Round 2, Vote 2 (HFNYR Top NYR Wingers All-Time)

[Crease]

Before we begin, just a recap on how Round 2, Vote 2 will operate:

Round 2 Vote 2

• The remaining 5 players from Round 2 Vote 1 will be combined with the next 5 ranked players from the aggregate list
• Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias
• Voters will rank their top 8 of the available wingers
• The top 5 vote getters will be added to the final list in order.

These might be tweaked to allow longer or shorter debating periods depending on how the process moves along.

Additionally, there are a couple guidelines we'd ask that everyone agree to abide by:

• Please try to stay on-topic in the thread
• Please remember that this is a debate on opinions and there is no right or wrong. Please try to avoid words like "stupid" "dumb" "wrong" "sophistry" etc. when debating.
• Please treat other debaters with respect
• Please don't be a wallflower. All eligible voters are VERY HIGHLY encouraged to be active participants in the debate.
• Please maintain an open mind. The purpose of the debate is to convince others that your views are more valid. If nobody is willing to accept their opinions as flexible there really is no point in debating.

Eliglible Voters (7):
bernmeister, Cake or Death, Chief, Crease, Greg02, mike14, Ratelleitlikeitis

All posters are encouraged to participate in the debates and discussions, but only those listed above will be eligible for the final votes. Eligible voters submitted a ranked list of 20 wingers before the deadline specified in the preliminary discussion thread.

Finally, I want to say thank you for an excellent job with Round 2, Vote 1. The results are posted. Comments are welcome. We are in the homestretch of this project.

Click to read more...

 

[Crease]

Vote 2 discussion will begin now and will run through Friday 1/24. Any extension to this time frame will be announced prior to the deadline. Votes must be submitted no later than Midnight on Friday 1/24. THESE DEADLINES ARE SUBJECT TO CHANGE SO PLEASE READ THROUGH THE ENTIRE THREAD.

Please PM votes to me, beginning on Wednesday 1/22. I will be sending out confirmations when I receive ballots from the voters. Any voter who does not get a confirmation within 24 hours of submitting a ballot should assume I never received it and should either resubmit it or contact me to arrange a different method to submit the ballots.

PLEASE NOTE THAT YOU WILL VOTE FOR YOUR TOP 8 OUT OF THE POOL OF ELIGIBLE PLAYERS.

Vote 2 will be for places 6 through 10 on the Top 10 list.

Here are the candidates, listed alphabetically:

Bun Cook
Mike Gartner
Adam Graves
Vic Hadfield
Camille Henry
Jaromir Jagr
Don Maloney
Bob Nevin
Lynn Patrick
Steve Vickers

 

[Chief]

Although being in the top 10 for an O6 team like the Rangers is a great accomplishment - and I trust Graves will wind up in the Top 10 - I believe that Graves not being in the Top 5 is the biggest snub from the Top 10's we've done so far.

Graves:

Set the single season record for most goals by a Ranger in a season with 52.

Had 4 seasons where he led the Rangers in goal-scoring.

Over a 9 year period he averaged 32 goals.

Number 2 in career goal scoring for Rangers wingers.

Top 10 on the Rangers career list among wingers in assists and points as well.

Productive in the playoffs and played a key roll in the Rangers Stanley Cup run.

Team MVP twice.

Played great defense and was a physical presence.

He'll be topping this round's list for me and I hope I'm not alone.

 

[Greg02]

Chief, absolute numbers like that don't provide a convincing argument (in my opinion at least) because you need to compare between eras where scoring differs and length of seasons change.

What Graves did was great, but I don't think it was a snub at all.

 

[Cake or Death]

Although being in the top 10 for an O6 team like the Rangers is a great accomplishment - and I trust Graves will wind up in the Top 10 - I believe that Graves not being in the Top 5 is the biggest snub from the Top 10's we've done so far.

