Round 2, Vote 14 (HOH Top Centers)

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I don't really see why Nedomansky should be so far behind Petrov - inded, why he should be behind at all?

Good question

 

[seventieslord]

Foyston over Fredrickson and Keats? Why?

Hell Morris (who put up good stats but was rarely if ever considered a star) over Keats?

Primeau over Sedin? Is there any question that Sedin had a better peak? Did Primeau actually have more career value?

I'll leave the NHLers alone for the most part, other than to say that it seems pretty extreme to have Zetterberg #1 and Sedin not even on the list. I guess that's more a criticism of Zetterberg's high place than lack of Sedin

- isn't Foyston more of an all-around player, a very versatile multipositional guy, and pretty much unparalleled as a long-term playoff scorer in the era? I'll have to see a regular season comparison to see if Frederickson is better (by enough) to make up for that. (i assume he's better, otherwise you wouldn't take me to task over that?)

- who says Morris was rarely considered a star? PCHA all-star teams don't. And hey, I recognize Foyston's star power by putting him ahead of Morris, because Morris outscored him handily when they played together.

- I'll think about Primeau and Sedin... but Sedin ain't getting a vote from me. Keats would look just fine in my top-8.

- Zetterberg over Sedin by that much shouldn't surprise anyone. it's just something that some people will have to get used to. They are equals as point producers, with Zetterberg far better on the goals front. In addition, there is defense, leadership, playoffs and pretty much everything else. In fact, the only thing I can say in Sedin's favour in this comparison is that he is Zetterberg's equal as a point producer in the regular season by virtue of more assists.

 

[Sturminator]

Mickey MacKay Part II

So when we left MacKay, he had just had his jaw shattered late in the 1918-19 season, and missed the entirety of the 1919-20 PCHA season, instead electing to play in the Big-4, which was in my opinion sort of a minor professional league on the prairies. But it wasn't just MacKay's jaw that got busted in 1918-19, though. This season also marks the end of Cyclone Taylor's reign of terror in the coast league. After his rookie season, MacKay was probably shifted to rover, where he would have had a lot of defensive responsibilities, and fewer chances to score. On a team with Taylor leading the attack and other quality forwards like Gord Roberts, this makes sense. MacKay would return from his rehab to a team that now needed him to take on a bigger role.

1920-21: MacKay is 10th in PCHA scoring with 19 points, with Smokey Harris and Jack Adams leading the attack for Vancouver. He is listed as a 2nd team all-star at center this season, but was probably still a rover at this time. At any rate, this appears to be a mediocre season for MacKay.

1921-22: This season marks the beginning of MacKay's real offensive prime. He is listed as a 1st team all-star at rover, but was also second in PCHA scoring with 26 points, four points behind the leader, Jack Adams, who was his teammate. This appears to have been an outstanding season for MacKay. Even with help from a teammate, his scoring from the rover position this season was excellent by almost any standard. At any rate, MacKay was mentioned in glowing terms during this season in a very interesting article on the state of PCHA hockey:

17.1.1922 - Calgary Daily Herald:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=-g5kAAAAIBAJ&sjid=2XoNAAAAIBAJ&pg=1492,1787841&hl=en

Mickey MacKay, Vancouver's brilliant rover, Frank Foyston, Seattle flash, or Jack Walker, of hook check fame, another of Seattle's stars, which member of the trio is the nearest approach to the perfect hockey player? Or did the members of the old school when the Patricks were just breaking into the ice sport include among their number players who were regarded as the greatest the game has produced.

Fans around the coast hockey loop are once again discussing this interesting question and trying to solve the riddle of who in hockey today is the nearest approach to the perfect player. Last year a majority expressed the opinion that honors should go to Mickey MacKay, but there were hundreds who believed the crown should rest on Frank Foyston's brow. And not a few are out in favor of naming Jack Walker as the real leader. Walker's work during the past two years has been steady and at all times bordering on the sensational. Without him in the pivot position the Seattle Mets would appear like a ship without a rear paddle to direct its course.

The perfect hockey player, like the perfect woman, is a hard bird to find. But hockey folks will never be ruled out for not trying. MacKay's choice last winter failed to impress all critics, and the history of other players will have to be given the once over before the crown is finally awarded.

What should the perfect hockey player possess to be classed as such is the question that naturally arises. Should he be a goal keeper, a defenseman of a forward? As the game of hockey is won by the team that scores the majority of goals, and as forewards have this brunt of the work to do, the perfect player will, perhaps, be more readily discovered up on the firing line, hence the opinion of many that Frank Foyston should be acclaimed the leader. The player should first of all have speed. He should be a goal getter. He should be unselfish. He should be able to check back. He should have stick handling ability, hockey brains and the ability to keep his temper. He should also be able to stand the gaff and go 60 minutes without rest.

What hockey player has all these virtues? Does the history of the game show any man capable of passing a close test on these points? It is argued that Tommy Phillips, former Kenora star, who played his last hockey with Vancouver's first team in 1912, was the closest approach to the real thing that ever displayed his wares on the frozen pond. He was an all-round star.

Then there was Alf Smith, of the famous Silver Seven of Ottawa, another near perfect hockey star. Alf was a regular foxy grandpa for hockey brains. He was out this way a few years ago. He was not the fastest player in the world, but like Phillips could skate when the occasion demanded. The old Ottawa team included other great players, including Frank McGee, Rat Westwick and the Gilmour brothers. The old Ottawa team for many years holders of the coveted Stanley Cup, was the nearest approach to a perfect team ever developed. Yet, after glimpsing Ottawa's cup winning aggregation in the series here last spring, we incline to the opinion that it was probably the greatest squad ever assembled, "a super team", according to Frank Patrick.

Eastern critics point out that Lester Patrick, in the good old days before he came west, was in the perfect class. Frank Nighbor, with Vancouver in 1915, and now with Ottawa, is another star who can go both ways full speed.

However, Pacific coast fans are stringing along on MacKay, Foyston and Walker as the king pins of them all. They exhibit no weaknesses, in fact they can easily be classed as the three greatest players in the game today, east or west.

This document seems to indicate that MacKay was considered the best player in the PCHA during the 1921-22 season, and I tend to think that this is probably true. We will see later, when talking about Fredrickson, that we cannot attribute too much to the above, as the Icelander has strong claim to the "best player" title in the PCHA in both the season before and after this one.

1922-23: Another strong season for MacKay. He is second in scoring in the PCHA, well behind Fredrickson, but well ahead of teammate Lloyd Cook in third place. MacKay is listed as a 1st team all-star at right wing on the end of season team.

1923-24: MacKay does well as a scorer this season, finishing third in the PCHA, but is four points behind the leader, his own teammate and defenseman Art Duncan. He is not listed as an all-star this season, and doesn't seem to have distinguished himself in spite of his superficially good scoring numbers.

Something was going on with MacKay during this period that is a little bit hard to grasp. We see him turning in these strong regular season performances and think that everything was basically right with him, when in fact it was not. Here is what was said about him before the start of the 1924-25 season:

31.10.1924 - The Regina Morning Leader:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=JwhTAAAAIBAJ&sjid=6TcNAAAAIBAJ&pg=883,4392933&hl=en

Fading Coast Hockey Star to Try Comeback
Mickey MacKay May Return to Oldtime Form

How far, if at all, has Mickey MacKay slipped since that fateful night in Seattle when Cully Wilson laid MacKay's jaw open with a blow from his stick and brought on himself a perpetual banishment from the Pacific Coast Hockey League.

