Round 2, Vote 14 (HOH Top Centers)

[Hawkey Town 18]

IMPORTANT NOTE: Post 2 of every voting thread will contain instructions as to who to send your votes to. If you send your votes to the wrong person, we can't guarantee that they will be counted.

MOD: This is a strictly on-topic thread. Posts that don't focus on the centers listed in Post 2 will be deleted or moved at the discretion of the moderators. This will be strictly enforced in every Round 2 voting thread, regardless of who the OP is - TDMM

Before we begin, just a recap on how Round 2 will operate:

Round 2

• The top 8-10 ranked players from the aggregate list will be posted in a thread
• Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias
• Player merits and rankings will be open for discussion and debate for a period of at least five (5) days. Administrators may extend the discussion period if it remains active
• Final voting will occur for two (2) days, via PM. Everyone ranks their top 8 players.
• Top 4 players will be added to the list
• Final results will be posted and the process repeated for the next 4 places with remaining players until a list of 60 centers is obtained
• If there are major breaks in the Round 2 voting totals, we may add more or less than the targeted 4 players in certain rounds
• The number of players available for discussion at once will increase from 8 as we move down the list, based on natural breaks in the aggregate list put together in Round 1

These might be tweaked to allow longer or shorter debating periods depending on how the process moves along.

Additionally, there are a couple guidelines we'd ask that everyone agree to abide by:

• Please try to stay on-topic in the thread
• Please remember that this is a debate on opinions and there is no right or wrong. Please try to avoid words like "stupid" "dumb" "wrong" "sophistry" etc. when debating.
• Please treat other debaters with respect
• Please don't be a wallflower. All eligible voters are VERY HIGHLY encouraged to be active participants in the debate.
• Please maintain an open mind. The purpose of the debate is to convince others that your views are more valid. If nobody is willing to accept their opinions as flexible there really is no point in debating.

Eliglible Voters (23):
bigbuffalo313; BillyShoe1721; Canadiens1958; DaveG; Dennis Bonvie; hardyvan123; Hawkey Town 18; intylerwetrust; Jigglysquishy; MadArcand; Mike Farkas; MXD; reckoning; Rob Scuderi; seventieslord; Sturminator; tarheelhockey; ted1971; the edler; TheDevilMadeMe; tony D; VanIslander; vecens24

All posters are encouraged to participate in the debates and discussions, but only those listed above will be eligible for the final votes.

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[Hawkey Town 18]

Vote 14 will begin now and debates are scheduled to run through Tuesday Feb 18 at 9PM EST. You may PM votes to Hawkey Town 18 starting on Monday, Feb 17.

We will be sending out confirmations when we receive ballots from the voters. Any voter who does not get a confirmation within 24 hours of submitting a ballot should assume we never received it and should resubmit it and post in this thread saying they did so.

Vote 14 will be for places 53 through 56 (4 places) on the Top 60 list.

There are 14 eligible candidates for Vote 14. You will still only rank your Top 8 when voting.

Here are the candidates, listed alphabetically:


Tommy Dunderdale
Frank Foyston
Frank Fredrickson
Duke Keats
Pat Lafontaine
Jacques Lemaire
Frank McGee
Bernie Morris
Vaclav Nedomansky
Joe Primeau
Daryl Sittler
Henrik Sedin
Mats Sundin
Henrik Zetterberg

 

[seventieslord]

So, among the PCHA era forwards I'm thinking it goes:

Frederickson
Foyston
Morris
Keats
Dunderdale

what do you guys think?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

So, among the PCHA era forwards I'm thinking it goes:

Frederickson
Foyston
Morris
Keats
Dunderdale

what do you guys think?

Don't you think it's possible that at least one WCHL center was better than the horde of PCHA guys? Basically, seems pretty low for Keats compared the the rest.

 

[Hardyvan123]

So, among the PCHA era forwards I'm thinking it goes:

Frederickson
Foyston
Morris
Keats
Dunderdale

what do you guys think?

How many of them get in and why isn't Jeremy Roenick up yet for contention?

My guess is that those 5 guys rank better in the ATD but I don't need to look that up do i?

I see Frederickson as a possible top 60 guy but the others will have a hard time matching up to the field in this round and probably the next one too.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

For me - Nedomansky is an easy #1. More decorated than Larionov in international tournaments, and if his North American career was worse, it was largely through factors outside of his own doing. His highs in North America were quite high (3rd in goals in the WHA in his first year here; led the Red Wings in goals and points and finished a close second in both categories another time - all after the age of 30).

