Cheers

 

[bernmeister]

I'm still high on Patrick. As discussed in the last thread his regular season accomplishments see him right up there: 1 x 1st AST, 1 x 2nd AST, 3rd in hart voting once, lead the league in goals once and was top 5 one other time, was top 10 in assists in twice and second in league scoring twice as well as another top 5 finish and he was on a cup winner.

As pointed out his playoff #s look crap. I don't want this to come off as 'justification' but:
34-35 he lead the team in playoff pts with 4 in 4
36-37 he's in a 5 way tie for 2nd place in team scoring and a top 3 winger
37-38 the highest scorer on the team had 2 pts (Lynn had one) and the team only managed 7 goals in 3 games
38-39 one of 5 players with 2 pts, the team leader had 4
39-40 5th highest winger, only had 4 pts, team leader had 9
40-41 1 pt in 3 games (team leaders had 2 pts), team only scored 6 goals of which Lynn got 1
41-42 6 games 1 goal, very poor showing.

As shown, he never dominated a playoff year (unless you want to count his 1st year) but I would argue that only 39-40 and 41-42 were dreadful years with the rest being 'average' . IMO if you combine an 'average' playoff career with what is a very impressive regular season career he should still be very competitive for a top 10 spot, however if you are looking playoff 'dominance' as a factor you have to mark him down.

Onto Hadfield vs Graves, I haven't been able to split this guys at all throughout this (I have changed their ranking order though). I think it's going to be one of those ones where I end up going with the guy I saw play, because I saw what effect he had on the team.

I'm currently leaning:
Patrick
Cook
Graves
Hadfield
Jagr
Gartner
Vickers
Henry

leaving Maloney and Nevin on the outside however it's incredibly close

This may well be my final 8,
Patrick
Cook
Graves
Hadfield
Jagr
Gartner
Vickers
Henry

but I'm not sold on the order.

Do we all want to agree that Maloney and Nevin appear not to make the cut, with it being open anyone who disagrees can say so and plead their case, but we are going to focus on the order of the above 8?

 

[Crease]

Regarding the Hadfield vs Graves scenario, I am not understanding how Graves is coming in ahead of Hadfield.

Nice writeup on Hadfield v. Graves. I agree that Hadfield's best season was more impressive than Graves best season. That being said, Graves was a significantly better goalscorer. Four 30 goal seasons compared to Hadfield's one, in a decade with better goaltending and tighter defense.

For what it's worth, Chief is old enough for Hadfield to have been his childhood hero but he's been pounding Graves' drum since the preliminary round.

Do we all want to agree that Maloney and Nevin appear not to make the cut

Yes I have them outside my top 8 this round.

 

[bernmeister]

Alright then, for now Maloney and Nevin are out.

Maybe it would be helpful to split this 8 into 2 halves...

This may well be my final 8,
Patrick
Cook
Graves
Hadfield
Jagr
Gartner
Vickers
Henry

As to ballpark position, NOT final on precise slot
Top 4 def Middle Bottom
Cook Patrick Jagr
Graves Vickers
Hadfield Henry

Comments invited:
Gartner

 

[Crease]

Are we underrating Gartner relative to Jagr? And are we underrating Camille Henry overall? I'm going to do an in-depth look at Camille Henry later. His numbers pop at first glance. And I think he's the best goalscorer in this group.

 

[Greg02]

My thoughts are currently at:

Bun
Graves
Jagr
Henry
Hadfield
Patrick
Gartner
Vickers

I feel like Henry should definitely be top 10, I'm just not sure exactly where.

Not sure I see the argument for Gartner over Jagr. Not only did Jags completely bring the team back from the dead, he was the best player in the league for a point with the Rangers. Gartner didn't even have an AST selection, let alone a Pearson and a Hart runner up. I know awards aren't everything, but was Gartner ever the best player on the Rangers? From what I can tell, no. Jagr was (in my opinion at least) the top of the food chain in the entire world in 2005-2006. And it's not like Gartner has so much more longevity.