Never over robust, spectacular in style and always able to uncork a lightning flash of speed in the pinch, MacKay has been, in the eyes of the critics, self-elevated to that position by virtue of repeated seasons at the Arena, an in-and-outer. One night he looks like the star of old, the next he couldn't be seen through the world's largest telescope. Changes in league personnel, the flooding of the hockey market with star players and the general expected revolution in hockey practice now that Vancouver is merged with the Western Canada Hockey League, induced MacKay to do some thinking recently.

When he signed yesterday for another year with the club he has served so long, Mickey expressed a determination to get into first class shape ere the season opened and to stay that way. Perhaps it will be news to many of the close pursuers of the hockey stars to know that last year, in the opening game, MacKay stopped a hard driven shot with his good right thigh. By the time he was in the dressing room it was necessary to cut away his hockey clothes, so badly swollen was the injury. MacKay was not himself again until toward the end of the season. He was used only on the pinch till the series in the east and the final playoff, when he went with much of his old-time speed and abandon.

"I wasn't right last year," Mickey said recently, "and I know it. I couldn't seem to get going. This year I'm starting out early, taking the game seriously and will make an honest endeavor to deliver everything I possess in every game."

If Mickey carries out his preseason promises it may result in a comparative in-and-outer returning with a bang to stardom. MacKay joined Vancouver in 1915, coming here from Grand Forks, where he set the sticks ablaze with his form. MacKay leaped right into the forefront in hockey and for several years was among the league's leading scorers.

This is a puzzling document in light of MacKay's seemingly strong performances in the years preceding 1924, and when I first stumbled on it three years ago, it led to a certain amount of confusion. Why would there be complaints about MacKay's performance at this point in his career? He was 3rd in league scoring in the previous season!

What this document indirectly points to, I think, is something else. First of all, there is discussion of MacKay's continuing health problems. He seems to have played through a wide variety of injuries which probably affected his performance. It is generally very hard to judge from games played during this period if a player is injured because it was common for players with injuries which didn't prevent them from skating, at all, to make an appearance in games, even if briefly. I'm not sure quite why this was done, but it is a theme of old-time hockey that guys would get one in the games played column even when they were seriously banged up. I strongly suspect that the article's claims about MacKay's failing health are true. He was probably getting the crap beaten out of him.

But there is also something else going on. Here is MacKay's postseason scoring record, split into pre and post-injury timeframes:

1915-18: 11-8-19 in 10 career playoff games (8 Cup finals games and 2 PCHA playoff games)

1921-24: 7-4-11 in 29 career playoff games (16 Cup finals games and 13 Western League playoff games)

MacKay's postseason performances during this period are, simply put, miserable, and I think this is what the article above is really getting at, without just coming out and calling him a choker. MacKay was excellent in the postseason as a secondary scorer on a team led by Cyclone Taylor, but in the latter part of his career, when he was the best skater in Vancouver, he failed spectacularly.

Just to put this in context, we should also take a look at those teams. The Vancouver Millionaires/Maroons of the 1921-24 era were a very strong franchise. They had the great Hugh Lehman in goal, Art Duncan and Lloyd Cook on defense (the best blueline tandem in the PCHA at this time), and MacKay plus some other good players (Jack Adams, Smokey Harris, Alf Skinner and a young Frank Boucher) at forward. Vancouver dominated the PCHA over this period, and went deep into the playoffs every season, twice going down in game 5 of the Cup finals. They were very, very close to being champions, but could never quite get there.

MacKay's playoff performances in this context are even more damning, in my opinion. This wasn't Marcel Dionne getting knocked around in the playoffs as the lone star on a hopeless team. MacKay was the star of dominant, talented teams that got deep into the playoffs in spite of his lifeless play, but just couldn't get all the way. In MacKay's defense, I think injuries had a lot to do with it, but it is what it is. This is the dark side of MacKay's legacy: he left Vancouver fans wanting more.

 

[Sturminator]

Mickey MacKay Part III, La Revanche

So let's wrap up MacKay's career. MacKay did, in fact come back from the dead in the season following that article, and performed very well in 1924-25, in what looks to have been his last real peak season. He placed second in WCHL scoring, one point behind the leader Bill Cook, and was named to the first all-star team at center by referee Mickey Ion, who always picked the western teams, although it seems that he actually played right wing that year. Here is an article explaining the teams:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=zCVkAAAAIBAJ&sjid=Z3sNAAAAIBAJ&pg=2375,1721300&dq

At any rate, this appears to have been another excellent season for MacKay. It would be his last. He more or less slips into obscurity after 1925, and is never again seen on scoring leaderboards or postseason all-star teams. He would get traded (with $12,000) for Frank Fredrickson in 1929, and ended up playing on a Cup winner with Boston, though he looks to have been a role player on that team, going scoreless in the postseason and only playing in three of the team's five playoff matches.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

What can we say about MacKay's "star power" that hasn't already been said? Not too much more. There aren't a ton of primary source documents which attribute a huge amount of star power to MacKay. This is possibly because he was not well-known to eastern fans, having faded from his peak by the time he came over to play in the NHL, though it is also in part probably an indication that he was, as the above article suggests, something of an "up and downer" throughout his career.

MacKay obviously had a ton of talent - he could skate, pass, shoot and check, but he seems to have had difficulties putting it all together consistently, especially when he was the center of his team's offense. MacKay was a small man, and this is likely the result of nothing more mysterious than physical wear and tear. At any rate, at least one of the players against whom he competed thought very highly of MacKay, and put him into the all-time greats category.

21.2.1945 - Toronto Daily Star:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...0A8AAAAIBAJ&sjid=dysMAAAAIBAJ&pg=417,11169997

When Dick Irvin sounded off that his Canadiens are the greatest team he has ever seen, he later confessed (off the record) that he was merely trying to draw a fresher herring across a trail which he estimated was beginning to smell and not at all as a tasty dish.

...

He will admit, if you press him, that he never saw greater players than Cyclone Taylor and Mickey Mackay.

So there it is. There are plenty of secondary sources with flowery things to say about Mackay, but I am not interested in regurgitating any HHOF profiles here, nevermind quotes from Ultimate Hockey or any blogs. There is also a "primary source" document which is actually an obituary for MacKay (who died young) which says that his hook check was almost as good as Frank Nighbor's, but I don't put much credence in the nice things we say about the recently departed.

At any rate, MacKay certainly had star power. At his best (probably the 1921-22 season), he was a dominant two-way player who was capable of being one of the leading scorers in the league as well as its best defensive forward, and he seems to have been considered the best western player at that time. Other than that one article, however, impartial, contemporary superlatives about MacKay are fairly hard to find. I tend to take Lester Patrick's "Ty Cobb of hockey" comments in 1915 with a grain of salt, as MacKay was a rookie playing on a superteam which was clearly led by Cyclone Taylor, and the Patricks were trying to push a product.

