Round 2, Vote 10 (HOH Top Centers)

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I disagree. Datsyuk's playoff resume is below average. His PPG goes from .98 in the regular season to .74 in the playoffs. It's reasonable to expect a decline in the playoffs because of the tighter checking game, but that big of a drop is not a good sign.

I agree with you here. Datsyuk was thought of as a huge playoff choker before 2008, and even then he was good, but not the leader of his team.

I think over his career, Datsyuk has been fine in the playoffs, but nothing better than you would expect from a player of his caliber

 

[silkyjohnson50]

I agree with you here. Datsyuk was thought of as a huge playoff choker before 2008, and even then he was good, but not the leader of his team.

I think over his career, Datsyuk has been fine in the playoffs, but nothing better than you would expect from a player of his caliber

Before 2007, not 2008. Going into that postseason it was a big discussion both in Detroit and Hfboards because Datsyuk hadn't scored a playoff goal since game 7 vs Colorado in 2002 as a rookie. But then he got the monkey off his back scoring in game 1 vs Calgary and went on to lead Detroit in scoring and had a real strong playoffs.

But yeah, he's definitely had ups and downs in the playoffs:

In 2008 he obviously followed it up with a great playoffs. Zetterberg had the better Finals is what separated them. Both in scoring and the big PK shift highlighted by stopping Crosby on the doorstep.

2009 was disappointing from a statistical standpoint no question. He was injured throughout part of it and was also a bit snake bitten. Bobbie Mac made a comment on TSN late in the Anaheim series along the lines of "this guy's having one of the most dominant runs I've ever seen by a player not getting rewarded with points."
But never the less, you'd like to see much better results especially after having such a monster regular season. Babcock didn't help his cause either though by taking Franzen off his line just prior to the playoffs. Datsyuk played his best hockey with Franzen and Holmstrom that season, but Zetterberg and Hossa were surprisingly a mess together so Babcock switched wingers, which meant Datsyuk didn't carry the puck as often (as Hossa would carry it much more than Franzen.)

2010 he was strong with 13 pts in 12 games highlighted by a 2 goal performance in game 7 at Phoenix.

2011 he was dominant. Despite only lasting 2 rounds, that was the best 2 individual rounds I've seen from a Detroit forward in my life (which includes Yzerman, Fedorov, and Zetterberg who all won or were worthy of Conn Smythes.) He was a 200 ft monster and seemingly pulled off something highlight worthy every game to nearly carry Detroit past San Jose.

2012 was obviously a 5 game dud from Detroit. Datsyuk's 3 points tied for the most on Detroit. He was coming off the knee injury and his lack of burst had been apparent. He's still never looked the same since that particular injury but especially that season upon returning. Nashville used their shutdown unit of Weber/Suter/Fisher on Datsyuk most of that series rather than on Zetterberg.

2013: real good first round against Anaheim, real quiet round vs Chicago.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Before 2007, not 2008. Going into that postseason it was a big discussion both in Detroit and Hfboards because Datsyuk hadn't scored a playoff goal since game 7 vs Colorado in 2002 as a rookie. But then he got the monkey off his back scoring in game 1 vs Calgary and went on to lead Detroit in scoring and had a real strong playoffs.

He was still getting it pretty bad in the 2007 playoffs because of his play on the road. Didn't score a road goal until the last ten minutes of the Conference Finals when the team was down 4-1 (then he scored some backdoor PP goals). An improvement over what he had shown in the past, but inconsistent. Lidstrom was the leading scorer.

 

[VMBM]

Game 4 - USSR 5, Canada 3
Perreault played and did not score.
Ratelle scratched.

Yes he did, and the goal was a dandy (well, not the goal itself, but the way he set himself up)



No, it's not a big deal

 

[VMBM]

That's the main thing. Then the next question is - Why did the hockey establishment prefer Perrault so much? There are some not-so-good reasons - he was flashier, his skillset might have worked better on the big ice of international play. But also good reasons too IMO - Ratelle had MUCH more offensive help (Brad Park is a top 10 all-time offensive defenseman, plus Rod Gilbert on the Rangers); Perreault's playoff record is quite a bit better than Ratelle's, which was good in Boston but truly terrible in NY.

