Round 2, Vote 1 (HOH Top Goaltenders)

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Canadiens1958

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Alternative

On the other hand, Dryden played when the gap between the haves and have-nots was the largest it has ever been in history due to rapid expansion. And Montreal was the biggest "have" of them all, due partly to Sam Pollock basically rigging the expansion draft so that Montreal would be hurt less than the other Original 6 teams.

Alternative view would be that Montreal and Boston viewed the expansion draft(s) as opportunities to improve their orchards while the other 4 Original 6 teams saw an opportunity to get rid of old trees and poor harvests.

The have/have nots distinction goes back to the post WWII original six. Montreal, Toronto an Detroit built orchards, New York, Boston, Chicago scrounged for apples to supplement one or two tree farms.
 

seventieslord

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On the other hand, Dryden played when the gap between the haves and have-nots was the largest it has ever been in history due to rapid expansion. And Montreal was the biggest "have" of them all, due partly to Sam Pollock basically rigging the expansion draft so that Montreal would be hurt less than the other Original 6 teams.

However, his personal numbers (sv%) were very dominant, despite there being examples in history of goalies in excellent situations facing fewer shots and ending up with sv% numbers not nearly as impressive as their GAA (like Brodeur)
 

vadim sharifijanov

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On the other hand, Dryden played when the gap between the haves and have-nots was the largest it has ever been in history due to rapid expansion. And Montreal was the biggest "have" of them all, due partly to Sam Pollock basically rigging the expansion draft so that Montreal would be hurt less than the other Original 6 teams.

yeah, it's really hard for me to place dryden because he retired for good right before i was born.

i would say, though, just going by the paper trail that his career has left, that he clearly was a difference maker. how big of a difference is up for debate, but i think it's reasonable to look at the habs teams from 1970 to 1975 and say dryden was the difference between winning and not winning the cup.

his first year, he gets called up, rattles off six straight wins. sure, without those 12 points the habs still make the playoffs at the exact same seed. but still, if you prorate the points percentage for the '71 habs' 72 non-dryden games over 78, that's a 92 point team, not a 97 point team. that's also a team that finished with 92 points and didn't make the playoffs the previous season.

so we know what dryden can do when not on the greatest of all the post-expansion teams. conn smythe/cup. the question becomes: how weak/strong were those '71-'73 habs teams that was between dynasties?

not to say those early 70s habs weren't an above average team. with that list of aging hall of famers and really young ones, it looks on paper like a powerhouse, though i don't think it really was. behind almost that exact same team, minus beliveau who had retired, dryden won the calder, finished behind esposito in all-star voting, and behind only orr in hart voting. one of only two seasons in his career he failed to win the cup.

then, before his first retirement, he is the first team all-star, fourth in hart voting, wins his second cup in three years. by '73 you could say the habs are a powerhouse; they were the class of the league in the regular season and of the teams they knocked off in those playoffs, the hawks had lost bobby hull, the flyers didn't have leach yet, parent was in the WHA, and barber wasn't yet barber. but still, dryden was the only player on that team who got significant hart recognition. cournoyer wins the conn smythe and the line of cournoyer/lemaire/big m tears up the playoffs. but while that is a line with three hall of famers, the horses that carried that team (and the '71 team) can't compare to the horses on the frontlines of plante's habs teams, or dryden's later dynasty.

on the other hand, parent appears and absolutely dominates in the small window where dryden is out of the league and returns rusty. then is gone or isn't as good. and during dryden's career he routinely beats out esposito, vachon, and guys like that, but his goalie competition is pretty weak relative to other eras.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

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International recognition:

Dominik Hasek
•World Championships Best Goalie (1987, 1989)
•World Championships All Star (1987, 1989, 1990)
•Olympics Best Goalie (1998)
•Olympics Gold in 1998

Martin Brodeur
•World Cup All Star (2004)
•Olympic Gold in 2002, World Cup Gold in 2004

I believe Hasek and Brodeur are the only candidates with significant International accolades - though I've argued before that Patrick Roy was excellent in 1998.

Dryden played a decent sample of games against the USSR, but generally didn't perform up to his lofty NHL standards.

Sawchuk, Hall, and Plante pre-date NHL involvement in tournaments.
 
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TheDevilMadeMe

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Hasek's finishes for the Golden Hockey Stick Award for best player in Czechoslovakia

Czechoslovakia gave out the Golden Hockey Stick Award (Zlatá hokejka) for the best player in Czechoslovakia. It now goes to the best Czech player anywhere in the world, but when Hasek played in Czechoslovakia, it was for best player in the Czechoslovak Elite League.