Ultimately, I can't find too much reason to think that MacKay's career was much more than the sum of its parts. Excellent, but somewhat disappointing, as well. Mickey seems to have been betrayed by his small stature and the roughness of the sport at the time.

 

[Sturminator]

Frank Fredrickson Part I

We move onto the big Icelander. Fredrickson's is a really interesting story, and I find him fascinating as a hockey player and person. His career is ultimately more well-documented than MacKay's - that is, we have more primary sources saying this-or-that about Frank over the course of his peak, and based on the evidence, he comes out ahead in terms of "star power". To what extent this is a result of luck (the roll of the dice in Google Archives queries), and to what extent a reflection of how the players were viewed by their contemporaries is something we all have to decide for ourselves. I tend to think that Fredrickson's star burned brighter than MacKay's, though not for quite as long.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Frank Fredrickson grew up in Winnipeg in an Icelandic household, and didn't learn English until he started school. He was evidently a highly intelligent person, however, and eventually mastered the language to the point that he is described in later years as being someone whose speeches on the bench were filled with "five dollar words" and only half-comprehensible to the other players. He played the violin (apparently quite well), had many interests outside of hockey, and was said to be somewhat high-strung and hard to handle as a player, though he always got on famously with the also cerebral Lester Patrick, his longtime coach in Victoria.

Frank started his hockey career playing for the Winnipeg Falcons, an all-Icelandic amateur team. He enlisted in the Canadian military during the first world war, and ultimately served for three years, becoming a combat pilot and, as it seems to have been with most things he did in life, apparently quite a good one. After returning from the war, Fredrickson took up hockey again with the Winnipeg Falcons, and led them to the Allan Cup, and then the first ever gold medal awarded for men's ice hockey in the Olympic games. He caught the attention of the Canadian public at this time, and was apparently the bright star of the amateur hockey world.

17.3.1920 - The Toronto World:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...3cDAAAAIBAJ&sjid=tSkDAAAAIBAJ&pg=1981,4942890

Frank Fredrickon, centre - the captain of the team and centre ice expert without a peer. Nearly fifty percent of the goals netted by the Falcons in their fourteen games this winter have come from Frank's trusty club, while the rangy star has figured in many more tallies by timely assists. His stickhandling is always a treat to behold, and his snappy combination breakaways down the ice with a teammate are probably the most dangerous factor in the Icelandic attack. Age, 24; weight, 157 lbs.; height. 5 feet 10 inches.

How to credit Fredrickson's performance in this season and its historical significance is an open question. He was absurdly dominant, essentially a man amongst boys at the amateur level, and was considered a star already before signing his first professional contract. As we will see in Frank's first professional season, this estimate of his abilities was probably accurate. I think there is something of a Peter Stastny factor with Fredrickson, where the level of play demonstrated in the first season of professional North American hockey makes one want to place some value in the season which precedes it, which was also dominant though in a lesser league.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

1920-21: Fredrickson had no particular plans to play professional hockey, and dallies on the way home from the Olympics (played in Antwerp, Belgium), stopping in Iceland to demonstrate some flying techniques. He had actually planned to continue his career in the nascent RCAF (still a part of the Canadian army at the time), but was dispossessed of this idea when he received a contract offer from Lester Patrick that was simply too good to pass up. His signing with Victoria made the national news.

23.12.1920 - The Vancouver Sun:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=ifIdVpG6JtcC&dat=19201223&printsec=frontpage&hl=en

Frank Frederickson to Join Aristocrats

Winnipeg, Dec 22 - (By Canadian Press) - Frank Frederickson, captain of the Falcons hockey team, announces that he has accepted an offer from Lester Patrick of Victoria to play in the Coast League. Frederickson will leave immediately for the Coast.

Fredrickson agreed to this contract on the same day that Victoria played their first match of the season, and he would end up missing the team's first three games en route to the coast. In spite of the missed time (3 games in a 24 game season being the equivalent of 10 games in an 82 game season), Fredrickson ended the season tied for the lead in points in the PCHA, and was named 1st team all-star at center. Even more impressively, referee Fred "Mickey" Ion had this to say about Fredrickson's play that season.

12.3.1921 - The Toronto World:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...F8oHAAAAIBAJ&sjid=kDQDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6479,772999

Three Vancouver, two Seattle and two Victoria players are given places on the P.C.H.A.'s All Star team on 1920-21, selected by Referee Fred Ion. Playing his first season in professional hockey, Frank Frederickson, the former captain of the Winnipeg Falcons, wins a place on the All-Star squad. Ion gives him the centre berth job, and in so doing, adds that the newcomer has played a dazzling and effective game at all times and that no other player approaches him for all-around effectiveness. Another player to reach the honor ranks this season is Jack Adams of the Vancouver Millionaires.

This is heady stuff. Ion was essentially the "league referee" for the PCHA, and officiated all of the league's games, as well as picking its yearly all-stars. For him to say that "no other player approached" Fredrickson in effectiveness in his rookie season is really something. It makes you wonder how good Fredrickson must have already been as an amateur if he could come into the PCHA, without any kind of offseason preparation and missing the first 1/8th of the season due to a late signing, and immediately be easily the best player in the league. Fredrickson seems to have been a superstar right out of the box.

1921-22: A good scoring season for Fredrickson, but nothing outstanding. He is third in the league in scoring, one point behind MacKay in second place, and is listed as a 1st team all-star "sub", making him essentially a second teamer behind Jack Adams, who got the nod at center.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=Gw9kAAAAIBAJ&sjid=2XoNAAAAIBAJ&pg=3902,6068563&dq

Although he scored well, this was something of a down season for Fredrickson, and MacKay seems to have been the dominant player in the PCHA this year. Fredrickson led the Victoria offense, but not by a huge margin, and he got help from Dunderdale and Oatman, both of whom were 1st team all-star starters for Victoria in 1921-22.

1922-23: This is probably Fredrickson's best season as a professional. He led the PCHA in scoring by a stupid margin, with 55 points, far ahead of MacKay in second place at 40 points. He was apparently not just a scoring star, but also a very strong all-around player at this point in his career.

4.3.1923 - The Vancouver Sun:

Victoria's Convincing Victory Over Seattle Makes Team Dangerous Contenders for Title - Frederickson Playing Game of His Life - Maroons Practice New Stuff

"The Cougars on Friday went as the Maroons went last Monday - and then some," declared Referee Mickey Ion on Saturday. "They were a pack of going hounds from whistle to whistle, and Frederickson pulled the greatest line of stuff he has ever shown. The big boy stickhandled his way through for lone scores, drew the defense and passed to others for combined goals, backchecked his opponents till they were dizzy and generally played hob with Seattle. Halderson was also in top form, and Fowler was the grasshopper's top-hat in goal. The rest of the Victoria team came through in good style."

Some more description of Fredrickson's play from that season:

27.3.1923 - Regina Morning Leader:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=HgRTAAAAIBAJ&sjid=yTcNAAAAIBAJ&pg=4009,4206900&hl=en

Fans who had never seen Dick Irvin and Frank Fredrickson on opposing teams were afforded this opportunity last night, and in all due respect to Fredrickson's great reputation it must be said that Dick earned a shade on the night's play. Irvin was directly reponsible for three of his team's goals and on two occasions stick-handled his way clear through the Victoria defense to lash the rubber past Fowler. Fredrickson, however, was a marked man all night and in spite of the fact that he was watched closely and given little chance to bore through he managed to notch two counters and was far more effective in the art of back-checking than his elusive rival.

