Round 2, Vote 2 (HFNYR Top Centers)

[Crease]

Before we begin, just a recap on how Round 2 will operate:

Round 2

• Players ranked 6 through 14 from the aggregate list will be posted in a thread
• Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias
• Voters will rank their top 7 of the available centers
• Final results will be posted and the top 5 vote getters will be added to the final list in order.

These might be tweaked to allow longer or shorter debating periods depending on how the process moves along.

Additionally, there are a couple guidelines we'd ask that everyone agree to abide by:

• Please try to stay on-topic in the thread
• Please remember that this is a debate on opinions and there is no right or wrong. Please try to avoid words like "stupid" "dumb" "wrong" "sophistry" etc. when debating.
• Please treat other debaters with respect
• Please don't be a wallflower. All eligible voters are VERY HIGHLY encouraged to be active participants in the debate.
• Please maintain an open mind. The purpose of the debate is to convince others that your views are more valid. If nobody is willing to accept their opinions as flexible there really is no point in debating.

Eliglible Voters (8):
bernmeister, Cake or Death, Chief, Crease, Greg02, mike14, Ratelleitlikeitis, Richter Scale

All posters are encouraged to participate in the debates and discussions, but only those listed above will be eligible for the final votes. Anyone else who wishes to participate will have until the start of Round 2, Vote 2 to get their list in. Once Vote 2 begins, no additional lists will be accepted.

Click to read more...

 

[Crease]

Vote 2 will begin now and ballots are due by 5pm EST on Saturday, May 25. You may PM your ballot beginning on Wednesday, May 22nd.

I will be sending out confirmations when I receive ballots from the voters. Any voter who does not get a confirmation within 24 hours of submitting a ballot should assume I never received it and should either resubmit it or contact me to arrange a different method to submit the ballots.

Please note that you are ranking 7 of 9 candidates this time.

Vote 2 will be for places 6 through 10 on the Top 10 list.

Here are the candidates, listed alphabetically:

Ron Duguay
Phil Esposito
Wayne Gretzky
Phil Goyette
Edgar Laprade
Buddy O'Connor
Don Raleigh
Clint Smith
Walt Tkaczuk

 

[bernmeister]

Vote 2 will begin now and debates are scheduled to run through Saturday, May 24. You may PM votes to me starting on Wednesday, May 22nd.

I will be sending out confirmations when I receive ballots from the voters. Any voter who does not get a confirmation within 24 hours of submitting a ballot should assume I never received it and should either resubmit it or contact me to arrange a different method to submit the ballots.

Please note that you are ranking 8 of 10 candidates this time.

Vote 2 will be for places 6 through 10 on the Top 10 list.

Here are the candidates, listed alphabetically:

Ron Duguay
Phil Esposito
Wayne Gretzky
Phil Goyette
Camille Henry
Edgar Laprade
Buddy O'Connor
Don Raleigh
Clint Smith
Walt Tkaczuk

Crease, thanks again for the bangup terrific job on this.

PS Do I correctly understand you to mean this is through Friday, May 24 inclusive?

If so, no need to maintain this post, just correct the date above.
If I missed something, feel free to pm me.

 

[bernmeister]

Vote 2 will begin now and debates are scheduled to run through Saturday, May 24. You may PM votes to me starting on Wednesday, May 22nd.

I will be sending out confirmations when I receive ballots from the voters. Any voter who does not get a confirmation within 24 hours of submitting a ballot should assume I never received it and should either resubmit it or contact me to arrange a different method to submit the ballots.

Please note that you are ranking 8 of 10 candidates this time.

Vote 2 will be for places 6 through 10 on the Top 10 list.

Here are the candidates, listed alphabetically:

Ron Duguay
Phil Esposito
Wayne Gretzky
Phil Goyette
Camille Henry
Edgar Laprade
Buddy O'Connor
Don Raleigh
Clint Smith
Walt Tkaczuk

Will hold off til some stats for the new entries are posted.