 

[Crease]

I feel much better about having Henry in my top 5 this round than Patrick. Where I stand right now:

Graves
Hadfield
Henry
Cook
Jagr

Patrick/Gartner

Vickers/Maloney

Beyond Patrick's dismal playoff resume, it bothers me that his best year was arguably the first year of the weak WWII era. Graves and Hadfield have grown on me. I really like the complete game they each played.

 

[Cake or Death]

Nice writeup on Hadfield v. Graves. I agree that Hadfield's best season was more impressive than Graves best season. That being said, Graves was a significantly better goalscorer. Four 30 goal seasons compared to Hadfield's one, in a decade with better goaltending and tighter defense.

Not sure I agree with calling Graves the significantly better goal scorer. Marginally better goal scorer in a higher scoring era, yes. The other two items – Graves playing during better goaltending or tighter defense – the numbers don't support that.

Hadfield, arguably, played against better goalies. To me, it's not arguable at all, Hadfield was against some of the most elite goalies in NHL history, but to each his or her own. Not arguable, however, Hadfield played in lower scoring than Graves. That's statistical fact. Feel free to expand and explain significantly better goal scorer? Comparing goals per season doesn't work even slightly for me, because Hadfield spent most of his career in 70 game seasons, where Graves had 82 and 84 game seasons. Huge advantage for Graves, not comparable at all. Was it Graves' career .36 goals per game to Hadfield's .31? That's marginal, at best. The goal scoring is close, but Hadfield played in a lower scoring era, imo against better goalies. And Hadfield still had more career points and better career points per game totals and, again, did so during an era of lower scoring. Hadfield's better career 16.2 shooting pct compared to Graves' 12.1 in a higher scoring era, simply indicates Graves shot a whole lot more. This makes sense because Hadfield was the better passer, who could score but would just as soon pass and create goals.

Not sure also on the tighter defense Graves had. Again, goal scoring was slightly higher when Graves played than when Hadfield played. During Graves NYR career, league wide goals per game were 6.03; during Hadfield's NYR career it was 5.99. I don't get the better goalie argument either for Graves. Hadfield played the majority of his career original 6 against Plante, Hall, Sawchuk, Bower, all extremely elite HOF goalies, the first three ranked top 5 all-time ahead of Brodeur on HoH forum, which I agree with. Even when Hadfield played a few seasons during early expansion, hall of famers Parent, Plante, Worsley, Esposito led the league 4 of those 6 seasons before Hadfield was traded with sub 2.00 GAA. It was an expansion from 6 to 12 teams, the goaltending was not really watered down or bad till the WHA merger diluted the league. That was long after Hadfield was retired.

Even when Hadfield played during his few early post-expansion seasons before he was traded in 74, the league was loaded with all-time top-tier HOF goalies: Dryden, Esposito, Parent, Cheevers, Worsley, Bower, Hall. The season Hadfield scored 50 goals and 106 points, 6 of the top 10 GAA leading goalies are HOFers: Worsley, Dryden, Cheevers, Parent, Plante and Tony Esposito leading the league at 1.77 GAA. Our own HOF goalie, Ed Giacomin, was outside the top 10 with a 2.70 that season. But 14 teams, 7 HOF goalies... that is not too shabby. And even some of the non-HOF goalies weren't chopped liver. There were guys like Rogie Vachon, who didn't make the Hall, but still posted 355 career wins against 291 losses playing then.

I love both guys. To each his own I suppose, but I'm still not seeing how Graves ends up ahead of someone when Graves had less career games played with NY, less points, lower regular season and playoff PPG numbers, and Hadfield had an all-time season comparable to Jagr's and was also the team's captain over some of the team's all-time best players.