Clearly, Fredrickson was a fine two-way player at his peak, though I would not put him in the category of a guy like MacKay. Frank was, I think, an offense-first center who could check, not a hook-checking defensive dynamo who could score, like MacKay. One final piece of information on Fredrickson from this season which I consider the most impressive of all:

12.3.1923 - The Ottawa Citizen:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=QBJtjoHflPwC&dat=19230321&printsec=frontpage&hl=en

Former Falcon has Enviable Record

Frank Frederickson, pride of the Icelandic race, is back in Winnipeg today, after winning the right to be called the greatest player in the Pacific Coast Hockey League. Before the fascinating and sensational playing of the big blonde, the work of such former stars as Mickey MacKay of Vancouver and Frank Foyston of Seattle wilted like the morning glory under the blaze of the noonday sun. Frank is very modest about his achievements, but says he gave hockey his best attention and got results.

Frederickson was the big factor in putting Victoria playoff for the PCHA championship..."Freddie" won the two-fold honor of leading the scorers in the PCHA and also in the inter-league series better than his nearest rival. In the PCHA, he ran in 39 goals and 15 assists during the season for a total of 54 points, which put him 17 points ahead of his closest rival, Mickey MacKay...

There is no player on the coast and none on the prairie that can be put in the class with Frederickson, say coast critics. The NHL may have a candidate, but even the great Frank Nighbor would undoubtedly find it difficult holding his own with the Icelander.

Neither Dick Irvin of Regina nor "Duke" Keats of Edmonton rank with "Freddie". Keats has a good head, but Freddie can skate rings around him and out-stickhandle him, and when it comes to shooting, the honors all go to the former Falcon skipper. Irvin is not capable of going over more than half the route, and while still tricky, clever and fast, he is not the pivot man that Frederickson is.

Frederickson looms as the greatest hockey player that is alive today. His four goals against Edmonton and his four goals and two assists against Seattle brand him as a star the like of which has not been seen in the hockey firmament for many years.

Now this is quite remarkable. The Ottawa Citizen just comes out and says plainly that Fredrickson is the greatest hockey player in the world, and states that even Frank Nighbor would have trouble with him. Anyone who has read much from the Ottawa Citizen sports desk of this period (as I have while researching the old Sens dynasty) should recognize what an amazing compliment it really is for any player to be compared favorably to Frank Nighbor, who was generally treated as a hockey god by that paper.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Fredrickson had clearly climbed the mountain by this point, and if the Ottawa Citizen calls him the best player in the world, I think they were probably right. Given the fact that Ion had also called him easily the best player in the PCHA as a rookie in 1920-21, there may be an argument for him being best in the world over a period longer than just the one volcanic season.

 

[MXD]

We all have players we know we won't give any votes to at this point.

 

[overpass]

12.3.1923 - The Ottawa Citizen:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=QBJtjoHflPwC&dat=19230321&printsec=frontpage&hl=en



Now this is quite remarkable. The Ottawa Citizen just comes out and says plainly that Fredrickson is the greatest hockey player in the world, and states that even Frank Nighbor would have trouble with him. Anyone who has read much from the Ottawa Citizen sports desk of this period (as I have while researching the old Sens dynasty) should recognize what an amazing compliment it really is for any player to be compared favorably to Frank Nighbor, who was generally treated as a hockey god by that paper.

The piece on Fredrickson is dated from the previous day, March 20, and written from Winnipeg. It was almost certainly picked up on the wire and republished by the Citizen and shouldn't be taken as an Ottawa point of view. More likely it was a Winnipeg point of view.

Contrast it with the piece on the Ottawa-Vancouver series on the same page, which was specifically under the byline of the Citizen sports editor writing from Vancouver.

 

[Sturminator]

Frank Fredrickson Part II

So we see from the above that Fredrickson had considerable star power. We also see, in the article comparing his performance to Dick Irvin's, the beginnings of something else that would become something of a theme for the rest of the Icelander's western league career: after the decline of Oatman and Dunderdale, Fredrickson was the only offensive threat that Victoria had, and was targeted by opposing checkers at every turn. Here is a quick breakdown of Fredrickson's scoring and that of the next best Victoria scorer during his career out west:

Year|Fredrickson|Next Best|% of Fred's Score
1920-21|32|20|63
1921-22|25|19|76
1922-23|55|26|47
1923-24|28|16|57
1924-25|30|14|47
1925-26|24|17|71

As you can see, Frank received at least a decent amount of offensive help in his first two seasons in the PCHA, but carried an absurd offensive burden over the next three before Jack Walker's good 1925-26 season. These are unusual numbers even for what was generally an unbalanced era of hockey. The only other PCHA player whose share of team scoring reached these levels was Cyclone Taylor. The other stars of the league - MacKay, Foyston, Morris, Dunderdale, etc. - were always cogs in relatively balanced attacks. Not so with Fredrickson, and this should be kept in mind when we look at his scoring numbers on the whole.

1923-24: this looks like another strong season for Fredrickson. He ends up second in PCHA scoring on the season, tied with MacKay (in the season when defenseman Art Duncan won the scoring title), which isn't overly impressive until you consider that the next best scorer on Victoria was Clem Loughlin, a defenseman not much known for his scoring. It would be hard to place Fredrickson above Duncan in the latter's best season, but he was a 1st team all-star center this year, and was quite probably the best forward in the league, at least.

The somewhat less impressive campaign of the previous season doesn't seem to have dimmed Fredrickson's star much, if at all, and we see him described as the best western player again in the lead-up to the 1924-25 season:

30.10.1924 - Christian Science Monitor:

*as this is a CSM document and protected by a paywall (yes, I had to buy it), I cannot provide a link

Sale of four former stars of the old Seattle Metropolitans of the Victoria Cougars and the Vancouver Maroons, of the Western Canada Hockey Association, was recently announced. Walker, Holmes and Fraser will join the Victoria lineup and the opening of the season, while Foyston will go to Vancouver.

Purchase of Walker, Holmes and Fraser means that the Victoria team, contrary to all expectations, will be almost completely changed this year. Holmes will replace Fowler in goal, the former Victoria goalie being slated for one of the prairie teams, probably Edmonton, which recently released its goaltender. Fraser's playing on the Seattle defense last year was so spectacular that he is expected to take a regular place on the Victoria team, probably replacing Halderson, whose work last season was disappointing. Walker, though one of the veterans of the old Coast League, is regarded as one of the greatest strategists in the game in the west and is credited with inventing the hook check now used everywhere. He always played in rover's position before the introduction of the six-man game and has never been as effective on the wing as in his old position.

Foyston is expected to replace Frank Boucher in center on the Vancouver lineup. For the last half dozen years Foyston has been considered one of the greatest forwards in the game, being excelled in the west only by Frederickson, the crack Victoria center ice man. He is in the veteran class now and has lost a good deal of his old speed. As a stickhandler, however, he has few equals.

