Round 2, Vote 1 (HOH Top Goaltenders)

[Dennis Bonvie]

Turco started 26 and 55 games in the two seasons he finished 1st in GAA. I would imagine that he started the easier 26 games in 2000-01, as Dallas still had Eddie Belfour as their starter. Any goaltending averaging stats like GAA and Save % need to take into account the number of games played, as it is easier to have really high or really low numbers in a low sample of games due to hot and cold streaks.

Edit: Just to be clear, I do think Roy peaked higher than Brodeur.



It is interesting. Those playoff splits in NJ look typical of anywhere. Strange. Maybe they brought in better shot recorders for the playoffs

How about last season's Blues squad coached by Ken Hitchcock?

With 2 different goalies their Goals Against was 1.78, better than any other individual goalie. Their team Save % was .932, 2nd only to Cory Schneider, who only played 33 games.

I guess Brian Elliot and Jaroslov Halak both had career years at the same time, coincidentally while playing in Ken Hitchcock's system.

 

[BM67]

A 13 year record of shooting% for both teams in Devils' home and road games, RS and PO.

Year|RS H S%|RS R S%|PO H S%|PO RS%
1998-99|9.97%|9.38%|12.94%|10.18%
1999-00|9.50%|9.35%|8.95%|7.06%
2000-01|10.56%|10.68%|10.96%|8.74%
2001-02|9.89%|8.27%|5.96%|5.76%
2002-03|9.34%|7.56%|7.17%|8.80%
2003-04|9.23%|7.84%|8.33%|7.73%
2005-06|9.88%|9.25%|10.55%|9.06%
2006-07|8.83%|8.23%|10.36%|7.69%
2007-08|8.69%|8.25%|9.94%|11.28%
2008-09|9.33%|8.12%|5.80%|7.80%
2009-10|9.52%|7.78%|9.40%|8.93%
2010-11|8.54%|8.15%|-|-
2011-12|9.65%|9.27%|8.24%|9.31%
Total|9.45%|8.62%|8.91%|8.43%

Of course total PO games vary from 5 to 25 and H/R vary from 2 to 13. The Devils also played 28 OT games, 12 at home, 16 on the road.

 

[Pominville Knows]

Finally i'm seeing Sawchuks career being critically viewed upon. Good. He was the Bob Marley of hockey in the sense that he after his death suddenly became larger than life and obviously impossible to review in a normal way.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Finally i'm seeing Sawchuks career being critically viewed upon. Good. He was the Bob Marley of hockey in the sense that he after his death suddenly became larger than life and impossible to review in a normal way.

I think it makes a big difference when you have Roy, Hasek and Brodeur all wrapping up careers that are of a similar or higher caliber. I can join several people in this thread in saying that I never really thought twice about Sawchuk as #1 until around the time that Roy retired. Once that door was opened, gradually I started to see that Hall and Plante had better claims against Sawchuk than I ever realized.

You can probably blame the lack of a clearly visible top-5 goalie during the 1970s and 1980s for the over-inflation of Sawchuk's legacy.

 

[Pominville Knows]

I think it makes a big difference when you have Roy, Hasek and Brodeur all wrapping up careers that are of a similar or higher caliber. I can join several people in this thread in saying that I never really thought twice about Sawchuk as #1 until around the time that Roy retired. Once that door was opened, gradually I started to see that Hall and Plante had better claims against Sawchuk than I ever realized.

You can probably blame the lack of a clearly visible top-5 goalie during the 1970s and 1980s for the over-inflation of Sawchuk's legacy.

Yeah i guess to some extent. But still, Hall and Plante was there all along.

 

[VanIslander]

At the given 1000 minutes played threshold there were too many guys on the list who weren't on my top-40 list. But if we adjust it to the minimum 2000 shot standard,.... it looks more like a list of all-time greats (albeit modern biased stat):

Career Playoffs Save Percentage Adjusted to regular season scoring - minimum 2,000 shots

Goalie|Shots|Saves|Sv%
Patrick Roy* | 7218 | 6646 | 92.1%
John Vanbiesbrouck | 2039 | 1872 | 91.8%
Dominik Hasek | 3422 | 3140 | 91.7%
Ed Belfour* | 4641 | 4250 | 91.6%
Grant Fuhr* | 3966 | 3618 | 91.2%
Curtis Joseph | 4044 | 3689 | 91.2%
Felix Potvin | 2186 | 1993 | 91.1%
Mike Richter | 2182 | 1988 | 91.1%
Martin Brodeur | 5439 | 4950 | 91%
Tom Barrasso | 3521 | 3199 | 90.9%