I think only the 1972 Summit Series was played on big ice (the 4 games in Moscow), though.

I guess it is not very significant that Perreault was chosen to play in the 1979 Challenge Cup and in the 1981 Canada Cup and Ratelle wasn't, as he was in his 40s by then. However, in 1976 Ratelle was still very productive, and in a 'new phase' of his career (seemingly somewhat rejuvenated in Boston), and still Perreault was selected to the 1976 CC team and played a huge part (arguably the top center) in the tournament, whereas Ratelle wasn't on the team. Sure, it was a great squad, and Canada always had great depth at center, so it was tough competition, but heck, even the past-his-prime Phil Esposito made the team (mostly due to his heroics in the Summit Series?). Did they just think that Ratelle wasn't, for want of a better word, versatile enough to have a part on the team, e.g. as a winger if not as a center (some Canadian centers like Dionne [and Sittler?] played as a winger in the tournament)? But maybe I'm overthinking slightly here.

I love both players, but even though they were so different in many ways, it's hard not go with the supernova/explosive one (=Perreault) here, with international & playoff performances making the final difference.

 

[MXD]

I disagree. Datsyuk's playoff resume is below average. His PPG goes from .98 in the regular season to .74 in the playoffs. It's reasonable to expect a decline in the playoffs because of the tighter checking game, but that big of a drop is not a good sign.

Take out his rookie season, during which he played 21 games averaging 10 minutes a game, and he ends up .82 PPG.

It's still a drop, but a bit less brutal. Besides, no player should be expected to go PPG (or +) while playing 10 minutes as a rookie in a new league, on a team that already has 2 players in the Top-30 centers.

(Did Datsyuk play Right Wing in these playoffs)

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Datsyuk played on the "Two Kids and a Goat" line. He centred Brett Hull (RW) and Boyd Devereaux (LW) in 2002; the following year, Zetterberg replaced Devereaux. In the 2002 playoffs, Datsyuk was 5th on the team in face-offs taken (behind Fedorov, Yzerman, Draper and Larionov).

 

[tarheelhockey]

It's important to keep in mind just how close Esposito and Clarke were from running away with every 1st and 2nd place vote on a three-man ballot and the affect this has on the remaining voting points. Esposito and Clarke, the top-two skaters in the Hart vote, took 359 voting points at Center when it was only possible for two people to have a maximum of 378 combined points. There's not a big chunk of the pie left for anyone to take.

I definitely agree, I just think we need to be VERY careful about counting AS awards in cases where, for example, the spread between a 3AS and a 6AS is only a statistically-insignificant nine points. Perreault's AS record seems a bit overstated when you consider how weak and narrowly-decided his '73 (3AS) and '76 (2AS) awards were compared to a normal year.

Of course, the Center with the biggest slice (Perreault) is also the Center who picked up a 5th place finish in the Hart vote with 25 points when no other Center after Esposito, Clarke, and Perreault had more than 5 points.

Again that's a fair mark in his favor, but it also highlights the difference between Hart and AS voting. Perreault was a one-man show in Buffalo, unlike the guys who were clustered with him in the AS voting.

I'll pull the '70s Hart voting so we can look at it in more detail.

Yes he did, and the goal was a dandy (well, not the goal itself, but the way he set himself up)



No, it's not a big deal

Pretty dumb mistake by me. I knew he had 1-1-2 in the series but only noted the assist. Thanks for the correction.

Also, that clip is a good demonstration of why fans and media love Perreault. His sheer natural ability was a beautiful thing to watch, probably in the upper bracket of players all-time in terms of pure talent.