Different eras had much different levels of goal scoring, and Graves' time in NY was the tail end of the highest scoring eras in NHL history. 1928 has a league average 3.80 goals per game, 1998 has 5.28. Massive difference in quantity of goals scored. Likewise, some eras had only some of the primary assists awarded and no secondary assists at all. In Graves' NYR days, average assists awarded per goal were like 1.6 compared to, say, 0.5 when the Cooks played. This is why there are adjusted stats: to help give fairly realistic comparison between eras. In adjusted numbers, Graves does not stack up too well. Even in non-adjusted numbers Bun Cook still scored more goals per game and was a very physical player, too. I love Graves, one of my all-time favorite players, but I'm not gonna slight players that had superior careers or overlook major differences in different eras.

Honestly, the only real snub, and it is a disgrace by this organization, is that much better NY Rangers than Graves don't have their numbers hanging in place of his.

 

[Ratelleitlikeitis]

Agree completely with the overlooked players from the past. The Leafs have 15 retired or honoured numbers, An idea I really like. The Bruins have 10, Wings have 9 and Hawks have 7. We have 8 I believe. To continue to build history and connections with past eras, management needs to recognize in my opinion the contributions made to this franchise by Jean Ratelle, Brad Park, Vic Hadfield. Certainly past greats who are no longer living need to be identified and remembered as well, but it's high time for these hockey heroes to receive recognition in the place they starred for years.

 

[Crease]

Number of 1st, 2nd, and 3rd All-Star Teams. 3rd All-Star Teams are unofficial but come from the same voting data as 1st and 2nd All-Star Teams.

| 1ST AST | 2nd AST | 3rd AST
Bun Cook | | 1 | 1
Mike Gartner | | |
Adam Graves | | 1 |
Vic Hadfield | | 1 | 1
Camille Henry | | 1 | 1
Jaromir Jagr | 1 | |
Don Maloney | | |
Bob Nevin | | | 1
Lynn Patrick | 1 | 2 |
Steve Vickers | | 1 |

 

[Crease]

GVsX: Goals Versus "Best Non-Outlier Performance"

Piggybacking off of some of the excellent work in the ATD section of HFBoards, I created a goal-scoring benchmark for each season dating back to 1927. It's called GVsX, or "Goals versus X", where X is the best non-outlier performance that season. Generally it will be the second or third place goal scorer. The aim was to be able to gauge the impressiveness of our wingers' goal scoring in a particular season or stretch of seasons.

Step 1 was to create the benchmark for each particular season. Simply put, it is the best non-outlier performance of that season. The methodology:

1. First preference is to use the #2 scorer

2. If #3 goals/#2 goals < .90, I use the #3 scorer, unless...

3. There is a gap of greater than 10% anywhere else in the top-5 - following the same method as above: [small #]/[large #] < .90.

At that point, I take the first gap, and identify the upper outlier group (top 3 or 4 or 5 above which the gap occurs), and then go down into the scoring table until I reach a number of players which equals: [size of outlier group] * 2. The benchmark is set as an average of the scoring of these players.

Examples of the methodology:

1. 1993-1994

The top of the goal scoring table is...

1. Bure - 60
2. Hull - 57
3. Fedorov - 56
4. Andreychuk - 53
5. Graves - 52
5. Shanahan - 52
5. Sheppard - 52

Brett Hull is in second place on the goal scorer's table with 57 goals. There are no gaps of greater than 10% in the rest of the top-5, so Hull's 57 is used as the benchmark.

2. 1926-1927

The top of the goal scoring table is...

1. Bill Cook - 33
2. Dye - 25
2. Morenz - 25
4. Burch - 19
5. Fredrickson - 18
5. Irvin - 18
5. Oliver - 18

There is a tie at #2, but there is a 24% gap between them and the #4 goal scorer. The outlier group is the top three, so we average the goal scoring of the top six to set our benchmark, which ends up being 23 goals - a completely artificial number.

Results for each year are posted here.

Step 2 was simply a matter of calculating our winger's single-season goal total as a percent of that season's benchmark.

Examples of the methodology:

1. 1993-1994

Adam Graves Total: 52
Benchmark: 57
52/57 = 0.91, or 9% behind the best non-outlier performance

2. 2. 1926-1927

Bun Cook Total:14
Benchmark: 23
14/23 = 0.61, or 39% behind the best non-outlier performance

Here are the results. I bolded exceptional results, which I defined as within 25% of the best non-outlier performance.