Clarification: we are basing Gretzky EXCLUSIVELY on his stats, etc, w/Rangers, yes? Thanks again in advance.

 

[Crease]

Bern, see the edit in my post. Thanks for the heads up.

And yes, we should be considering performance as a Ranger only.

 

[Greg02]

Vote 2 will begin now and debates are scheduled to run through Saturday, May 24. You may PM votes to me starting on Wednesday, May 22nd.

I will be sending out confirmations when I receive ballots from the voters. Any voter who does not get a confirmation within 24 hours of submitting a ballot should assume I never received it and should either resubmit it or contact me to arrange a different method to submit the ballots.

Please note that you are ranking 8 of 10 candidates this time.

Vote 2 will be for places 6 through 10 on the Top 10 list.

Here are the candidates, listed alphabetically:

Ron Duguay
Phil Esposito
Wayne Gretzky
Phil Goyette
Camille Henry
Edgar Laprade
Buddy O'Connor
Don Raleigh
Clint Smith
Walt Tkaczuk

Thanks again, Mike. I'm really having a lot of fun with this project.

Obviously we have five returnees and five newcomers. Our new candidates are Edgar Laprade, Camille Henry, Phil Goyette, Wayne Gretzky, and Ron Duguay.

Edgar Laprade is considered by some to be the worst Hockey Hall of Fame selection of all time. He (and Clint Smith, who is also up there) were inducted by the Veteran's Committee, which has since been disbanded (probably due to awful inductions like Edgar Laprade and Clint Smith). Regardless, Laprade should easily be top 10, and in my opinion should be fifth.

Laprade was one of the few bright spots during the awful mid 40s to early 50s period. He was a two time Rangers MVP and was consistently near the top of team scoring. More than that, however, he was considered to be one of the best defensive forwards ever- it wasn't his scoring that really got him inducted into the hall of fame (although you can argue his pre-NHL accomplishments contributed to that). The couple times he was in the playoffs, he pulled his weight.

To me, he's very comparable to Walt Tkaczuk. Not quite as strong in the longevity department, but it seems like his defense was even better and he has more accolades.

 

[Greg02]

[TABLE="head;title=list"]First | Last | Years | GP | G | A | PTS | PPG | Playoffs GP | PO/PTS | PO/PPG | Notes
Walt|Tkaczuk|14|945|227|451|678|0.717|93|51|0.548|All Star; 1X T10 Assists; 1X T10 Points
Edgar|Laprade|10|500|108|172|280|0.56|18|13|0.722|HHOF; 4X All Star; Calder; 1X Lady Byng; 1X T10 Assists
Camille|Henry|12|637|256|222|478|0.75|22|10|0.455|3X All Star; Calder; 1X Lady Byng; 1X 2AST; 6X T10 Goals
Buddy|O'Connor|4|238|62|102|164|0.689|18|11|0.611|HHOF; All Star; 1X Hart; 1X Lady Byng; 1X 2AST; 1X T10 Goals; 2X T10 Assists; 1X T10 Points
Clint|Smith|7|281|80|115|195|0.694|29|9|0.31|HHOF; 1X Lady Byng; 1X SC; 1X T10 Goals; 1X T10 Assists; 2X T10 Points
Phil|Esposito|6|422|184|220|404|0.957|30|27|0.9|HHOF; 3X All Star; 1X T10 Goals
Don|Raleigh|10|535|101|219|320|0.598|18|11|0.611|2X All Star; 1X T10 Assists; 1X T10 Points
Phil|Goyette|7|397|98|231|329|0.829|26|6|0.231|1X T10 Goals; 4X T10 Assists; 2X T10 Points
Wayne|Gretzky|3|234|57|192|249|1.064|15|20|1.333|HHOF; 3X All Star; 1X Lady Byng; 2X 2AST; 2X 1st in Assists; 3X T10 Assists; 2X T10 Points
Ron|Duguay|8|499|164|176|340|0.681|69|47|0.681|All Star
[/TABLE]

For some basic stats.