In a sense, the Summit Series kind of encapsulates the comparison between Perreault and Ratelle. Perreault set up goals in consecutive games on absolutely beautiful individual efforts, but was scratched for the remainder of the series. Ratelle played 6 of the 8 games, playing a primarily defensive role and scoring 4 points off turnovers, give-and-gos and a faceoff win. Perreault's contribution was more memorable for the fans, Ratelle's more significant to the series win.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Points per game leaders this round:

Malkin - 1.226 11th all-time

Hawerchuk - 1.186 16th

Lindros - 1.138 19th

Perreault - 1.113 24th

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Perreault was 21 years old at the time of the 72 Summit Series, and his true breakout season wasn't until 72-73.

Additionally, Harry Sinden has been criticized many times for not giving his younger players (specifically Perreault) more of a chance. Many people would say that Sinden scratching Perreault in 72 would say more about Sinden than about Perrreault

 

[tarheelhockey]

Granular details of Hart voting for each of the candidates:

Datsyuk

Year | Ballot | Placement | Notes
2004|0-0-0-3-1|20th|Teammates Lang (0-0-0-1-1) and Draper (0-0-0-0-1) also received votes.
2006|0-0-0-1-0|t-21st|
2008|0-1-2-7-5|9th|Teammates Lidstrom (2-7-17-24-20) and Zetterberg (0-0-2-1-4) also received votes.
2009|4-14-38-19-19|3rd|Teammates Lidstrom (0-1-0-0-0), Zetterberg (0-0-0-1-3) and Hossa (0-0-0-1-0) also received votes. Datsyuk finished behind peak seasons from Ovechkin and Malkin.
2012|0-0-1-1-3|14th|
2013|0-0-1-2-7|10th|Teammate Zetterberg (0-0-0-0-3) also received votes.

Delvecchio

Year | Ballot | Placement | Notes
1955|4 points|t-13th|Teammates Howe (18 points), Reibel (7 points) and Sawchuk (2 points) also received votes.
1965|0-4|t-9th|Teammates Ullman (22-74), Howe (9-26), Crozier (8-16) and Gadsby (1-0) also received votes.

Hawerchuk

Year | Ballot | Placement | Notes
1982|0-2-7|5th|Gretzky captured all 63 first-place votes that year. This was Hawerchuk's rookie season.
1985|1-23-17|2nd|Only 3 first-place votes went to players other than Gretzky. Hawerchuk led in both 2nd and 3rd place votes.
1987|0-2-5|6th|
1988|0-0-2|7th|

Larionov

Year | Ballot | Placement | Notes
1994|0-0-1|15th|Bear in mind this vote occurred before the Sharks' dramatic playoff run.

Lindros

Year | Ballot | Placement | Notes
1993|0-0-1|9th|This was Lindros' rookie season.
1995|10-4-1|1st|This was the half-season with a weird voting system.
1996|2-17-7-12-3|3rd|Lindros finished behind strong, but non-peak seasons from Lemieux and Messier. Teammate Leclair (0-0-1-0-0) also received a vote.
1997|0-2-2-1-3|9th|Teammate Leclair (0-4-5-2-7) also received votes.
1999|0-4-5-6-6|6th|

Malkin

Year | Ballot | Placement | Notes
2008|1-66-27-13-13|2nd|Finished behind Ovechkin's peak 65-goal season. Teammates Crosby (0-0-0-0-2) and Gonchar (0-0-0-0-2) also received votes.
2009|12-71-27-9-8|2nd|Finished behind a peak season from Ovechkin. Teammate Crosby (0-3-5-13-18) also received votes.
2012|144-4-1-0|1st|Only three other players received 1st place votes (Lundquist 3, Stamkos and Quick 1). Every voter had Malkin top-3. Teammate Neal (0-0-0-0-2) also received votes.

Oates

Year | Ballot | Placement | Notes
1993|0-6-10|4th|Lemieux's ballot was 49-1-0 that year.
1994|0-0-2|14th|Teammates Bourque (2-2-2) and Neely (0-1-2) also received votes.
2000|0-0-0-0-1|t-17th|Teammates Kolzig (2-3-12-10-8) and Simon (0-0-1-0-0) also received votes.