The transfer of Walker, Foyston and Fraser breaks up a trio who have made hockey history. Foyston and Walker have been playing together since 1915 and in that time have developed remarkable combination play. With Arbour of Edmonton playing on the wing, and the three former Seattle players in the lineup, the Victoria team will be scarcely recognizeable. Frederickson, Loughlin and Hart are expected to wear the blue Cougar jersey this season, but no definite announcement on his plans has been made yet by Lester Patrick, Victoria manager.

There seems to have been little doubt in the eyes of the press, as seen from multiple sources, that Fredrickson was the greatest of the western forwards. He is held up by multiple sources as the standard against which others are to be judged. The above article is also an important part of our narrative because it describes a radical change in the organization of hockey in the west, and specifically with respect to the Victoria roster, which received a large influx of talent from the Seattle veterans.

1924-25: this appears to be another very strong season for Fredrickson. He ends up 5th in the WCHL scoring race, but is only four points behind the leader Bill Cook, and once again more than doubles the offensive output of the next best scorer on the Victoria team. The seeming incongruity between Fredrickson's scoring relative to the league leaders and his "star power" during this period is, I think, explained by his role as offensive catalyst of what was otherwise a defensive team, not unlike another Frank, Mahovlich, several decades later.

But Lester Patrick, great coach that he was, had a hole card to play with what was now a very deep Victoria lineup. He seems to have implemented the first real "shift" system in hockey history in Victoria during the 1924-25 season, rotating his forwards every few minutes and getting them to play a fast, up-tempo style which other teams found difficult to handle.

26.12.1924 - Regina Morning Leader:

The Christmas game served to introduce the Cougars to the home fans. It was their first appearance here and they certainly have a lineup of champions. Vancouver tried the three-man defense, but the consistent rushing of the Cougars was too smart for ever these stalwart defence tactics. Victoria placed every reliance in the two defense man system and had three men breaking abreast on each rush. The result was that the Cougars were on top of the Maroons all the way and only some splendid net guarding by Charlie Reid prevented the score from going higher.

Frank Fredrickson, Icelandic Cyclone, turned in his best game on local ice since turning pro. He notched three goals and missed others simply because he was skating so fast that he was on the top of the goal before he knew where he was. Frank Boucher, MacKay, Duncan and Arbour worked hard to bring on scores, but the severe back-checking of the Victoria line ruined a lot of their efforts.

Those Cougars would sneak into the playoffs in 3rd place in the WCHL, and remarkably get through the west and defeat the Montreal Canadians 3 games to 1 in the finals, becoming the last of the western league teams to win the Stanley Cup. Descriptions of how they did it, and Fredrickson's role in that process, are of great interest. Because I have already written a relatively large amount of text on this subject, I refer the reader to these posts:

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=32224669&postcount=125

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=32224802&postcount=126

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=32291027&postcount=127

Long story short, Fredrickson was what looks to have been the main cog in a (for that time) short-shift pressure checking system implemented by Lester Patrick and put to great use against Howie Morenz in the finals. Jack Walker is also said to have played very well during those playoffs, but Fredrickson is specifically given most of the credit for the work done on Morenz, and was picked by at least one western sportswriter as the best center in the hockey world in that year.

21.4.1925 - Regina Morning Leader:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=_QtTAAAAIBAJ&sjid=-jcNAAAAIBAJ&pg=5154,2882156&hl=en

Which one of the following players is the best - please name them in the order they stand - Duke Keats, Howie Morenz, Frank Frederickson? Who is the best goaltender in the world?

- Anxious, Stoughton

Your questions, of course, cannot be answered finally. In my opinion Frederickson outshone either Keats or Morenz for the 1924-25 season. He was right at the top of the W.C.L. scoring list and starred when the Victoria Cougars outclassed the Canadiens in the Stanley Cup final, Morenz being the pick of the Montreal team. Vezina was recently picked for an all-star team but on last season's play Happy Holmes, of Victoria, would be my selection as the best goaltender.

Whether or not we believe that Fredrickson was better than Morenz and Keats in this season, it was self-evidently a very good season for him.

1925-26: a curious season for Fredrickson. He ends up 8th in WHL scoring (in what was easily the worst scoring season of his peak) way behind the leader Bill Cook and also far back of the top scoring center Dick Irvin, but is named a 1st team all-star over Irvin and Keats, who also narrowly outscored him. This is most likely due to two factors: the fact that Fredrickson received less icetime as a part of the Victoria shift system and the fact that he was a vastly superior defensive center to Irvin. This appears to have been a strong season for Fredrickson in spite of the unusually low scoring numbers for him, and Victoria got back to the Cup finals this year, though they bowed out to the Montreal Maroons, who lifted the Cup on the back of Nels Stewart's epic postseason performance.

 

[Sturminator]

The piece on Fredrickson is dated from the previous day, March 20, and written from Winnipeg. It was almost certainly picked up on the wire and republished by the Citizen and shouldn't be taken as an Ottawa point of view. More likely it was a Winnipeg point of view.

Contrast it with the piece on the Ottawa-Vancouver series on the same page, which was specifically under the byline of the Citizen sports editor writing from Vancouver.

Hmmm...yes, that is probably true. I had missed that the article was written in Winnipeg. I suppose it ends up being less definitive than one might have thought. There is little doubt that Fredrickson was the best western league player in this season, but it doesn't seem to have been necessarily the opinion of the Ottawa sports desk that he was the best player in the world. Thanks for that, pass.

 

[Sturminator]

Frank Fredrickson Part III

Bringing the Fredrickson story to a close, we have his transfer to the NHL and subsequent appearance in what would be his third straight Cup finals, this time with the Boston Bruins.

1926-27: After the western league folded and was sold in detail to the NHL, Fredrickson came over with several other players to a new hockey team that was set to open for business in Detroit, taking its name, the Cougars, from the Victoria team that provided the seed of its roster. Interestingly enough, this team would eventually become the Red Wings, and insofar as we consider the Detroit Cougars a contiguous entity with the Victoria Cougars of the western leagues (which is at least half-true, I think), Frank Fredrickson could be considered the first superstar of the Red Wings franchise.

At any rate, he came to the NHL with considerable fanfare.

19.11.1926 - The Pittsburgh Press:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...UAqAAAAIBAJ&sjid=IEoEAAAAIBAJ&pg=7021,4432403

Fredrickson is Real Star in Ice Sport

Detroit Cougars' Center Man, Who Plays Here Tomorrow, Has Stamina, Speed and Skill

Frank Fredrickson, center man of the Detroit Cougar hockey outfit that makes its national league debut debut (sic.) against Odie Cleghorn's Pirates at Duquesne Garden tomorrow night, is hailed by Pacific coast critics as the greatest player ever seen in western Canada.

Fredrickson played with Victoria in the Coast league last season and with his mates were sold to Detroit interests for $100,000. He is said to be drawing $10,000 for his work with the Michigan outfit.

Fredrickson is a descendant of one of the Icelandic families that settled in Canada years ago, and first achieved fame as a member of the Winnipeg Falcons, who won the world amateur hockey championship in the Olympic games of 1920 at Antwerp, being captain of this aggregation, and playing against Herb Drury, local star, who was a member of the American Olympic sextet. The following year Fredrickson turned professional.