Career Playoffs Save Percentage Adjusted to playoff scoring - minimum 2,000 shots

Goalie|Shots|Saves|SP%
Patrick Roy* | 7218 | 6638 | 92%
Dominik Hasek | 3422 | 3140 | 91.7%
Ed Belfour* | 4641 | 4256 | 91.7%
John Vanbiesbrouck | 2039 | 1865 | 91.4%
Curtis Joseph | 4044 | 3685 | 91.1%
Martin Brodeur | 5439 | 4953 | 91.1%
Grant Fuhr* | 3966 | 3610 | 91%
Mike Richter | 2182 | 1985 | 91%

 

[tarheelhockey]

Yeah i guess to some extent. But still, Hall and Plante was there all along.

It would be interesting to trace the development of Sawchuk's legacy compared to Plante and Hall. Did his contemporaries see something we don't? Did the career wins and shutout records mean that much? How long did it take for him to cement the top spot? How many critics were never convinced?

Might not matter for this project, but it would be a nice read.

 

[quoipourquoi]

It would be interesting to trace the development of Sawchuk's legacy compared to Plante and Hall. Did his contemporaries see something we don't? Did the career wins and shutout records mean that much? How long did it take for him to cement the top spot? How many critics were never convinced?

Might not matter for this project, but it would be a nice read.

The sentiment for Sawchuk above Plante and Hall is still strong. If I recall, THN placed him there recently (#1, in fact), but I don't think they ever released the voting results for it. These were the voting results as of the 2005 lockout:

1. Roy, 19 votes
2. Hasek, 7 votes
3. Sawchuk, 5 votes
4. Plante, 3 votes
5. Brodeur, 2 votes
5. Dryden, 2 votes
5. Hall, 2 votes
8. Tretiak, 1 vote

We put the questions to a panel of experts made up of 41 people who cover the game for a living. Included are our regular NHL team correspondents and members of the national media.

 

[Pominville Knows]

It would be interesting to trace the development of Sawchuk's legacy compared to Plante and Hall. Did his contemporaries see something we don't? Did the career wins and shutout records mean that much? How long did it take for him to cement the top spot? How many critics were never convinced?

Might not matter for this project, but it would be a nice read.

Yes, very much. Those records have I surely heard enough about, it's like listening to someone rave about Brodeur lately. The only one on the list is for some reason the number one guy, all others that more or less have the same totals per game are forgotten about, never cared about what it all may have depended on.
Ever since Sawchuk had that suspiciously enormous statistical start at a very suspicious early age, he might have gotten some kind of legend that only grew when he later passed away. Some children of that day grew to worship him and now puts him at #1 as a mere reflex. Forgive me for my grammar.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Original 6

It would be interesting to trace the development of Sawchuk's legacy compared to Plante and Hall. Did his contemporaries see something we don't? Did the career wins and shutout records mean that much? How long did it take for him to cement the top spot? How many critics were never convinced?

Might not matter for this project, but it would be a nice read.

Terry Sawchuk was the elite NHL goalie when Hockey Night in Canada started in 1952. Plante and Hall came later. First to win the SC as the goalie in a 8-0, two series sweep. First to win two consecutive cups in Game 7 of the Finals. Only O6 and first goalie to 100 shutouts, career wins leader for app two generations. Tragic, compelling figure while an extreme elite talent.

 

[Pominville Knows]

Terry Sawchuk was the elite NHL goalie when Hockey Night in Canada started in 1952.

Interesting in itself. Must have been a big deal for many that TV thing, creating big memories about it...

 

[overpass]

The case for Terry Sawchuk is pretty straightforward. Peak and career. He had an incredible five year run after breaking into the NHL, to the point where he was considered the greatest goaltender ever by many after those five seasons. And while the rest of his career was up and down due to his alcoholism and injury issues, he still set the all-time record for wins and shutouts.

I'm not sure that Sawchuk's peak has been fully discussed yet. Comtemporary observers wrote about his performance in the early 50s like we write about Hasek in the late 90s.

 

[Killion]

Terry Sawchuk was the elite NHL goalie when Hockey Night in Canada started in 1952. Tragic, compelling figure while an extreme elite talent.

...ya, poor guy battled with inner Demons for years. Could be extremely caustic, nasty, downright mean. Naturally surly disposition combined with drink. But Christ, could he play when it mattered, money on the line. I never saw him in those early years with Detroit, before my time, but I did watch him throughout the 60's, most notably in the semi's against Chicago in 67 when he was with Toronto. Earlier, 64-65 I thought Croziers performances with the Wings were outstanding, which they were, but Sawchuk in 67? Incredible. Ranks right up there at the top along with Dryden in 71 as the greatest exhibition of goaltending ever seen before or since.