 

[bernmeister]

Not sure I agree with calling Graves the significantly better goal scorer. Marginally better goal scorer in a higher scoring era, yes. The other two items – Graves playing during better goaltending or tighter defense – the numbers don't support that.

Hadfield, arguably, played against better goalies. To me, it's not arguable at all, Hadfield was against some of the most elite goalies in NHL history, but to each his or her own. Not arguable, however, Hadfield played in lower scoring than Graves. That's statistical fact. Feel free to expand and explain significantly better goal scorer? Comparing goals per season doesn't work even slightly for me, because Hadfield spent most of his career in 70 game seasons, where Graves had 82 and 84 game seasons. Huge advantage for Graves, not comparable at all. Was it Graves' career .36 goals per game to Hadfield's .31? That's marginal, at best. The goal scoring is close, but Hadfield played in a lower scoring era, imo against better goalies. And Hadfield still had more career points and better career points per game totals and, again, did so during an era of lower scoring. Hadfield's better career 16.2 shooting pct compared to Graves' 12.1 in a higher scoring era, simply indicates Graves shot a whole lot more. This makes sense because Hadfield was the better passer, who could score but would just as soon pass and create goals.

Not sure also on the tighter defense Graves had. Again, goal scoring was slightly higher when Graves played than when Hadfield played. During Graves NYR career, league wide goals per game were 6.03; during Hadfield's NYR career it was 5.99. I don't get the better goalie argument either for Graves. Hadfield played the majority of his career original 6 against Plante, Hall, Sawchuk, Bower, all extremely elite HOF goalies, the first three ranked top 5 all-time ahead of Brodeur on HoH forum, which I agree with. Even when Hadfield played a few seasons during early expansion, hall of famers Parent, Plante, Worsley, Esposito led the league 4 of those 6 seasons before Hadfield was traded with sub 2.00 GAA. It was an expansion from 6 to 12 teams, the goaltending was not really watered down or bad till the WHA merger diluted the league. That was long after Hadfield was retired.

Even when Hadfield played during his few early post-expansion seasons before he was traded in 74, the league was loaded with all-time top-tier HOF goalies: Dryden, Esposito, Parent, Cheevers, Worsley, Bower, Hall. The season Hadfield scored 50 goals and 106 points, 6 of the top 10 GAA leading goalies are HOFers: Worsley, Dryden, Cheevers, Parent, Plante and Tony Esposito leading the league at 1.77 GAA. Our own HOF goalie, Ed Giacomin, was outside the top 10 with a 2.70 that season. But 14 teams, 7 HOF goalies... that is not too shabby. And even some of the non-HOF goalies weren't chopped liver. There were guys like Rogie Vachon, who didn't make the Hall, but still posted 355 career wins against 291 losses playing then.

I love both guys. To each his own I suppose, but I'm still not seeing how Graves ends up ahead of someone when Graves had less career games played with NY, less points, lower regular season and playoff PPG numbers, and Hadfield had an all-time season comparable to Jagr's and was also the team's captain over some of the team's all-time best players.

Thank you for the wonderful trip down memory lane!

 

[bernmeister]

I feel much better about having Henry in my top 5 this round than Patrick. Where I stand right now:

Graves
Hadfield
Henry
Cook
Jagr

Patrick/Gartner

Vickers/Maloney

Beyond Patrick's dismal playoff resume, it bothers me that his best year was arguably the first year of the weak WWII era. Graves and Hadfield have grown on me. I really like the complete game they each played.

Where I stand right now:

Graves -Hadfield close to pick 'em for 1-2
Henry top 5, 3 sounds good to me
Cook top 5, 4 sounds good to me

here is where we break
Gartner
Vickers
Patrick
Jagr

won't penalize Gartner for being traded, over which he had no control.
Patrick I wanted higher but like was pointed out, his post season is WAAY off the cliff, still, he had good #s for the season. Jagr edges out Maloney, but goes no further. Not here long enough. Vickers here a while but not very long, splitting it between Gartner and Patrick.