Season | Cook | Gartner | Graves | Hadfield | Henry | Jagr | Maloney | Nevin | Patrick | Vickers
1 | 0.61 | | | 0.09 | 0.83 | | 0.17 | | 0.41 | 0.63
2 | 0.55 | | | 0.14 | 0.16 | | 0.45 | | 0.52 | 0.65
3 | 0.72 | | | 0.41 | 0.42 | | 0.5 | | 0.36 | 0.77
4 | 0.59 | | | 0.62 | 0.97 | | 0.34 | | 0.65 | 0.54
5 | 0.66 | | 0.51 | 0.5 | 0.7 | | 0.44 | | 0.36 | 0.39
6 | 0.5 | | 0.52 | 0.42 | 0.32 | | 0.43 | | 0.55 | 0.36
7 | 0.92 | | 0.91 | 0.53 | 0.82 | | 0.19 | 0.55 | 0.91 | 0.25
8 | 0.82 | | 0.53 | 0.53 | 0.66 | | 0.18 | 0.91 | 1.33 | 0.52
9 | 0.59 | | 0.4 | 0.48 | 1.12 | | 0.33 | 0.65 | 0.73 | 0.33
10 | 0.19 | | 0.65 | 0.5 | 0.78 | | 0.21 | 0.74 | | 0.14
11 | | | 0.5 | 1 | 0.76 | | | 0.63 | |
12 | | 0.96 | 0.86 | 0.59 | | | | 0.43 | |
13 | | 0.78 | 0.52 | 0.52 | | | | 0.48 | |
14 | | 0.65 | 0.2 | | | | | | |
15 | | 0.6 | | | | 1 | | | |
16 | | | | | | 0.6 | | | |
17 | | | | | | 0.48 | | | |
Career | 0.62 | 0.75 | 0.56 | 0.49 | 0.69 | 0.69 | 0.32 | 0.63 | 0.65 | 0.46

Notes:

* Excludes partial seasons, for example Mike Gartner scored 11 goals in 12 games after the Dahlen trade. Jaromir Jagr scored 15 goals in 31 games after the Carter trade.
* The metric is not perfect. It accounts only for Regular Season. It accounts only for Goals. But I thought it would be something interesting to look at, and different from AST finishes and Top-10 finishes, which have their own sets of faults.
* The last row calculates the average for their Rangers career, and supports the narrative that Camille Henry and Mike Gartner were consistent and excellent scorers.
* Camille Henry (1963) and Lynn Patrick (1942) each had an outlier performance
* Jaromir Jagr (2006) and Vic Hadfield (1972) each had a best non-outlier performance
* Camille Henry has the most seasons within 25% of the best non-outlier performance with six.
* Mike Gartner has the highest career average with 0.75

 

[Crease]

GVsX, but for our Top 5 from the previous vote:

Season | Cook | Bathgate | Gilbert | Hextall | Dillon
1 | 1.43 | 0.63 | 0.3 | 0.74 | 0.82
2 | 0.71 | 0.57 | 0.71 | 0.9 | 0.88
3 | 0.83 | 0.82 | 0.86 | 1.09 | 0.59
4 | 0.71 | 0.91 | 0.31 | 1.19 | 1.14
5 | 1.1 | 1.07 | 0.9 | 1 | 0.86
6 | 1.21 | 0.76 | 0.76 | 0.9 | 0.91
7 | 1.17 | 0.83 | 0.57 | 0.58 | 0.91
8 | 0.59 | 0.85 | 0.38 | | 0.54
9 | 0.95 | 0.95 | 0.68 | |
10 | 0.33 | 0.56 | 0.86 | |
11 | | | 0.53 | |
12 | | | 0.69 | |
13 | | | 0.68 | |
14 | | | 0.64 | |
15 | | | 0.48 | |
Career | 0.9 | 0.8 | 0.62 | 0.91 | 0.83

 

[Cake or Death]

My round two vote is sent in.

 

[bernmeister]

My round two vote is sent in.

Care to share?
If on the qt, pls send me a pm.

Thanks.
Still mulling it over.