From the first he proved a great star in the money game. He was the leading scorer of the Pacific Coast league several seasons, and it was generally conceded that for all-around ability he outclassed every other man that ever played in that league.

The Detroit pivot is sometimes called the "Babe Ruth of hockey", on account of the tremendous speed of his shots and his general outstanding skill. He combines stickhandling ability with his speed and his shots are said to be harder that those of Babe Dye, considered the hardest shooter in the national league.

Fredrickson is known as one of the cleanest players in the "pro" sport and because he will submit to a lot of rough handling without letting his temper get the better of him, is seldom off the ice through penalties. His stamina is remarkable and he has played ?? of the 60 minutes on many occasions. He will command a lot of attention when he starts against the Pirates tomorrow night.

Not long after the start of the season, Fredrickson was traded with another player to Boston for Duke Keats and another player. The Boston Bruins were in last place at the time, but turned around their season after the trade for Fredrickson, ending up in the Cup finals where they would eventually be defeated by the Ottawa Senators in what was the final championship of that great dynasty. Fredrickson ended his first NHL season 4th in scoring and 3rd in Hart trophy voting, highest among all centers.

Here is what the press had to say of him towards the end of the season:

3.11.1927 - The Pittsburgh Press:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...yQkbAAAAIBAJ&sjid=LkoEAAAAIBAJ&pg=1545,305435

Howie Morenz, Hooley Smith, Aurel Joliat, Bill Cook, Billy Burch, Frank Nighbor and Frank Fredrickson comprise the most brilliant and effective group of forwards in hockey today, in the order named, according to a Canadian expert.

...

Fredrickson is an Icelander. He was captain of the 1920 world's champion Canadian Olympic team. A tall, broad-shouldered, powerful lad, he is gifted with extreme speed, and flashes about the ice at a terrific pace, with long, powerful strides. He was a big factor in the pace set by the Boston Bruins last winter, carrying them into the playoffs with Ottawa. Fredrickson is a wicked shot and a fine goal-getter.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

1927-28: Fredrickson came into the season considered one of the superstars of the now-consolidated NHL. He would ultimately get traded to a terrible Pittsburgh franchise and suffer the first in a series of knee injuries which would rob him of his speed, effectively end his peak, and eventually force his retirement. But we can at least judge something of his "star power" from what is written about him early in the season before the first knee injury.

22.12.1928 - The Pittsburgh Press:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...0sbAAAAIBAJ&sjid=J0sEAAAAIBAJ&pg=6098,3882578

Acquisition of Fredrickson by Local Hockey Club Real Tenstrike

Benny Leonard took a lot of worry off his mind when he closed the deal that brings the famous Frank Frederickson, Boston center, to the Pirates in exchange for Mickey Mackay and $12,000. The acquisition of this sterling puckman just about "makes" the local outfit, and from not on better results should be forthcoming.

Fredrickson is rated No. 1 among the National League pivots, he being voted this post by a canvass of critics in 1927.

Now, it's not readily apparent what this "canvass of critics" in 1927 entailed, but it appears that Fredrickson was picked above Morenz and Irvin (both of whom outscored him by a bit) as the best center in the previous NHL season, for whatever that's worth.

And finally this bit, another reference to his defensive reputation, from the time of his trade to Pittsburgh:

29.12.1928 - The Pittsburgh Press:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...EsbAAAAIBAJ&sjid=J0sEAAAAIBAJ&pg=4314,5554015

Blame Linemen for Weak Buc Defense

A two-game winning streak was the best the Pittsburgh hockey team could maintain, but even the defeat by Toronto could not dispel entirely the idea that the club now is ready to make a real fight to get somewhere in this year's race. Frank Frederickson failed to maintain the stride on Thursday evening that he showed on his first appearance with the local skaters, but his class is not to be denied, and his off-color exhibitions will be far overbalanced by the clever games he will play.

In connection with the defensive weaknesses that the Pirates have usually displayed, a competent hockey man says:

"Don't blame the two defensemen always. Sometimes they have plenty of excuses for apparently leaving Miller unprotected in the nets. When the first line fails to meet a combination assault by the opposing team it drops back in a kind of demoralization on the defensemen. This screens from them the movements of the attacking line, and they have no chance to make plans to meet the assault. Pittsburgh's trouble so far on the defense has been poor checking by the line, and not sloppy work by the defensemen."

Frederickson's experience, and the fact that Milks is again playing a wing, his natural position, should go far toward remedying the faults pointed out by the critic.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

That's basically it for the interesting part of Fredrickson's career. He would go on to be player-coach of the Pirates and coached for a while, but his days as an elite player were basically over. What shall we make of Fredrickson's career, on the whole? He seems to have been an excellent scorer, and was one of the most physically impressive and robust players of his era, combining great size, speed, strength and stamina. He seems also to have been a good all-around player and backchecker, and to have adapted well and quickly to the schemes in which he played.

Fredrickson seems to have had star power somewhat out of proportion to his raw scoring exploits, likely resulting from his team situation. He is consistently described by a variety of sources as the outstanding forward of the western leagues, even called the all-time best western forward a couple of times, though this is somewhat galling in light of what we know about Taylor. There is obviously some hyperbole mixed in with accounts of Fredrickson's greatness, but I think it is clear enough that he was the consensus pick as best western forward over the period that he played out west, which includes most of Mickey MacKay's and Duke Keats' respective peaks.

His excellent performance in a consolidated NHL sort of puts a bow on his career, and should reduce skepticism about the extent of his "greatness" in unfamiliar western leagues. Compared to MacKay, I think Fredrickson clearly peaked higher and was considered "greater" by his contemporaries. But MacKay played longer than the big Icelander, who really only had seven peak seasons as a professional, as opposed to the ten year peak MacKay enjoyed. Ultimately, I would have put Fredrickson in before MacKay in this project, though I think they are ultimately close, and it would be no great injustice if Frank is inducted right after MacKay.

 

[Hardyvan123]

I won't vote for him either (or Dunderdale, Lafontaine, Lemaire or McGee). The rest are all in consideration; just one will have to be left out.

I'll have Zetterberg first this round, and Sundin/Sittler in the top-5 next to eachother in that order. Nedomansky somewhere there. The PCHA guys in the order I said earlier, pending careful consideration of your study. Primeau, if he makes it, will likely be 8th, at the expense of Keats or Morris.

this might be where I'm at for the moment:

Zetterberg
Sundin
Sittler
Foyston
Frederickson
Nedomansky
Morris
Primeau

give or take a few spots...

Both Pat and Jaques still deserve consideration IMO, Pat for his peak and goal scoring ability and seriously how many people think that Big Ned would have had a better NHL career, overall than Jacques?

I certainly don't, there is enough on Big Ned's resume to see huge Red Flags with him.

Foyston over Fredrickson and Keats? Why?

Hell Morris (who put up good stats but was rarely if ever considered a star) over Keats?

I have fredericskon as the best of the early non NHLers but still waiting on Sturm and will give it more consideration.

Primeau over Sedin? Is there any question that Sedin had a better peak? Did Primeau actually have more career value?

That's a hard one too and I'm not sure Henrik is a top 60 guy for me but to see how his brother is struggling with him out and how steady Hank has been, even with his aging decline, his prime is certainly more impressive than Joe's.