 

[Pominville Knows]

The sentiment for Sawchuk above Plante and Hall is still strong. If I recall, THN placed him there recently (#1, in fact), but I don't think they ever released the voting results for it. These were the voting results as of the 2005 lockout:

1. Roy, 19 votes
2. Hasek, 7 votes
3. Sawchuk, 5 votes
4. Plante, 3 votes
5. Brodeur, 2 votes
5. Dryden, 2 votes
5. Hall, 2 votes
8. Tretiak, 1 vote

Number one recently by THN, number three and outclassed by Roy in 2005? Seems like there are some differing views of things here, and who to trust?

 

[tarheelhockey]

The sentiment for Sawchuk above Plante and Hall is still strong. If I recall, THN placed him there recently (#1, in fact), but I don't think they ever released the voting results for it. These were the voting results as of the 2005 lockout:

1. Roy, 19 votes
2. Hasek, 7 votes
3. Sawchuk, 5 votes
4. Plante, 3 votes
5. Brodeur, 2 votes
5. Dryden, 2 votes
5. Hall, 2 votes
8. Tretiak, 1 vote

This is the sort of thing that can be so, so influential to the hockey culture. Experts ranking the all-time greats in a clear, concise format. Anyone seeing the names on that list for the first time, or who has only a passing familiarity, develops a mental totem pole which is reinforced with each updated version.

And then I stop and think... how many "regular NHL correspondents and members of the national media" are at all qualified to make such a list? Seriously? How many of them have studied the Sawchuk/Plante/Hall debate in nitty gritty detail? How many of them literally just looked at career wins, shutouts and GAA?

Not to toot our own horn too loudly here, but I could probably name 20 regulars of this board who would be better qualified than a typical NHL team correspondent to have input on such a list. They've proven it with their written work on the subject, both here and in other venues. It's kind of amazing to think that this might be the best team ever assembled to work on an all-time ranking of goaltenders. Hopefully, the proof will be in the pudding.

Terry Sawchuk was the elite NHL goalie when Hockey Night in Canada started in 1952.

This is a great point. Sawchuk was the first star goalie to be seen by everybody, everywhere. Hard to understate how much that means to a player's reputation, and especially a goalie in an era of very few recorded stats. People far and wide could actually SEE that he was the best in the league.

I'm not sure that Sawchuk's peak has been fully discussed yet.

I'm getting ready to post a summary analysis on his peak playoff years. The save percentages are staggering compared to modern goalies, with a couple of noteworthy situational exceptions.

Something that would really help me out is if anyone has some kind of average sv% from the early/mid 1950s, or at least some peers who would provide good comparisons.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Not to toot our own horn too loudly here, but I could probably name 20 regulars of this board who would be better qualified than a typical NHL team correspondent to have input on such a list. They've proven it with their written work on the subject, both here and in other venues. It's kind of amazing to think that this might be the best team ever assembled to work on an all-time ranking of goaltenders. Hopefully, the proof will be in the pudding.

At the very least, I think it's a step-up from the goaltending discussion during the 2009 HOH #11-20.

 

[BM67]

Sawchuk's stats by home/road vs each team 1953-54

Vs|GP|Min|W|L|T|GA|SO|GAA|SA|SV%|SA/60
Total|67|4004|35|19|13|129|12|1.93|1927|0.933|28.88
Bos H|7|420|5|1|1|11|1|1.57|198|0.944|28.29
Chi H|6|360|5|1|0|12|1|2.00|151|0.921|25.17
Mtl H|7|420|5|0|2|9|2|1.29|180|0.950|25.71
NYR H|7|420|3|2|2|15|1|2.14|162|0.907|23.14
Tor H|6|360|4|0|2|4|4|0.67|156|0.974|26.00
Bos R|7|420|3|3|2|18|0|2.57|208|0.913|29.71
Chi R|6|360|5|1|0|12|1|2.00|188|0.936|31.33
Mtl R|7|404|1|6|0|18|1|2.67|234|0.923|34.75
NYR R|7|420|3|3|1|15|0|2.14|236|0.936|33.71
Tor R|7|420|1|3|3|15|1|2.14|214|0.930|30.57

 

[tarheelhockey]

^ those numbers are just phenomenal.

 

[Pominville Knows]

^
^ Noone is debating the greatness of those Detroit TEAMS. That year Sawchuk really earned that Second All-Star Team selection.