 

[bernmeister]

So, Crease said:

PLEASE NOTE THAT YOU WILL VOTE FOR YOUR TOP 8 OUT OF THE POOL OF ELIGIBLE PLAYERS.

Vote 2 will be for places 6 through 10 on the Top 10 list.

Here are the candidates, listed alphabetically:

Bun Cook
Mike Gartner
Adam Graves
Vic Hadfield
Camille Henry
Jaromir Jagr
Don Maloney
Bob Nevin
Lynn Patrick
Steve Vickers

So, if I'm keeping correct w/this, we need to generate 5 candidates for nos 6-10, but only the big 3 are the finalists at #s 6, 7 and 8.

continuing...

 

[bernmeister]

A working list of 5 top names, not yet ranking them in order

Bun Cook prob
Mike Gartner likely
Adam Graves def
Vic Hadfield maybe
Camille Henry def
Jaromir Jagr possibly - not here long enough hurts
Don Maloney on the bubble
Bob Nevin close but no cigar
Lynn Patrick impulse to say Yes to the great Patrick name.
Steve Vickers on the bubble


these are first impressions.
Comments welcome.

 

[Crease]

Whats the difference between Gartner and Jagr? Both had short terms. Jagr had the higher peak and is remembered for rejuvenating the franchise. Gartner was here slightly longer and was the more consistent goalscorer of the two.

 

[Crease]

So, Crease said:



So, if I'm keeping correct w/this, we need to generate 5 candidates for nos 6-10, but only the big 3 are the finalists at #s 6, 7 and 8.

continuing...

What do you mean by this? Anyone from the list in Post #2 is eligible for spots 6-10 on the final list. Our job this round is simply to rank the top 8 from the list in Post #2.

 

[Cake or Death]

Whats the difference between Gartner and Jagr? Both had short terms. Jagr had the higher peak and is remembered for rejuvenating the franchise. Gartner was here slightly longer and was the more consistent goalscorer of the two.

Regular season and playoffs, Jagr was far more able to carry the scoring on his back and impose his will on the opponent. I am pretty fair about things and not a crazy homer, but nothing will ever change my view that Jagr got royally screwed out of a Hart that year.

 

[Crease]

Regular season and playoffs, Jagr was far more able to carry the scoring on his back and impose his will on the opponent. I am pretty fair about things and not a crazy homer, but nothing will ever change my view that Jagr got royally screwed out of a Hart that year.

In the eyes of the voters, Thornton had a better year 5v5. Remarkable season by Jagr though.

 

[Cake or Death]

So, if I'm keeping correct w/this, we need to generate 5 candidates for nos 6-10, but only the big 3 are the finalists at #s 6, 7 and 8.

My understanding is that you're ranking the top 8 of these 10:

Bun Cook
Mike Gartner
Adam Graves
Vic Hadfield
Camille Henry
Jaromir Jagr
Don Maloney
Bob Nevin
Lynn Patrick
Steve Vickers

Regarding you asking who I voted for, being forced to select from these players is not something I had an easy time with as I had three of these guys outside my own top 15. In any event, I'd prefer not to divulge my results as I don't want to sway other people. If someone feels I placed someone to low or high, they can counter vote to move people up or down. I'd prefer voters just place guys where they think they belong

 

[Crease]

My understanding is that you're ranking the top 8 of these 10:

Bun Cook
Mike Gartner
Adam Graves
Vic Hadfield
Camille Henry
Jaromir Jagr
Don Maloney
Bob Nevin
Lynn Patrick
Steve Vickers

Regarding you asking who I voted for, being forced to select from these players is not something I had an easy time with as I had three of these guys outside my own top 15. In any event, I'd prefer not to divulge my results as I don't want to sway other people. If someone feels I placed someone to low or high, they can counter vote to move people up or down. I'd prefer voters just place guys where they think they belong

I'd be interesting to hear some of the arguments you have for players in your Top 10 that may not be in mine. Particularly, did anyone new this round make your final list? And why?

 

[Cake or Death]

In the eyes of the voters, Thornton had a better year 5v5. Remarkable season by Jagr though.