Perreault

Year | Ballot | Placement | Notes
1971|2 pts|13th|This was Perreault's rookie season.
1972|2 pts|10th|
1973|25 pts|5th|Teammate Horton (1 pt) also received a vote.
1976|10 pts|t-7th|
1977|26 pts|7th|
1978|3 pts|13th|
1980|4 pts|13th|Teammate Gare (20 pts) also received votes.

Ratelle

Year | Ballot | Placement | Notes
1968|0-4|9th|Teammates Giacomin (0-8) and Neilson (0-1) also received votes.
1971|1 pt|t-14th|Teammates Giacomin (3 pts) and Villemure (3 pts) also received votes.
1972|55 pts|4th|Finished 2 pts behind 3rd-place Esposito. Teammates Hadfield (18 pts) and Park (4 pts) also received votes.
1973|2 pts|t-11th|Teammate Tkaczuk (1 pt) also received a vote.
1976|11 pts|6th|Teammates Park (15 pts) and Bucyk (3 pts) also received votes.
1977|16 pts|8th|

Smith

Year | Ballot | Placement | Notes
1925|14 pts|12th|Teammates Clancy (30 pts), Boucher (16 pts) and Nighbor (10 pts) also received votes.
1926|44 pts|t-4th|Placed 24 pts behind his teammate, Nighbor, for 3rd. Teammate Clancy (28 pts) also received votes.
1932|?|3rd|Placed behind Morenz and Ching Johnson.
1936|39 pts|2nd|Placed behind Eddie Shore's 55 pts.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Morenz and Shore were past their best years by '32 and '36 respectively.



Bear in mind that Russell Bowie played before the Hart existed, and Igor Larionov played the better half of his career outside North America.

 

[MXD]

1932 - Probably the last great year from Morenz. Consider him still in his prime.

1936 - Shore had a very weak offensive year by his standards. Bruins don't give many goals. Tiny wins Vezina. Bruins don't score at lot. Really low starpower at the top of the points ranking. This was really the Thompsons year. Paul was involved in 45% of his team goals. Shore trophy might be a case of odd results. Consider Shore a very capable player, maybe just starting post-prime. But odd results.

 

[MXD]

Lost in edit : Shore's partners on D appear to be very underwhelming, unless Seibert was a D yhen. Goals ratio indicates its not the case. I could be wrong.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Totally irrelevant, unless comparing Smith with Oates, Lindros.

Well those 2 guys are in this round and had to deal with Wayne, Mario, Yzerman, Forsberg, Sakic, Modano, Feds... just a huge amount of talent unrivaled by any other time in history IMO.

Someone mentioned smith as a Wayne Cashman type of player and I'd agree with that, still too many top dog type guys here for a guy like smith to be considered IMO.

Aside form his regular season resume his playoff one is really (really) weak for guys in this round.

Seroiusly how can anyone have him over Lindros?

 

[MXD]

Well those 2 guys are in this round and had to deal with Wayne, Mario, Yzerman, Forsberg, Sakic, Modano, Feds... just a huge amount of talent unrivaled by any other time in history IMO.

Someone mentioned smith as a Wayne Cashman type of player and I'd agree with that, still too many top dog type guys here for a guy like smith to be considered IMO.

Aside form his regular season resume his playoff one is really (really) weak for guys in this round.

Seroiusly how can anyone have him over Lindros?

First, those guys were in not in the same stage of their careers, and some of them were on and off type of players (Lemieux, Fedorov).

Second, the Cashman comment was in relation to the style he played, and had to play, as a winger. There's certainly a parallel between Stewart and Espo. Nothing to do with his play at center, where he played its best years. We also happen to compile a list of centers.

Third... I say Morenz. You say Modano. That calls for a big "DA ****".

 

[Hardyvan123]

I disagree. Datsyuk's playoff resume is below average. His PPG goes from .98 in the regular season to .74 in the playoffs. It's reasonable to expect a decline in the playoffs because of the tighter checking game, but that big of a drop is not a good sign.

some of that is due to the large sample of GP and his diminished role in the 02 SC team with 21 GP and 10:40 TOI.