 

[mike14]

does anyone know a rough breakdown of how much time Camille spent on the wing compared to centre?

Starting to think that I have O'Connor too low. Only 4 seasons (I'm big on tenure such is why I have Tkazcuk so high), but 11th in league scoring and 6th amongst centers, plus the Hart means he might have to bump someone off

 

[Crease]

does anyone know a rough breakdown of how much time Camille spent on the wing compared to centre?

Hockey-Reference has him listed as Center but now that you've mentioned it, every article I've come across has him listed as "winger" or "left-wing".

 

[mike14]

Hockey-Reference has him listed as Center but now that you've mentioned it, every article I've come across has him listed as "winger" or "left-wing".

and to make it even more confusing, Hockey-Reference lists him as a LW/C when you do a comparison search. Makes it very hard to rate him as a C IMO, especially as everywhere else lists him as a winger.

Long shot, but did anyone see him play?

 

[Greg02]

Here's my current thoughts:

Edgar Laprade
Walt Tkaczuk
Camille Henry*
Buddy O'Connor
Phil Esposito
Don Raleigh
Clint Smith
Phil Goyette
Wayne Gretzky
Ron Duguay

*Assuming we're considering Camille as a center

I already posted my thoughts about Laprade. I think Henry* vs Tkaczuk is something to really think about, and I'd be very interested in hearing thought processes. I keep my opinion that O'Connor's peak outweighs Esposito's relative longevity. Smith has continued falling in my mind; I don't think he has a place on this list. I don't know very much about Goyette at all. Gretzky is clearly behind O'Connor and Esposito. Duguay seems like the easiest to leave off by far.

By the way, lots of awesome nicknames this round. The Beaver, The Great One, Snuffy, The Professor, Camille the Eel...

 

[mike14]

Here's my current thoughts:

Edgar Laprade
Walt Tkaczuk
Camille Henry*
Buddy O'Connor
Phil Esposito
Don Raleigh
Clint Smith
Phil Goyette
Wayne Gretzky
Ron Duguay

*Assuming we're considering Camille as a center

I already posted my thoughts about Laprade. I think Henry* vs Tkaczuk is something to really think about, and I'd be very interested in hearing thought processes. I keep my opinion that O'Connor's peak outweighs Esposito's relative longevity. Smith has continued falling in my mind; I don't think he has a place on this list. I don't know very much about Goyette at all. Gretzky is clearly behind O'Connor and Esposito. Duguay seems like the easiest to leave off by far.

By the way, lots of awesome nicknames this round. The Beaver, The Great One, Snuffy, The Professor, Camille the Eel...

I have Goyette higher than most (inside original top 10)

here's some info Crease posted in the original thread

Goyette seems like a good darkhorse candidate for the top 10.

Slick playmaker who spent the middle years of his career with the Rangers. Four of the six he was top 10 in the NHL in assists. Twice top ten in points. You're right though, complete non-factor in the playoffs.

According to this bio, Goyette was pivot between Don Marshall and Bob Nevin. Looks like both their numbers dipped dramatically in 1969/70 after Goyette was picked up by St. Louis (where he coincidently had his career year).

During his 6 seasons with the Rangers he was 2nd in team scoring, 14th in scoring in the NHL and 7th among centers. His playoffs were terrible, so if that's a strong indicator for you he'll slip. His PPG is behind only Gretz and Espo for the 10 players listed

 

[Greg02]

Thanks for the info.

He sounds a lot like Clint Smith- strong regular seasons, played a moderate number of seasons in NY, weak playoffs. Considering the tumble that Smith has been going through in my rankings since my original preliminary when I thought he was at five, I think Goyette will be pretty low on my final list.

 

[mike14]

Thanks for the info.

He sounds a lot like Clint Smith- strong regular seasons, played a moderate number of seasons in NY, weak playoffs. Considering the tumble that Smith has been going through in my rankings since my original preliminary when I thought he was at five, I think Goyette will be pretty low on my final list.