 

[seventieslord]

And then I stop and think... how many "regular NHL correspondents and members of the national media" are at all qualified to make such a list? Seriously? How many of them have studied the Sawchuk/Plante/Hall debate in nitty gritty detail? How many of them literally just looked at career wins, shutouts and GAA?

Not to toot our own horn too loudly here, but I could probably name 20 regulars of this board who would be better qualified than a typical NHL team correspondent to have input on such a list. They've proven it with their written work on the subject, both here and in other venues. It's kind of amazing to think that this might be the best team ever assembled to work on an all-time ranking of goaltenders. Hopefully, the proof will be in the pudding.

Oh boy, the flaming I took years ago from "hockey establishment" type people for suggesting exactly this.

 

[Master_Of_Districts]

And is that not enough to bridge the regular season gap?

Maybe if you assign playoff games four times as much weight as regular season games.

Which, frankly, only an incredibly biased or incredibly innumerate person would do.

 

[Theokritos]

I'm not intimately familiar with their domestic playoff records, but Holecek won 6 domestic championships, so I assume he did his part.

Holeček never won a domestic championship. He has no domestic playoff record either because there were no playoffs in the Czechoslovak league before the 1985-1986 season.

It find it interesting that in my research for the list I found that several of the better European goalies were highly rated while rarely playing on strong domestic teams. Holecek was one, Dzurilla and Konovalenko were two of the others that I remember offhand. As far as I can tell, none of three ever won a single domestic league championship.

True. But Dzurilla still played on a strong team: Slovan Bratislava was one of the top clubs in Czechoslovakia during his time.

I just wonder whether there were some European Billy Smiths out there who had a lot of great performances in domestic league or Cup games but rarely got the call for the national team and are therefore more or less unknown today. Maybe a guy like Miroslav Krasa, who was on six league champion teams while playing at the same time as Holecek.

Then you would expect him to rank high in the Zlata Hokejka (Golden Stick) voting, close behind the top goalie in each season (Holeček/Dzurilla). Fortunately the voting results are available. Goaltenders who received votes:

1969: 5 Dzurilla, 14 Miroslav Lacký, 15 Miroslav Termer.
1970: 4 Dzurilla, 12 Holeček, 13 Lacký, 16 Pavel Wohl.
1971: 5 Holeček, 12 Dzurilla, 15 Jiří Crha, 17 Vladimír Nadrchal, 21 Marcel Sakač.
1972: 3 Dzurilla, 5 Holeček, 25 Nadrchal, 26 Crha, 28 Jiří Kralík and Miroslav Krása, 34 Sakač, 36 Termer.
1973: 5 Holeček, 11 Crha, 22 Sakač, 29 Krása, 39 Wohl.
1974: 1 Holeček, 15 Crha, 22 Pavol Svitana, 31 Dzurilla, 33 Termer, 39 Krása, 41 Miroslav Kapoun.
1975: 2 Holeček, 14 Crha.
1976: 2 Holeček, 9 Dzurilla, 19 Pavel Richter, 20 Svitana, 23 Crha, 30 Sakač.
1977: 6 Dzurilla, 8 Holeček, 17 Kralík, 23 Crha, 29 Sakač, 30 Richter, 32 Svitana.
1978: 2 Holeček, 15 Dzurilla, 17 Kralík, 18 Richter, 19 Crha, 37 Ivan PodeÅ¡va, 42 Petr Å evela, 46 Milan Kolísek.

Still Holecek was the leagues all star goalie from 71 to 76 and 78.

You have access to Czechoslovak league all-star team votings for the years 1971, 1972, 1973, 1974 and 1976? Or do you simply mean he was the highest ranking goalie in the Golden Stick voting?

 

[Pominville Knows]

The case for Terry Sawchuk is pretty straightforward. Peak and career. He had an incredible five year run after breaking into the NHL, to the point where he was considered the greatest goaltender ever by many after those five seasons. And while the rest of his career was up and down due to his alcoholism and injury issues, he still set the all-time record for wins and shutouts.

I'm not sure that Sawchuk's peak has been fully discussed yet. Comtemporary observers wrote about his performance in the early 50s like we write about Hasek in the late 90s.