I'll leave the NHLers alone for the most part, other than to say that it seems pretty extreme to have Zetterberg #1 and Sedin not even on the list. I guess that's more a criticism of Zetterberg's high place than lack of Sedin

At this stage a guy with the type of playoff resume that Zetts had, along with that 08 regular season that fro some reason isn't being recognized as great as it was, is enough of a difference.

I don't really see why Nedomansky should be so far behind Petrov - inded, why should he be behind at all?

I should be surprised but then again exactly how and why is Big Ned ahead of sundin?

We have some idea of what each guy did in North america (forget the conditions even which seems to be the case anyways).

Big Ned

Age 30 tied for 18th in points with Dman Kevin Morrison (was 12th in goals)
Age 31 12th in points, 3rd in goals
age 32 tied for 20th in goals and 13 points out of 20th spot in WHA scoring
age 33 went 12-2-3-5 in the WHA and was 63-11-17-28 with Detroit in the NHL .
age 34 12th in goals, 29th in points NHL
age 35 32nd in goals, 38th in points
after that it was Hello cliff again

Mats, all NHL

30 4th in points
31 25th in points
32 12th in points
33 strike season but given Mats consistency we have to agree that he would have done quite well still right?
34 31st in points
35 36th in points
36 20th in points

On what premise is anyone ranking Big Ned over Mats BTW?

It's not like Mats didn't also have an excellent international career, 6 tournaments best on best over a 14 year period and was a much better 2 way player and Ned was non existent in the playoffs as well.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Off to do a call out job right now will read with interest Sturm's thoughts on the early non NHLer's and give them some thought and do some more research on them this weekend myself.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

^ or maybe we've underrated Bowie and added him too late?

You seem to think that larger player pool automatically equals greater competition, and that the quality of competition increases with time. Neither is the case - the competition in 2000s and today is abysmal compared to the 90s, for starters.

Nonsense. Defense is much more important than you give it credit for, and Sundin is at best neutral in that department.

And if you don't see the folly in using Sundin's whole career vs. parts of careers of guys who partially overlap with his career span in a career points comparison...

Bingo.

If McGee was second best to Bowie and he's not even close, how is it Bowie doesn't even get in the Top 40?

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I won't vote for him either (or Dunderdale, Lafontaine, Lemaire or McGee). The rest are all in consideration; just one will have to be left out.

I'll have Zetterberg first this round, and Sundin/Sittler in the top-5 next to eachother in that order. Nedomansky somewhere there. The PCHA guys in the order I said earlier, pending careful consideration of your study. Primeau, if he makes it, will likely be 8th, at the expense of Keats or Morris.

this might be where I'm at for the moment:

Zetterberg
Sundin
Sittler
Foyston
Frederickson
Nedomansky
Morris
Primeau

give or take a few spots...

To me, Lemaire and Lafontaine were better players than all of these guys (that I saw play).

Lafontaine's offensive ability is clearly not being appreaciated enough. Lemaire's all-around play reminds me a great deal of Keon's. Had to watch him to realize how much he affected the game.

 

[Rob Scuderi]

Both Pat and Jaques still deserve consideration IMO, Pat for his peak and goal scoring ability and seriously how many people think that Big Ned would have had a better NHL career, overall than Jacques?

I certainly don't, there is enough on Big Ned's resume to see huge Red Flags with him.

Does he get to have Lafleur on his line in this hypothetical?

I should be surprised but then again exactly how and why is Big Ned ahead of sundin?

We have some idea of what each guy did in North america (forget the conditions even which seems to be the case anyways).

Big Ned

Age 30 tied for 18th in points with Dman Kevin Morrison (was 12th in goals)
Age 31 12th in points, 3rd in goals
age 32 tied for 20th in goals and 13 points out of 20th spot in WHA scoring
age 33 went 12-2-3-5 in the WHA and was 63-11-17-28 with Detroit in the NHL .
age 34 12th in goals, 29th in points NHL
age 35 32nd in goals, 38th in points
after that it was Hello cliff again

Mats, all NHL

30 4th in points
31 25th in points
32 12th in points
33 strike season but given Mats consistency we have to agree that he would have done quite well still right?
34 31st in points
35 36th in points
36 20th in points

On what premise is anyone ranking Big Ned over Mats BTW?

It's not like Mats didn't also have an excellent international career, 6 tournaments best on best over a 14 year period and was a much better 2 way player and Ned was non existent in the playoffs as well.

You could replace Nedomansky with Larionov and he'd come out unimpressive, yet you seemed a big fan of Igor's NHL career stressing how we had to compare it to his peers at the same age range. Why not treat Nedomansky similarly?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

VsX 7 year scores for the available NHLers

Remember that VsX-7 is a measure of a player's best 7 regular seasons from a point-scoring standpoint compared to his peers, nothing more, nothing less.

Rank|Player|Score
31 | Dale Hawerchuk | 85.9
32 | Denis Savard | 85.4
33 | Eric Lindros | 85.4
34 | Alex Delvecchio | 84.9
35 | Gilbert Perreault | 84.6
36 | Darryl Sittler | 84.1 37 | Henrik Sedin | 82.8
38 | Clint Smith* | 82.6
39 | Mats Sundin | 82.3
40 | Doug Gilmour | 82.3
41 | Pierre Turgeon | 82.3
42 | Mike Modano | 81.7
43 | Jeremy Roenick | 81.5
44 | Ted Kennedy | 81.5
45 | Sergei Fedorov | 81
46 | Evgeni Malkin | 80.7
47 | Bernie Nicholls | 80.3
48 | Cooney Weiland | 79.4
49 | Pavel Datsyuk | 78.9
50 | Pat LaFontaine | 78.8
51 | Hooley Smith | 78.8
52 | Doug Weight | 78.6
53 | Brad Richards | 78.4
54 | Phil Watson | 78.1
55 | Alexei Yashin | 77.6
56 | Bernie Federko | 77.3
57 | Vincent Lecavalier | 77.2
58 | Henrik Zetterberg | 76.7 59 | Joe Primeau | 76
60 | Don McKenney | 75.8
61 | Jacques Lemaire | 75.5
62 | Jason Spezza | 75.2
63 | Phil Goyette | 74.9
64 | Vincent Damphousse | 74.2
65 | Bill Thoms | 74.2
66 | Marc Savard | 73.9
67 | Eric Staal | 73.8
68 | Neil Colville | 73.2
69 | Dave Keon | 73.2
70 | Rod Brind'Amour | 72.8

*wartime star

________________________

All-Star voting finishes among available players

Henrik Sedin: 1st (2010), 1st (2011), 5th (2012)
Mats Sundin: 2nd (2002), 2nd (2004), 5th (2000)*, 6th (1997), 7th (1998)*
Joe Primeau: 2nd (1934), 3rd (1932), 4th (1933)*, 6th (1931)*, 6th (1935)*
Daryl Sittler: 2nd (1978), 3rd (1974), 5th (1977), 5th (1979)*, 5th (1980)*, 6th (1976),
Pat Lafontaine: 2nd (1993), 5th (1990), 5th (1992)
Jacques Lemaire: 4th (1973), 4th (1978), 8th (1977). As a LW = 6th (1970)*

*small number of votes

Lemaire's All-Star record is significantly less impressive than the others. If he's going to be added to our list at all, it will be strictly on the basis of the playoffs.