Dats has had many great playoffs and taken as a whole his playoff resume, ie scoring, defensive play, line mates ect... he is in the top tier this round IMO.

Dats has 88 points in 98 post lockout playoff games and is arguably in the top 3 for centers (and players) in value since the lockout in the playoffs along with Sid and Zetts and ahead of Malkin IMO.

That's just extremely impressive IMO.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Third... I say Morenz. You say Modano.

I say Morenz, you say Modano
Morenz
Modano
Morenz
Modano
Let's call the whole thing off

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Points per game leaders this round:

Malkin - 1.226 11th all-time

Hawerchuk - 1.186 16th

Lindros - 1.138 19th

Perreault - 1.113 24th

What is the point of posting this?

 

[Hardyvan123]

First, those guys were in not in the same stage of their careers, and some of them were on and off type of players (Lemieux, Fedorov).

Second, the Cashman comment was in relation to the style he played, and had to play, as a winger. There's certainly a parallel between Stewart and Espo. Nothing to do with his play at center, where he played its best years. We also happen to compile a list of centers.

Third... I say Morenz. You say Modano. That calls for a big "DA ****".

You're right there is an overlap with some of the careers but really is there any argument that the 20's or 30's were more competitive at center (or overall) for Hart votes than the 90"s? Or that it was even really close?

Also some consistency is excellence, like Dats being a top 10 player for a long period of time over some top Hart finishes should matter right?

but then again Smith seems to be getting a bit of the Schmidt treatment here and it's ironic that they are both extremely underwelming in the playoff department yet people are nitpicking Dats playoff resume like it's average (I believe the term fine was used even) or something?

 

[Disciple of Sinden]

1932 - Probably the last great year from Morenz. Consider him still in his prime.

1936 - Shore had a very weak offensive year by his standards. Bruins don't give many goals. Tiny wins Vezina. Bruins don't score at lot. Really low starpower at the top of the points ranking. This was really the Thompsons year. Paul was involved in 45% of his team goals. Shore trophy might be a case of odd results. Consider Shore a very capable player, maybe just starting post-prime. But odd results.

Didn't want to quote your table thread. Anyway...

Interestingly enough, we have shot data from 1926-27 that suggest that (perhaps unsurprisingly) Morenz's Canadiens were drastically outshooting their competition (56.8% of shots taken versus opponents 43.2%). The Canadiens were far outpacing the next team on the list, the Senators (who were at 53.5% vs 46.5%). Smith was on the Sens at that time, though he was about to head over to the Maroons and was probably not playing primary minutes in Ottawa.

As for Morenz...this is when the guy was 24, he was certainly playing most of their minutes. So you can imagine it staying in that ballpark for quite some time.

 

[Hardyvan123]

What is the point of posting this?

PPG does give some indication or each players impact in the games they played in, at least in offensive terms.

that being said some context for era and scoring is required as well and Bowie would top this list but once again in a totally different context.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Dats has 88 points in 98 post lockout playoff games and is arguably in the top 3 for centers (and players) in value since the lockout in the playoffs along with Sid and Zetts and ahead of Malkin IMO.

I think it's worth looking closely at Datsyuk and Malkin head to head.

Malkin has a much higher peak if you go by recognition, but there is definitely an undercurrent of support for Datsyuk as the dark-horse "best player in the world" candidate over the past 5 years or so. Some people perceive Datsyuk as overrated, some would say he's underrated... really depends on who you ask.

During the period that they have both been in the league, Malkin has posted a 1.23 PPG compared to Datsyuk's 1.05. That's a fairly large gap, 15 points over the course of a season. But Datsyuk has 3 Selke trophies during that period. Do the Selkes wash out the large statistical difference? Are they enough to even push the comparison in Datsyuk's favor?