Disappointed that MacKay got in without really being compared to Fredrickson last round. Why are so many voters refusing to discuss a player if they plan on voting for him?

Anyway, among NHLers, I'm thinking Sittler, Sundin, and Zetterberg should be in the top 8 somewhere.

Fun fact: Henrik Sedin the only player we have yet to add who was a 1st Team All-Star at Center twice in the NHL. I realize he didn't do so much outside those two years, but he looks to be ahead of Lafontaine by now, right? And I don't think Sedin is a lock to make the list.

Definitely hope there will be a great PCHA/WCHL comparison this round (though MacKay was added already, we can at least talk about him in comparison to the guys still around). At this point, I think Fredrickson and Keats stand out, with Foyston having the best case to overcome them.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Sundin was left off of 10 ballots last round, his case has been made, it's up to people to decide where to place him.

Zetts also has a extremely strong case as the best playoff performer this round, and one of the better ones in the project, yet I have a weird feeling someone is going to make the case for Frank McGee?

Zetts regular seasons performances have been really good as well but then again it's only against the best and most complete competition ever right?

Perhaps in 50 years both swedes will be better historical picks eh?

Excuse my sarcasm I'm drunk and frankly a little disappointed by the lack of discussion by manner in this project.

as much as I disagree with MXD (most of the time), at least he puts it out there and there is some discussion to be had.

 

[seventieslord]

How many of them get in and why isn't Jeremy Roenick up yet for contention?

Maybe 3. I would prefer to not see Dunderdale (offensively, the Nieuwendyk of his time) get in, and I'm presently indifferent about Keats.

I would say Roenick is not up yet because Roenick is not a top-60 center.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Can someone sell me on Henrik Zetterberg already over Mats Sundin at this point in his career? I understand that there was a push to get him close to Pavel Datsyuk (understandably), but the basis of the Datsyuk selection was his reputation as arguably the best player in the world in the Crosby/Ovechkin/Malkin era. While there are those who think Zetterberg offers every bit the value of a Pavel Datsyuk (myself included), I don't know that Group A who believe Datsyuk has Malkin-esque value and Group B who believe Zetterberg is as good as Datsyuk share any common members.

As far as I know, Zetterberg is not held in that class of players by anyone. His only All-Star selection was on Left Wing when Malkin and Thornton finished 1st and 2nd at Center (Datsyuk finished 3rd and was also ahead of Zetterberg in Hart voting; Crosby was injured). His 3rd Team Selection (also Left Wing) came in a year where it would be difficult to say he was better than Sedin, Stamkos, and Toews (all finished ahead of him in Hart voting), and he was only nominated for the Selke in the All-Star/Conn Smythe year.

I wouldn't disagree that his 2007-08 was better than any year of Mats Sundin's career, but it just seems like a bit of a stretch already at a difference of 1346 GP and 759 GP because Zetterberg is the better defensive player (but not really Selke caliber; he hasn't been a top-four PK forward since 2008-09). Both lost a year-and-a-half to lockouts. Did Zetterberg really offer twice the bang for the buck, or are we caught up in the idea of Datsyuk and Zetterberg next to each other as much as we were with Malkin and Datsyuk next to each other?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Can someone sell me on Henrik Zetterberg already over Mats Sundin at this point in his career? I understand that there was a push to get him close to Pavel Datsyuk (understandably), but the basis of the Datsyuk selection was his reputation as arguably the best player in the world in the Crosby/Ovechkin/Malkin era. While there are those who think Zetterberg offers every bit the value of a Pavel Datsyuk (myself included), I don't know that Group A who believe Datsyuk has Malkin-esque value and Group B who believe Zetterberg is as good as Datsyuk share any common members.

As far as I know, Zetterberg is not held in that class of players by anyone. His only All-Star selection was on Left Wing when Malkin and Thornton finished 1st and 2nd at Center (Datsyuk finished 3rd and was also ahead of Zetterberg in Hart voting; Crosby was injured). His 3rd Team Selection (also Left Wing) came in a year where it would be difficult to say he was better than Sedin, Stamkos, and Toews (all finished ahead of him in Hart voting), and he was only nominated for the Selke in the All-Star/Conn Smythe year.