Henrik Zetterberg needs to be listed separately because he only received 4 votes for All Star center over the course of his career. The rest of his votes have come at LW. Here is Zetterberg's record in All-Star voting for the weaker LW position:

Henrik Zetterberg LW: 2nd (2008), 3rd (2011), 4th (2012), 4th (2006), 5th (2007), 7th (2009), 8th (2012), 11th (2010)*

Again, since LW is a weaker position, this record is not directly comparable to the AS C records above.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

All this talk about what Nedomansky did in North America when he was clearly outside his prime. Nedomansky was impressive for a player his age coming over from a completely different culture and way of playing hockey, but just like Larionov wouldn't have a prayer at making our list based only on his NHL career, neither would Nedomansky. But let's not forget what he did in his prime:

Vaclav Nedomansky

Nedomansky defected to North America after the 1973-74 season and all records of his existence were wiped from the official history books. I assume this data has all been reconstructed.

• Domestic goal finishes to 1969: 1st (1967), 2nd (1968), 3rd (1966), 3rd (1969)
  • Note, these are from SIHR, which is sometimes missing players
• Domestic scoring finishes 1970 onwards: 1st (1972), 1st (1974), 2nd (1971), 4th (1973), 5th (1970)
  • Note that these are points finishes are are from Czechoslovakian sources. They appear reliable.
• Domestic Awards
  • Golden Hockey Stick (MVP) voting: 3rd (1970), 3rd (1971), 4th (1972), 5th (1974), 6th (1969), 6th (1973),
  • All Star Center (1970, 1971, 1973, 1974)
  • All Star Right Wing (1969)
    Note that 1969 was the first year of both the Golden Hockey Stick and All Star Teams
• International Awards and Statistics
  • Tied for 2nd in scoring in the 1972 Olympics (behind Valeri Kharlamov) with some Soviets. Led his team by a wide margin. The Olympics didn't have All-Star Teams during this era, but Nedomansky was almost certainly the 2nd best forward in this tournament behind Kharlamov.
  • World Championship Directorate Best Forward (1974)
  • World Championship All Star Forward (1969, 1970, 1974)

See this post for a comparison between Nedomansky and his fellow Czechoslovak centers Milan Novy and Ivan Hlinka. My take is that Nedomansky and Novy were very close internationally and in Europe, but Nedomansky's strong post-prime North American career should give him enough bonus points to push him ahead of Novy. Hlinka's European and international accomplishments seem a big step down from Nedomansky and Novy.

When I look at Nedomansky's record, I can't see much, if any, difference between him and Petrov, who was added last round.

 

[unknown33]

On what premise is anyone ranking Big Ned over Mats BTW?

I'm sure you've noticed yourself the different standards you used for Stastny/Larionov in previous rounds compared to Nedomansky now.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I'm sure you've noticed yourself the different standards you used for Stastny/Larionov in previous rounds compared to Nedomansky now.

Heh, yeah, hardyvan was singing the praise of the Czechoslovak league when Peter Stastny was available, but now that a player he didn't see play in his prime is available, suddenly it doesn't matter.

Hardy seems to have put his foot down and said "no more" to players who played before 1980 at this point. It is what it is.

 

[DisgruntledGoat*]

Heh, yeah, hardyvan was singing the praise of the Czechoslovak league when Peter Stastny was available, but now that a player he didn't see play in his prime is available, suddenly it doesn't matter.

Hardy seems to have put his foot down and said "no more" to players who played before 1980 at this point. It is what it is.

I recall the Czech league and Nedomansky were also a big deal to that poster once upon a time when it came to proving that Bobby Clarke benefited from a 'non-integrated' league, etc, etc, etc

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

- who says Morris was rarely considered a star? PCHA all-star teams don't. And hey, I recognize Foyston's star power by putting him ahead of Morris, because Morris outscored him handily when they played together.

How many of Morris' All-Star nods were at RW, where he basically had no competition? The PCHA had a very strong group of centers and rovers, but was extremely weak on the wings, with defensively specialist Jack Walker the only "wing" to be inducted into the HHOF from the PCHA.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

HHOF induction dates for the 1910-1926 guys. This shouldn't be used as a ranking (no duh right) but is interesting to look at, IMO

1947: Frank Nighbor, Cyclone Taylor
1950: Newsy Lalonde, Joe Malone
1952: Mickey MacKay
1958: Frank Foyston, Frank Fredrickson, Duke Keats
1974: Tommy Dunderdale

Bernie Morris was never inducted, but it there is a good chance that it's because he was stuck with the "draft dodger" label during WW1, even though he was not convicted.

Perhaps it is noteworthy that Dunderdale was passed over multiple times in the 60s, when the Hall was inducting early players en masse, and that he was not inducted until after most people who saw him play weren't around anymore. Or maybe it doesn't mean anything.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Does he get to have Lafleur on his line in this hypothetical?

Jaques had 7 seasons before Guy became a force and broke out in 75 and 3 excellent playoffs as well. Jaques also brought a 2 way elemtn to his game that Big Ned simply didn't have or show...like ever.

You could replace Nedomansky with Larionov and he'd come out unimpressive, yet you seemed a big fan of Igor's NHL career stressing how we had to compare it to his peers at the same age range. Why not treat Nedomansky similarly?

See the thing is that Igor brought a lot more than just scoring but even if we just looked at scoring Igor has a more impressive post age 30 career than Ned did in North america as well.

Don't just focus on the points in Detroit ages 34 and 35 but look at the big picture.

Either way Igor is on the list and Big Ned isn't and there are reasons for that.

 

[Hardyvan123]

I'm sure you've noticed yourself the different standards you used for Stastny/Larionov in previous rounds compared to Nedomansky now.

Exactly what are those anyways?

Big Ned lives and dies on his scoring stats, the other 2 guys brought more to the table than just scoring, besides I really have no idea on what you are getting at here with the comp of the 3 guys.

Perhaps you could explain in more detail?

 

[Hardyvan123]

Heh, yeah, hardyvan was singing the praise of the Czechoslovak league when Peter Stastny was available, but now that a player he didn't see play in his prime is available, suddenly it doesn't matter.

Perhaps you forgot the main point on Statsny was that he was 6th in NHL scoring in his first year in the NHL and continued to be the top player for the Nords for quite some time.

The focus on the Czech league stats was a counterpoint you brought up BTW.

Peter had great success from day 1 in the NHL, big Ned in north america was meh (even at his age).

Hardy seems to have put his foot down and said "no more" to players who played before 1980 at this point. It is what it is.

Hey i know that you are a moderator and all but why are you even suggesting on my motives for voting with this statement?

It's outrageous, my thoughts on the rankings are based on context not when a guy played ...period.

Sedin for instance isn't a lock for my top 8 but then again I'm not going to simply put in the best centers of any time era to simply fill some perceived quota of needing X amount of players from any time period.

I think Lemaire should get some consideration this round but I guess he doesn't count because he played in France in the early 80's?

Simply put, it's extremely difficult to compare guys from the 19teens to 1990 and your comment above doesn't really add anything positive to the discussion here does it?