Datsyuk has a longevity edge but it isn't very large. He had one elite season before Malkin came into the league, and a couple which were good but nothing special. Datsyuk was a late bloomer and Malkin is only 27. I'm not sure longevity/compilation can really help us here.

Both players have been pretty good in the playoffs, but I'd say Malkin has the edge there. His 2009 was truly dominant, and he doesn't have any major blemishes on his record. Datsyuk's numbers were underwhelming in '09 and '13, and his pre-lockout years are a real detriment to his case.


My inclination is to go with Malkin here, based on a higher peak and better playoffs. Really the only thing that would make me hesitate is Datsyuk's large advantage in defense.

 

[MXD]

some of that is due to the large sample of GP and his diminished role in the 02 SC team with 21 GP and 10:40 TOI.

Dats has had many great playoffs and taken as a whole his playoff resume, ie scoring, defensive play, line mates ect... he is in the top tier this round IMO.

Dats has 88 points in 98 post lockout playoff games and is arguably in the top 3 for centers (and players) in value since the lockout in the playoffs along with Sid and Zetts and ahead of Malkin IMO.

That's just extremely impressive IMO.

Look... If we purposefully take out 3 seasons of Datsyuk playoffs resume, playoffs where he actually happened to have a significant role for the Wings (I agree that taking out his first season for PPG purposes makes sense, as we shouldn't expect him to produce in the role he had to play, and we shouldn't blame him for not being Fedoeov or Yzerman at this point), we should also do the same for his pre-lockout seasons. In which case we have a player with longevity issues.

So let's not go there. And let's not delve into revisionism either. The guy was just not that good of a playoffs player up to a certain point in his career.

For objectivity purposes, I had Datsyuk a bubble top-4 going in. Bubble, but in. Probably still in the same position.. I'm just against overselling

 

[Hardyvan123]

Look... If we purposefully take out 3 seasons of Datsyuk playoffs resume, playoffs where he actually happened to have a significant role for the Wings (I agree that taking out his first season for PPG purposes makes sense, as we shouldn't expect him to produce in the role he had to play, and we shouldn't blame him for not being Fedoeov or Yzerman at this point), we should also do the same for his pre-lockout seasons. In which case we have a player with longevity issues.

So let's not go there. And let's not delve into revisionism either. The guy was just not that good of a playoffs player up to a certain point in his career.

For objectivity purposes, I had Datsyuk a bubble top-4 going in. Bubble, but in. Probably still in the same position.. I'm just against overselling

I used the post lockout example as his peak and to put some context onto his career and yes he wasn't great in his first 4 playoff years but he has had elite level playoffs since then over a long period of time.

Surely we can agree that his playoff resume is quite a bit better than Smith's right?

 

[pluppe]

Granular details of Hart voting for each of the candidates:

Datsyuk

Year | Ballot | Placement | Notes
2004|0-0-0-3-1|20th|Teammates Lang (0-0-0-1-1) and Draper (0-0-0-0-1) also received votes.
2006|0-0-0-1-0|t-21st|
2008|0-1-2-7-5|9th|Teammates Lidstrom (2-7-17-24-20) and Zetterberg (0-0-2-1-4) also received votes.
2009|4-14-38-19-19|3rd|Teammates Lidstrom (0-1-0-0-0), Zetterberg (0-0-0-1-3) and Hossa (0-0-0-1-0) also received votes. Datsyuk finished behind peak seasons from Ovechkin and Malkin.
2012|0-0-1-1-3|14th|
2013|0-0-1-2-7|10th|Teammate Zetterberg (0-0-0-0-3) also received votes.

Delvecchio

Year | Ballot | Placement | Notes
1955|4 points|t-13th|Teammates Howe (18 points), Reibel (7 points) and Sawchuk (2 points) also received votes.
1965|0-4|t-9th|Teammates Ullman (22-74), Howe (9-26), Crozier (8-16) and Gadsby (1-0) also received votes.