I wouldn't disagree that his 2007-08 was better than any year of Mats Sundin's career, but it just seems like a bit of a stretch already at a difference of 1346 GP and 759 GP because Zetterberg is the better defensive player (but not really Selke caliber; he hasn't been a top-four PK forward since 2008-09). Both lost a year-and-a-half to lockouts. Did Zetterberg really offer twice the bang for the buck, or are we caught up in the idea of Datsyuk and Zetterberg next to each other as much as we were with Malkin and Datsyuk next to each other?

The case for Zetterberg is playoffs. But yes, I had Mats Sundin higher than Zetterberg last round. And I had Sundin in 8th

 

[Sturminator]

It is actually a very close-run thing between Fredrickson and MacKay as to who was the second best PCHA forward after Taylor. If MacKay went in last round, then Fredrickson should go in immediately. Fredrickson over Keats shouldn't be controversial once the evidence is presented, and the rest of them just don't compare all that well to the Icelander.

I'm going to do a big study of all the PCHA guys here, and I'm even going to include MacKay because I have done the work on him and am somewhat disappointed that he went in without much discussion. It may have to wait until the weekend, but I'll get the information out there this round, and then we can sort them out after that. My impressions after churning through the data:

Fredrickson/MacKay
----------------------
Keats/Foyston
----------------------
Morris
----------------------
Dunderdale

 

[quoipourquoi]

The case for Zetterberg is playoffs. But yes, I had Mats Sundin higher than Zetterberg last round. And I had Sundin in 8th

But if playoffs are enough to boost Zetterberg ahead of Sundin, why is Zetterberg not ahead of Datsyuk?

 

[Sturminator]

I would say Roenick is not up yet because Roenick is not a top-60 center.

Disagree. Roenick is underrated because the timing of his injury coincided perfectly with the beginning of the dead puck era. JR actually came back much farther from the knee problems than many believe and had some excellent seasons in Phoenix and even one in Philly, but people tend to see a big falloff in raw points and think that the injuries basically finished him (because nobody watches Coyote games). Roenick also shot his reputation in the foot by hanging on for too long and becoming something of a clownish figure in the twilight of his career. At any rate, if you sift through all of the noise and get at the core of what Roenick actually did on the ice, I think he is a top-60 center of all-time.

 

[Hardyvan123]

For me - Nedomansky is an easy #1. More decorated than Larionov in international tournaments, and if his North American career was worse, it was largely through factors outside of his own doing. His highs in North America were quite high (3rd in goals in the WHA in his first year here; led the Red Wings in goals and points and finished a close second in both categories another time - all after the age of 30).

Disappointed that MacKay got in without really being compared to Fredrickson last round. Why are so many voters refusing to discuss a player if they plan on voting for him?

Anyway, among NHLers, I'm thinking Sittler, Sundin, and Zetterberg should be in the top 8 somewhere.

Fun fact: Henrik Sedin the only player we have yet to add who was a 1st Team All-Star at Center twice in the NHL. I realize he didn't do so much outside those two years, but he looks to be ahead of Lafontaine by now, right? And I don't think Sedin is a lock to make the list.

Definitely hope there will be a great PCHA/WCHL comparison this round (though MacKay was added already, we can at least talk about him in comparison to the guys still around). At this point, I think Fredrickson and Keats stand out, with Foyston having the best case to overcome them.

Really Big Ned as the top dog this round?

Here is how he ranks in points and goals during his time in the WHA, which wasn't the NHL by any means.

Age 30 tied for 18th in points with Dman Kevin Morrison (was 12th in goals)
Age 31 12th in points, 3rd in goals
age 32 tied for 20th in goals and 13 points out of 20th spot in WHA scoring
age 33 went 12-2-3-5 in the WHA and was an equally mediocre 63-11-17-28 with Detroit in the NHL . Yes that was Detroit in the extremely watered down 77-78 NHL season not the dynasty Habs or anything.

Then in his age 34 and 35 seasons he decides to start scoring again but his defense probably makes Phil Esposito look like a Selke candidate (and no Phil never did do that).

Does all that goal scoring in the Czech league and weaker WC and Olympics of the late 60's and early 70's really make his resume better than Zetts for instance?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Really Big Ned as the top dog this round?

Here is how he ranks in points and goals during his time in the WHA, which wasn't the NHL by any means.

Age 30 tied for 18th in points with Dman Kevin Morrison (was 12th in goals)
Age 31 12th in points, 3rd in goals
age 32 tied for 20th in goals and 13 points out of 20th spot in WHA scoring
age 33 went 12-2-3-5 in the WHA and was an equally mediocre 63-11-17-28 with Detroit in the NHL . Yes that was Detroit in the extremely watered down 77-78 NHL season not the dynasty Habs or anything.