Really? Thornton had 29 total goals that season, Jagr had 30 just at even strength. When selecting the most valuable player to their team, did they also forget Thornton's 1/4 of his season in Boston? Or the fact that his game elevated when he joined a very good San Jose team that had finished 3rd in the league the prior season? Yes, he led SJ back to dominance, where they went from 3rd overall in the league w/o Thornton and ended 11th overall with him, one point behind the Rangers. Joking aside, look at the change both teams experienced:

SJ went from 43-21-12-6 104 pts (3rd) without Thornton to 44-27-11 99 pts (11th) with Thornton

NYR went from 27-40-7-8 69 pts (25th) without Jagr to 44-26-12 100 pts (10th) with Jagr

That is huge. Or, better yet, you could just watch both guys play that season. To me, Jagr was more dominant and simply better. His ability to play make at a high level or be able to score himself was huge. Not taking anything away from Thornton: he was exceptional that season. But he took a team that was already really good and they ended up doing about their status quo. Jagr was more dominant, massively improved a team that was lousy to finishing ahead of SJ, and if a goal was needed Jagr could set it up or score the goal himself. More ES goals than Thornton had total goals that season.

Nothing will change my opinion that Jagr got royally screwed.

 

[Cake or Death]

I'd be interesting to hear some of the arguments you have for players in your Top 10 that may not be in mine. Particularly, did anyone new this round make your final list? And why?

My personal rating system is done on: individual awards won, 1st AST, 2nd AST, adjusted career points, adjusted average points per season, adj 3-5 consecutive season peak, total years played in NY, league leader percentages, career playoff PPG increase/decrease from regular season, number of years in playoffs, defensive ability, checking, 3 points added to player for HOF inclusion, 1 point added for each Cup as this was more of a team award to me.

I tried to make this balanced, so it awarded guys who had great peaks but also gave big credit to guys with long tenures. I era adjusted to have fairness across the board. I took career playoff performance into account. I gave some decent weight to defense, checking and physical play, to give credit in these areas to guys like Prentice, Graves, Hadfield, etc.

IDK man, without seeing every guy play, and trying to account for different eras, with different rules, different quality of teams around them, and different a lot of things, it is not easy to find a balance that is fair to all eras and does an equitable job. But I did my best to try to get as close to that idea as I could.

 

[Chief]

In the eyes of the voters, Thornton had a better year 5v5. Remarkable season by Jagr though.

Jagr did win the Pearson Award that year, voted on by the players and in this case the players got it right.

I have to believe that some of the Hart voters had an axe to grind with Jagr - who had the huge contract and coach killer rep in Washington. Jagr was far more dominant that season - and I don't need a Hart Trophy to tell me that.

 

[bernmeister]

What do you mean by this? Anyone from the list in Post #2 is eligible for spots 6-10 on the final list. Our job this round is simply to rank the top 8 from the list in Post #2.

Apologies Crease.
I need a vacation.

I will select 8 from the 10 names mentioned.
You do the compiling.

Many thanks.

 

[Crease]

Does anyone want to make a push for Lynn Patrick in the top 5 this round? His playoff resume is dismal. Fall-off-the-face-of-the-Earth dismal.

I like Graves, Jagr, Hadfield, Henry, and Cook over him. Maybe even Nevins.

 

[bernmeister]

Whats the difference between Gartner and Jagr? Both had short terms. Jagr had the higher peak and is remembered for rejuvenating the franchise. Gartner was here slightly longer and was the more consistent goalscorer of the two.

Not always possible, but to extent possible I am trying to weigh more heavily on contributions while they were a Ranger.

No dis on Jagr, but he was here towards the end of a brilliant career still in what are unarguably the final stage. End of the middle, beginning of the end, what ever ya wanna call it. No complaints on his production, and even saying that was not a great team.

Gartner, I would not have traded, was comparable shooter (overall), much faster, also better defender. Had a better look at him around his prime while he was here.

Not saying who is the better guy all time,
Saying considering how each performed when here, if I could choose only 1 of the 2, my pick is Gartner.

Not extremely scientific on this one.
Saw them both, liked them both, mostly.
Liked gartner better.
That's all.