He was chosen to the NHL First All-Star Team in 1951, 1952 and 1953, that happened to be the only times in his career he got that recognition. In the following two years Harry Lumley(Not a top-6 goalie) dismantled him in that department. After that Glenn Hall and to a lesser extent Jaques Plante took over in a big way.
Could it be that Sawchuks style was somewhat revolutionary in a positive way and that he was a few years before his time? That not only his alcoholism, bad mental health and worser teams are the reasons for his seemingly deteriorating play later, but that Glenn Hall actually came with his butterfly style and simply outplayed him? Same with Plante? I'm asking as somewhat of a newbie compared to some others here.
Either way, during those early seasons the Detroit Red Wings just as everyone knows was a very, very strong team that even before Sawchuks arrival consistently finished first in the league standings and featured defensemen like all time greats Red Kelly and Marcel Pronovost. The team also possibly carried quite a few forwards that took defensive responsibility not to mention instead keeping the puck in the offensive zone most of the time. To what degree are Sawchuks fantastic regular season and playoff statistics in those years becouse he was before his time and/or he had a truly great team in front of him? Many of his career marks are BECOUSE of his start/peak, lets remember that becouse both Glenn Hall and Jaques Plante are right up there behind him in those categories, especially if we consider games played and in Glenns case(Unsure about Plante right now) certainly while playing for lesser teams most of the time.

 

[Sanf]

Holeček never won a domestic championship. He has no domestic playoff record either because there were no playoffs in the Czechoslovak league before the 1985-1986 season.

There were four team playoffs in 71 and 73 but they changed back to old format

True. But Dzurilla still played on a strong team: Slovan Bratislava was one of the top clubs in Czechoslovakia during his time.

Yes and the last three seasons in there almost destroyed his career (battle with Sakac). He was bit of out of scenes from 72-73 season to 76. He even retired from national team in 74 and was asked back after Crha was injured in 76 olympics.

Then you would expect him to rank high in the Zlata Hokejka (Golden Stick) voting, close behind the top goalie in each season (Holeček/Dzurilla). Fortunately the voting results are available. Goaltenders who received votes:

You were faster with this one

You have access to Czechoslovak league all-star team votings for the years 1971, 1972, 1973, 1974 and 1976? Or do you simply mean he was the highest ranking goalie in the Golden Stick voting?

I have these. I suppose it changed to the best goalie award after 77. I have shreads of info that there were somekind of goalie trophy even before these.

http://statshockey.webnode.cz/all-stars/extraliga/

http://statshockey.webnode.cz/all-stars/top/

 

[Canadiens1958]

Terry Sawchuk/Harry Lumley

He was chosen to the NHL First All-Star Team in 1951, 1952 and 1953, that happened to be the only times in his career he got that recognition. In the following two years Harry Lumley(Not a top-6 goalie) dismantled him in that department. After that Glenn Hall and to a lesser extent Jaques Plante took over in a big way.
Could it be that Sawchuks style was somewhat revolutionary in a positive way and that he was a few years before his time? That not only his alcoholism and bad mental health are the reasons for his seemingly deteriorating play later, but that Glenn Hall actually came with his butterfly style and simply outplayed him? Same with Plante? I'm asking as somewhat of a newbie compared to some others here.
Either way, during those early seasons the Detroit Red Wings was a very, very strong team that consistently finished first in the league standings and featured defensemen like all time greats Red Kelly and Marcel Pronovost. The team also possibly carried quite a few forwards that took defensive responsibility not to mention instead keeping the puck in the offensive zone most of the time. Too what degree are Sawchuks fantastic regular season and playoff statistics in those years becouse he was before his time and/or he had a truly great team in front of him? Many of his career marks are BECOUSE of his start/peak, lets remember that becouse both Glenn Hall and Jaques Plante are right up there behind him in those categories, especially if we consider games played and in Glenns case(Unsure about Plante right now) certainly while playing for lesser teams most of the time.

Terry Sawchuk 1951-1955 had a regular season GAA that range between 1.90 and 1,99. Harry Lumley in 1954 and 1955 finished at 1.86 and 1.94, slightly better than Sawchuk.Lumley's overall stats below:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/l/lumleha01.html

Lumley with the Leafs played on a very defensive team led by the best defensive forward of the early to mid fifties - Ted Kennedy. The 1955 season despite their strong defense saw the Leafs produce a 24-24-22 record, 23-24-22 with Lumley in goal.

Harry Lumley is a Top 6 Original 6 goalie. Like Terry Sawchuk and Glenn Hall he came up thru the Detroit system(Jack Adams/Tommy Ivan - later Chicago GM). Starting goalie on the Red Wings 1950 SC Championship team and 1948 and 1949 SC Finalists. Traded after the 1950 season to Chicago to make room for Terry Sawchuk.

Basic problem with the Detroit(Adams) / Chicago(Ivan) teams post 1955 was that neither was willing to invest or build bottom 1/3 to 2/3 team strength and depth.