Then in his age 34 and 35 seasons he decides to start scoring again but his defense probably makes Phil Esposito look like a Selke candidate (and no Phil never did do that).

Does all that goal scoring in the Czech league and weaker WC and Olympics of the late 60's and early 70's really make his resume better than Zetts for instance?

That's the strongest North American career of any European who came to North America late in his career until Larionov and Makarov (and Larionov was younger when he came over). And last round, it was documented how Nedomansky was dicked around by the owner of the Toros, who promised him Toronto, and brought him to Alabama. The culture shock seemed too much - Nedomansky performed very well in Toronto, sucked in Alabama, then performed very well in Detroit, commuting from Windsor. Also remember, this is the mid 70s, before Scottie Bowman and Glen Sather integrated European tactics into the NHL, a severe disadvantage for a player coming from Europe late in his career.

And of course, he was at an age when many players of his generation had already retired.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Disagree. Roenick is underrated because the timing of his injury coincided perfectly with the beginning of the dead puck era. JR actually came back much farther from the knee problems than many believe and had some excellent seasons in Phoenix and even one in Philly, but people tend to see a big falloff in raw points and think that the injuries basically finished him (because nobody watches Coyote games). Roenick also shot his reputation in the foot by hanging on for too long and becoming something of a clownish figure in the twilight of his career. At any rate, if you sift through all of the noise and get at the core of what Roenick actually did on the ice, I think he is a top-60 center of all-time.

I agree with this, he was a force with the black Hawks before his untimely injury, an better goal scoring version of Foppa (but comps don't really work that well).

From 96-04 DPE (or clutch and grab really) and after the injury, so not his best showing he is still an extremely respectful 22nd in goals.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/pla...3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=goals

Why is 22nd respectful do you ask? Well this is the heyday of non Canadian goal scoring and of the 21 guys ahead of Jeremy there are 15 players that aren't Canadian, something that perhaps has been either overlooked by this project or dismissed, I'm not really sure.

I repeat this is his resume after his injury and before that he was a much more player on the ice for the black Hawks from 89-95 at the time of his injury.

Hopefully he is up for consideration next round.

 

[Hardyvan123]

That's the strongest North American career of any European who came to North America late in his career until Larionov and Makarov (and Larionov was younger when he came over). And last round, it was documented how Nedomansky was dicked around by the owner of the Toros, who promised him Toronto, and brought him to Alabama. The culture shock seemed too much - Nedomansky performed very well in Toronto, sucked in Alabama, then performed very well in Detroit, commuting from Windsor. Also remember, this is the mid 70s, before Scottie Bowman and Glen Sather integrated European tactics into the NHL, a severe disadvantage for a player coming from Europe late in his career.

And of course, he was at an age when many players of his generation had already retired.

What you say is true the NHL really didn't have very many European players before the early 80's, man I wish I had thought of that earlier as it brings up some really good points though as to the actual level of competition in the NHL in the 70's.

Even so he wasn't done as his later scoring in Detroit showed and it was the WHA not some clutch and grab era that was so different in terms of style of play from the Czech league.

But Ned still "sucked" in his first season in Detroit placing 10th in scoring on that non playoff team.

I remember the 70's very well and Phil was still thriving in New York playing a similar one way game.

His resume is full of holes that guys like Zetts and Sundin can drive through in their sleep IMO.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Any more posts on players who aren't available yet will be deleted (unless they are used as comparisons in posts focusing on the guys available this round).

 

[Hardyvan123]

But if playoffs are enough to boost Zetterberg ahead of Sundin, why is Zetterberg not ahead of Datsyuk?

I think Dats might have been voted in before Zetts even came up for selection but just going from memory here.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

What you say is true the NHL really didn't have very many European players before the early 80's, man I wish I had thought of that earlier as it brings up some really good points though as to the actual level of competition in the NHL in the 70's.

Even so he wasn't done as his later scoring in Detroit showed and it was the WHA not some clutch and grab era that was so different in terms of style of play from the Czech league.

But Ned still "sucked" in his first season in Detroit placing 10th in scoring on that non playoff team.

I remember the 70's very well and Phil was still thriving in New York playing a similar one way game.

His resume is full of holes that guys like Zetts and Sundin can drive through in their sleep IMO.

Seems like your case against Nedomansky boils down to him playing hockey before 1980. I see a lot of complaints about his era, very little about how he stacked up to other players in that era.