 

[Cake or Death]

won't penalize Gartner for being traded, over which he had no control.
Patrick I wanted higher but like was pointed out, his post season is WAAY off the cliff, still, he had good #s for the season. Jagr edges out Maloney, but goes no further. Not here long enough. Vickers here a while but not very long, splitting it between Gartner and Patrick.

Not to be a pest, but it seems you are holding Jagr and Gartner to slightly different standards. To me, the team kind of forced them both out and if you don't penalize one for it, why penalize the other? Just curious

 

[Chief]

Sorry I haven't been posting much but a lot of things taking up my time this week. A few thoughts:

I give Graves the edge over Hadfield (and others) because for most of his Ranger career Graves was the top goalscoring winger on his teams. Hadfield wasn't. I put more importance on goals than assists when it comes to wingers but, if we're looking at assists, Hadfield had Gilbert for his whole career, who just happened to be good enough to be #3 on this
list. Graves didn't play with anyone who will make this list other than maybe Gartner for a couple of seasons. And let's not forget Graves was a big part of the Stanley Cup run. Hadfield, although a productive player in the PO's has no ring. When you splitting hairs, that gets taken
into consideration IMHO.

Bun Cook is not in my top 10. I look at him as someone who was fortunate to play with the #1 center and #1 winger in our lists.

 

[Cake or Death]

Sorry I haven't been posting much but a lot of things taking up my time this week. A few thoughts:

I give Graves the edge over Hadfield (and others) because for most of his Ranger career Graves was the top goalscoring winger on his teams. Hadfield wasn't. I put more importance on goals than assists when it comes to wingers but, if we're looking at assists, Hadfield had Gilbert for his whole career, who just happened to be good enough to be #3 on this list. Graves didn't play with anyone who will make this list other than maybe Gartner for a couple of seasons. And let's not forget Graves was a big part of the Stanley Cup run. Hadfield, although a productive player in the PO's has no ring. When you splitting hairs, that gets taken
into consideration IMHO.

Bun Cook is not in my top 10. I look at him as someone who was fortunate to play with the #1 center and #1 winger in our lists.

I can agree with putting more importance on goals than assists: I do the same. So I can buy that reasoning. But saying Cook or Hadfield benefited by having great line mates, and not applying the same reasoning to Graves seems crazy to me. Also, saying "Graves didn't play with anyone who will make this list other than maybe Gartner" is pretty selective. I just watched games this past week from 91-92, 93-94, 97-98. Graves was playing with guys from other lists: Leetch and Zubov on the PP, and centered by Messier, Gretzky and Lafontaine the three games I watched. Graves was getting prime even and PP time with some of the best NYR of all-time. Funniest thing about the 97-98 game I watched, Colin Campbell was our coach and Tom Renney was coaching the Canucks lol. Renney would that season be replaced by Mike Keenan.

Anyway, for Graves, when you're flanked by three HOF centers, two of them being the top 2 scorers in NHL history, along with a 1,000 point HOF defenseman, you'll notch some goals. That Graves couldn't rack up more assists and a lot more points with those guys, and only once was one of the team's top three point guys to Hadfield doing it 3 times and Bun Cook doing it 7 times, could be a case against Graves. And I personally have Bun Cook well ahead of both Hadfield and Graves. Though I think with all of Graves, Bun Cook and Hadfield, while they were not the most prolific scorers on their teams, all three were all absolute warriors and total package players. I mean the book on Bun is that he played such a reckless crazy physical game that he took years off his career. And Bun Cook wasn't exactly being carried out there offensively, the dude carried his weight on scoring...