Yeah, team only won 2 playoffs game in 3 post seasons while he was with them (got swept by the Habs twice).

As you say, Camille v Tkaczuk is interesting. 12 seasons vs 14, similar-ish stats, with Camille coming out slightly ahead IMO, with the Calder pushing him out a bit further.

Having said that, playing almost 1000 games for the one team, and being a one team player is a great effort in its own right

 

[Cake or Death]

does anyone know a rough breakdown of how much time Camille spent on the wing compared to centre?

Starting to think that I have O'Connor too low. Only 4 seasons (I'm big on tenure such is why I have Tkazcuk so high), but 11th in league scoring and 6th amongst centers, plus the Hart means he might have to bump someone off

I actually just looked at all his old hockey cards (Parkhurt-OPC-Topps). He was only really listed as a center for his first two seasons. The whole of his career after that, he's typically listed on his hockey card as a wing, LW and in his latter career in NY also RW. Honestly, career-wise he looks more like a winger than a center...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1954-1955-T...t=US_Hockey_Trading_Cards&hash=item4d0533b615

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1957-58-TOP...5?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_210&hash=item5656857e95

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1958-59-TOP...3?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_210&hash=item565685fe27

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1967-Topps-...t=US_Hockey_Trading_Cards&hash=item2c6f1e3c92

 

[Crease]

Nice investigative work guys. Since it's become clear that Henry spent a majority of his Rangers career on the wing, I'm going to take him off the eligible list for Round 2, Vote 2. See below.

 

[Crease]

**ADMIN NOTE**

Camille Henry, winger, is off the eligible list for Round 2, Vote 2. You will now be expected to PM me your top 7 of the following 9 centers, in order. Ballots are due 5PM EST on Saturday, May 25. You may begin submitting your ballots on Wednesday, May 22. The candidates are:

Ron Duguay
Phil Esposito
Wayne Gretzky
Phil Goyette
Edgar Laprade
Buddy O'Connor
Don Raleigh
Clint Smith
Walt Tkaczuk

 

[Crease]

This is a look at average performance and peak performance as a Ranger, using adjusted points. The adjusted points are from Hockey-Reference, and are supposed to allow for apples-to-apples comparison of players from different eras. Please note that I excluded partial rookie seasons for Tkaczuk, Smith, and Raleigh. They would have skewed the averages.

Average Performance (using Adjusted Points)
[table="head;title=list"]Player | Seasons | GP | G | A | Pts | PPG
Walt Tkaczuk | 13 | 75 | 16 | 32 | 48 | 0.64
Phil Esposito | 6 | 70 | 26 | 32 | 58 | 0.83
Phil Goyette | 6 | 65 | 18 | 41 | 59 | 0.91
Clint Smith | 6 | 47 | 20 | 31 | 51 | 1.09
Ron Duguay | 8 | 62 | 17 | 18 | 35 | 0.56
Wayne Gretzky | 3 | 78 | 21 | 71 | 92 | 1.18
Don Raleigh | 9 | 58 | 14 | 34 | 48 | 0.83
Edgar Laprade | 10 | 50 | 13 | 25 | 38 | 0.76
Buddy O'Connor | 4 | 60 | 20 | 39 | 59 | 0.98
[/table]

Peak Performance (using Adjusted Points)
[table="head;title=list"]Player | Season | GP | G | A | Pts | PPG
Walt Tkaczuk | 1960-70 | 76 | 27 | 52 | 79 | 1.04
Phil Esposito | 1977-78 | 79 | 34 | 39 | 73 | 0.92
Phil Goyette | 1963-64 | 67 | 28 | 48 | 76 | 1.13
Clint Smith | 1938-39 | 48 | 36 | 37 | 73 | 1.52
Ron Duguay | 1981-82 | 80 | 26 | 37 | 63 | 0.79
Wayne Gretzky | 1997-98 | 82 | 26 | 77 | 103 | 1.26
Don Raleigh | 1951-52 | 70 | 22 | 54 | 76 | 1.09
Edgar Laprade | 1947-48 | 59 | 16 | 53 | 69 | 1.17
Buddy O'Connor | 1947-48 | 60 | 31 | 56 | 87 | 1.45
[/table]

A few preliminary thoughts:

Man, Gretzky even at 37 was an exceptional hockey player. I have fuzzy memories of his time spent in New York. I vividly remember his hat trick in the playoffs against the Florida Panthers. To do what he did at that age is something else.