How would you rank the European forwards from the "Golden age of (Eastern) European hockey," (late 60s to early 80s) basically a 15 year period?* The top 4 is easy for me:

1. Valeri Kharlamov
2. Boris Mikhailov
3. Alexander Maltsev
4. Vladimir Martinec (who I think has an argument for #3, but that's not important now)

After that, IMO, Nedomansky has as much of a case as anyone. (With Petrov, Novy, and perhaps Jiri Holik as the other candidates. Though I prefer Nedomansky to Novy, simply in virtue of Nedomansky's solid post-prime North American career).

*I realize I'm leaving out Anatoli Firsov, but I consider him more of a mid-late 60s guy, even if he played into the 70s.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Can someone sell me on Henrik Zetterberg already over Mats Sundin at this point in his career? I understand that there was a push to get him close to Pavel Datsyuk (understandably), but the basis of the Datsyuk selection was his reputation as arguably the best player in the world in the Crosby/Ovechkin/Malkin era. While there are those who think Zetterberg offers every bit the value of a Pavel Datsyuk (myself included), I don't know that Group A who believe Datsyuk has Malkin-esque value and Group B who believe Zetterberg is as good as Datsyuk share any common members.

As far as I know, Zetterberg is not held in that class of players by anyone. His only All-Star selection was on Left Wing when Malkin and Thornton finished 1st and 2nd at Center (Datsyuk finished 3rd and was also ahead of Zetterberg in Hart voting; Crosby was injured). His 3rd Team Selection (also Left Wing) came in a year where it would be difficult to say he was better than Sedin, Stamkos, and Toews (all finished ahead of him in Hart voting), and he was only nominated for the Selke in the All-Star/Conn Smythe year.

I wouldn't disagree that his 2007-08 was better than any year of Mats Sundin's career, but it just seems like a bit of a stretch already at a difference of 1346 GP and 759 GP because Zetterberg is the better defensive player (but not really Selke caliber; he hasn't been a top-four PK forward since 2008-09). Both lost a year-and-a-half to lockouts. Did Zetterberg really offer twice the bang for the buck, or are we caught up in the idea of Datsyuk and Zetterberg next to each other as much as we were with Malkin and Datsyuk next to each other?

I'm usually more inclined to the "career guy" all things being equal but Zetts has a distinct advantage in the higher peak and playoffs and defensive play and is still having an excellent season this year as well (By far and away the best Red Wing not named an injured Dats).

That being said I had Zetts 1 and Mats 2 last round but can see the case for Mats over Zetts as well.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Seems like your case against Nedomansky boils down to him playing hockey before 1980. I see a lot of complaints about his era, very little about how he stacked up to other players in that era.

No most of my case was outlined (a couple of posts ago) how he did against WHA competition then in a watered down mostly Canadian NHL, which was rather pedestrian, even given his age at the time.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

No most of my case was outlined (a couple of posts ago) how he did against WHA competition then in a watered down mostly Canadian NHL, which was rather pedestrian, even given his age at the time.

If leading an NHL team in scoring in your 30s is pedestrian, why couldn't Larionov do it? No, not even the San Jose Sharks.

 

[sr edler]

So, among the PCHA era forwards I'm thinking it goes:

Frederickson
Foyston
Morris
Keats
Dunderdale

what do you guys think?

Foyston–Morris is a tough one as those guys played on the same team through 7 prime seasons. One question is who played most center, although I guess that's moot since both are considered centers in the project. But I've seen Foyston listed on all 4 forward positions [C, RW, LW, R] and Morris on 2 [C, RW]. Clear is that Morris was a more prolific scorer while Foyston was better at the allroundish game.

Dunderdale is a bit hard to evaluate as he flew a bit under the radar in the PCHA and didn't play on one of the better teams [Seattle & Vancouver]. He played on offensively so-so Victoria|Portland teams but won the points race twice. Dunderdale too is probably a better scorer than Foyston but the question is allround game. Dunderdale played a bit rover though in one or two seasons and was a swift skater. Had two good seasons in the NHA before he came to the PCHA too.

 

[MadArcand]

Can someone sell me on Henrik Zetterberg already over Mats Sundin at this point in his career?

Defense and playoffs. But I have them back-to back (8th & 9th last round) - Sundin has much better offensive value, Zetterberg defensive value. So playoffs basically tip the scales ever so slightly in Zetterberg's favor.