Hawerchuk

Year | Ballot | Placement | Notes
1982|0-2-7|5th|Gretzky captured all 63 first-place votes that year. This was Hawerchuk's rookie season.
1985|1-23-17|2nd|Only 3 first-place votes went to players other than Gretzky. Hawerchuk led in both 2nd and 3rd place votes.
1987|0-2-5|6th|
1988|0-0-2|7th|

Larionov

Year | Ballot | Placement | Notes
1994|0-0-1|15th|Bear in mind this vote occurred before the Sharks' dramatic playoff run.

Lindros

Year | Ballot | Placement | Notes
1993|0-0-1|9th|This was Lindros' rookie season.
1995|10-4-1|1st|This was the half-season with a weird voting system.
1996|2-17-7-12-3|3rd|Lindros finished behind strong, but non-peak seasons from Lemieux and Messier. Teammate Leclair (0-0-1-0-0) also received a vote.
1997|0-2-2-1-3|9th|Teammate Leclair (0-4-5-2-7) also received votes.
1999|0-4-5-6-6|6th|

Malkin

Year | Ballot | Placement | Notes
2008|1-66-27-13-13|2nd|Finished behind Ovechkin's peak 65-goal season. Teammates Crosby (0-0-0-0-2) and Gonchar (0-0-0-0-2) also received votes.
2009|12-71-27-9-8|2nd|Finished behind a peak season from Ovechkin. Teammate Crosby (0-3-5-13-18) also received votes.
2012|144-4-1-0|1st|Only three other players received 1st place votes (Lundquist 3, Stamkos and Quick 1). Every voter had Malkin top-3. Teammate Neal (0-0-0-0-2) also received votes.

Oates

Year | Ballot | Placement | Notes
1993|0-6-10|4th|Lemieux's ballot was 49-1-0 that year.
1994|0-0-2|14th|Teammates Bourque (2-2-2) and Neely (0-1-2) also received votes.
2000|0-0-0-0-1|t-17th|Teammates Kolzig (2-3-12-10-8) and Simon (0-0-1-0-0) also received votes.

Perreault

Year | Ballot | Placement | Notes
1971|2 pts|13th|This was Perreault's rookie season.
1972|2 pts|10th|
1973|25 pts|5th|Teammate Horton (1 pt) also received a vote.
1976|10 pts|t-7th|
1977|26 pts|7th|
1978|3 pts|13th|
1980|4 pts|13th|Teammate Gare (20 pts) also received votes.

Ratelle

Year | Ballot | Placement | Notes
1968|0-4|9th|Teammates Giacomin (0-8) and Neilson (0-1) also received votes.
1971|1 pt|t-14th|Teammates Giacomin (3 pts) and Villemure (3 pts) also received votes.
1972|55 pts|4th|Finished 2 pts behind 3rd-place Esposito. Teammates Hadfield (18 pts) and Park (4 pts) also received votes.
1973|2 pts|t-11th|Teammate Tkaczuk (1 pt) also received a vote.
1976|11 pts|6th|Teammates Park (15 pts) and Bucyk (3 pts) also received votes.
1977|16 pts|8th|

Smith

Year | Ballot | Placement | Notes
1925|14 pts|12th|Teammates Clancy (30 pts), Boucher (16 pts) and Nighbor (10 pts) also received votes.
1926|44 pts|t-4th|Placed 24 pts behind his teammate, Nighbor, for 3rd. Teammate Clancy (28 pts) also received votes.
1932|?|3rd|Placed behind Morenz and Ching Johnson.
1936|39 pts|2nd|Placed behind Eddie Shore's 55 pts.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Morenz and Shore were past their best years by '32 and '36 respectively.



Bear in mind that Russell Bowie played before the Hart existed, and Igor Larionov played the better half of his career outside North America.

I think we are past the point where Malkins peak achievements are so far ahead in so many commonly used measurement (points, trophies, all star teams, post season dominance, seen as a top 3 player, etc (I exclude Bowie because that is a different type of comparison)) that he needs to be voted in. The separation from Crosby is already to large in my opinion.

At this point he really only needs to add games without killing somebody.