Laprade and Tkaczuk look a lot closer on paper after comparing numbers adjusted for era. How was Laprade's two-way game? I get the feeling that Tkaczuk would have put up more points if he wasn't asked to take on a more defensive role behind the GAG line.

O'Connor and Smith had some seriously explosive seasons with the Rangers.

 

[Chief]

I have to admit I was a bit surprised by Gretzky's production as a Ranger. Other than that one playoff run and the hat trick v. the Panthers, my memory of Gretzky's tenure was mostly negative. I knew he was still racking up assists but his 90 points in his first season in 82 games is impressive.

The one thing that caught my eye was how he went from +12 that first season to -11 the next season, while still being over a point per game - 90 points in 82 games and -11. There were some real ugly minus ratings on that team. LaFontaine had 62 points in 67 games and was -16. Leetch scored 50 points and was -36! Ouch!

 

[Cake or Death]

Man, Gretzky even at 37 was an exceptional hockey player. I have fuzzy memories of his time spent in New York. I vividly remember his hat trick in the playoffs against the Florida Panthers. To do what he did at that age is something else.

It really is mind boggling. Final three seasons of his career and two 2nd AST and twice leads the league in assists. The guy was just silly.

 

[Greg02]

Laprade and Tkaczuk look a lot closer on paper after comparing numbers adjusted for era. How was Laprade's two-way game? I get the feeling that Tkaczuk would have put up more points if he wasn't asked to take on a more defensive role behind the GAG line.

Here's TheDevilMadeMe's summary of Laprade for the All Time Draft. Laprade is viewed as one of the premier two way centers in hockey's history.

Oh, and Gretzky was totally broken as a player. No doubt.

 

[Chief]

Thanks for the info.

He sounds a lot like Clint Smith- strong regular seasons, played a moderate number of seasons in NY, weak playoffs. Considering the tumble that Smith has been going through in my rankings since my original preliminary when I thought he was at five, I think Goyette will be pretty low on my final list.

The HHOF bio for Clint Smith has the following to say about him: "He was a mainstay with the Rangers the following year and became a key member of their 1940 Stanley Cup team." Granted it's only one line but are we being too harsh on Clint?

link: http://www.legendsofhockey.net/Lege...er.jsp?mem=p199104&type=Player&page=bio&list=

 

[Greg02]

http://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/NYR/1940.html

I just have trouble reconciling that one line with the statistics and the reality of him being let go because of poor playoff performances. I mean, only one forward on the team scored less than him, and he wasn't known for adding more beyond scoring.

 

[Greg02]

On another note, can you imagine people doing similar projects to this fifty years from now, when they'll have access to everything we said about the players as the game was going on? I can totally see people doing a top fifty Rangers defensemen of all time, reading our GDTs, and concluding that Michael Del Zotto was the worst player to ever lace them up.

 

[adam graves]

FWIW have been watching rangers since late 60s. Recall goyette - Nevin etc but the early 70s line was my early teen years (and we finally got cable!) so I knew every player, ever line.
Tkaczuk was a very underrated player, a fav of mine. Strong, not afraid to go to the dirty areas (you would never find ratelle there, although hadfield would drop em). Think Callahan and graves. He along with fairbairn (and eventually Vickers) were a great checking line, behind the GAG line (3rd line was stemkowski Irvine mcregor). Vivid recollections of fairbairn and Walt being amazing penalty killers, skating the puck back and forth rarely dumping it.

Loving this thread, thanks for letting me chime in.