26-27 pts: Bill 37, Boucher 28, Bun 23
27-28 pts: Boucher 35, Bun 28, Bill 24
28-29 pts: Boucher 26, Bill 23, Bun 18
29-30 pts: Boucher 62, Bill 59, Bun 42
30-31 pts: Bill 42, Boucher 39, Bun 35
31-32 pts: Bill 48, Boucher 35, Bun 34
32-33 pts: Bill 50, Bun 37, Boucher 35
33-34 pts: Boucher 44, Bun 33, Bill 26
34-35 pts: Boucher 45, Bill 36, Bun 34

Bun was the third best player of those three, but according to our own voting, the same is true of every other forward in NYR history, as Boucher and Bill Cook are number one overall at C and wing. The fact that Bun was pretty much right in there with both guys in points is a testament to how good he was. Graves, in contrast, who you have well ahead of Bun, was generally much farther behind the top point scorers on the NYR teams he played on. And Graves never had to lead the team in goals going against the NYR all-time best wing or center, which is what Bun was up against. There's nothing in the any history I can find that indicates Bun was carried by the other two, only words coining them a great line, all three excellent and lethal together. For what it's worth and to put it in further perspective looking at Bun Cook and Graves, here is the average era adjusted points per season of a few guys:

Bill Cook: 83
Bathgate: 78
Bun Cook: 77
Dillon: 69
Gilbert: 65
Graves: 52

I can grasp Graves over Hadfield, I cannot grasp either guy mentioned in the same breath as Bun Cook. But that's just me.

 

[bernmeister]

Not to be a pest, but it seems you are holding Jagr and Gartner to slightly different standards. To me, the team kind of forced them both out and if you don't penalize one for it, why penalize the other? Just curious

Never a pest with a cordial inquiry as yours, we band of brothers remembering from Old School.

Not a lot of time now but before I forget, briefly, no uneven penalty on Jagr.

Gartner was in/near his prime and traded, IMO a wrong move but that is btp, and a short tenure with us.

Jagr was acquired toward the beginning of the end of his career and was not here too long either.

No longer a good fit, supposedly, Slats thought.

Just prefered Garts for what he did during his time.

Did not weigh exactly uneven amount of time vs the other, in fact helped more a more similar comparison.

Like Garts match up as a player vs. Jagr.

basically that's it.

 

[Greg02]

Bern, I just don't see the case for Gartner. You can't really give either credit for what they did not do (and that's stick with the team long term, and any results they might have generated had they done so) even if it wasn't their fault.

Now, I'll concede to being a pretty big Jagr fan, and I'll also happily admit that I'm a kid and Mike Gartner was before my time. That said, the statistics play out pretty clearly to me. JJ was either the best or second best player in the league for a season. He was clearly the best player on the team while he was here (with the possible exception of Henrik Lundqvist at a few points). His worst full season in blue he put up 71 points; Gartner's best was good for 81. If you like adjusted stats, his best season here he's outscored by Jagr's worst. As far as I can tell, he's not known for being very physical or a great defender. Do you really think an extra almost-season of longevity and preferring his playing style is enough to close the gap of Jagr still managing to outpoint Gartner in his Rangers career (319 vs 298 if my mental math is right), a Pearson, a Hart runner up, a 1AST, and a Rangers captaincy?

 

[Chief]

Graves, in contrast, who you have well ahead of Bun, was generally much farther behind the top point scorers on the NYR teams he played on.

True, but if your placing more emphasis on goal scoring then why doesn't the fact that Graves led the tam in goal scoring 4 times matter more to you? Hadfield and Bun cann't make that claim.

For what it's worth and to put it in further perspective looking at Bun Cook and Graves, here is the average era adjusted points per season of a few guys:

Bill Cook: 83
Bathgate: 78
Bun Cook: 77
Dillon: 69
Gilbert: 65
Graves: 52

Adjusted stats can be useful to compare players of the same era, and to give you a point of reference for their place in the game back when they played. I don't believe they should be used as a comparison of players from different eras. I don't believe Bun would have scored 77 goals the season Graves scored 52. The fact is only one of those guys in the list above actually scored the goals attributed to them and that's Graves.