Here are Hasek's finishes and his competition before he came to the NHL:

1983
1. Vincent Lukáč VSŽ Košice
2. Jiří Králík Dukla Jihlava
3. Jiří Lála Motor České Budějovice
4. Igor Liba Dukla Jihlava
5. Pavel Richter Sparta Praha
6. Ladislav Svozil TJ Vítkovice
7. Milan Chalupa Dukla Jihlava
8. Dušan Pašek Slovan Bratislava
9. Dárius Rusnák Slovan Bratislava
10. Dominik Hašek Tesla Pardubice

1984
1. Igor Liba Dukla Jihlava
2. Vladimír Růžička CHZ Litvínov
3. Milan Chalupa Dukla Jihlava
4. Dárius Rusnák Slovan Bratislava
5. Vladimír Caldr Motor České Budějovice
6. Jaromír Šindel Dukla Jihlava
7. Vincent Lukáč VSŽ Košice
8. Arnold Kadlec CHZ Litvínov
9. Dominik Hašek Tesla Pardubice
10. Pavel Richter Sparta Praha

1985
1. Jiří Králík TJ Gottwaldov
2. Igor Liba VSŽ Košice
3. Miloslav Hořava Dukla Jihlava
4. Petr Rosol Dukla Jihlava
5. Vincent Lukáč VSŽ Košice
6. Vladimír Růžička CHZ Litvínov
7. Petr Klíma Dukla Jihlava
8. Jiří Lála Motor České Budějovice
9. Dárius Rusnák Slovan Bratislava
10. Antonín Stavjaňa Dukla Trenčín

1986
1. Vladimír Růžička CHZ Litvínov
2. Igor Liba VSŽ Košice
3. Jiří Hrdina Sparta Praha
4. Dominik Hašek Tesla Pardubice
5. Petr Rosol CHZ Litvínov
6. Antonín Stavjaňa TJ Gottwaldov
7. Mojmír Božik VSŽ Košice
8. Peter Slanina VSŽ Košice
9. Ján Vodila VSŽ Košice
10. Jaromír Šindel Sparta Praha

1987
1. Dominik Hašek Tesla Pardubice
2. Jiří Hrdina Sparta Praha
3. Dušan Pašek Slovan Bratislava
4. Jiří Šejba Tesla Pardubice
5. Jaromír Šindel Sparta Praha
6. David Volek Sparta Praha
7. Antonín Stavjaňa TJ Gottwaldov
8. Jaroslav Benák Dukla Jihlava
9. Vladimír Růžička CHZ Litvínov
10. Jiří Doležal Sparta Praha

1988
1. Vladimír Růžička Dukla Trenčín
2. Igor Liba VSŽ Košice
3. Jaromír Šindel Sparta Praha
4. Dušan Pašek Slovan Bratislava
5. Dominik Hašek Tesla Pardubice
6. Peter Slanina VSŽ Košice
7. David Volek Sparta Praha
8. Jiří Lála Motor České Budějovice
9. Petr Bříza Motor České Budějovice
10. Petr Rosol CHZ Litvínov

1989
1. Dominik Hašek Tesla Pardubice
2. Vladimír Růžička CHZ Litvínov
3. Oto Haščák Dukla Trenčín
4. Otakar Janecký Tesla Pardubice
5. Jiří Šejba Tesla Pardubice
6. Peter Slanina VSŽ Košice
7. Vladimír Svitek VSŽ Košice
8. František Procházka CHZ Litvínov
9. Jerguš Bača VSŽ Košice
10. Bedřich Ščerban Dukla Jihlava

1990
1. Dominik Hašek Dukla Jihlava
2. Robert Reichel CHZ Litvínov
3. Jiří Doležal Sparta Praha
4. Jaromír Jágr Poldi Kladno
5. Petr Bříza Sparta Praha
6. Jerguš Bača VSŽ Košice
7. Robert Holík Dukla Jihlava
8. Oto Haščák Dukla Trenčín
9. Bedřich Ščerban Dukla Jihlava
10. Peter Bondra VSŽ Košice

Hasek was 16 years old when he started playing in the CEL at the beginning of 1981-82. The first time he received any recognition for the Golden Stick was in 1983, after he turned 18 years old. He does not appear to have been considered a top 5 player in the CEL until 1986, when he turned 21 years old. 1987, when Hasek turned 22, is the first time he was considered the best player in the CEL, and the first time he was selected All Star at the World Championships.

Keep in mind that most of the best players from CEL either retired (Martinec, Novy, Pospisil) or left for the NHL (Stastnys) around 1980, so the CEL of the 1980s was probably mainly AHL quality with a few true standouts who didn't come over.

The Golden Hockey Stick Voting Records are consistent with the idea that Hasek was likely capable of being a good NHL starter beginning in 1986 at the age of 21, about the same age Roy and Brodeur got their starts in the NHL. By 1987 at the age of 22, he may have been capable of being a star in the NHL once he adjusted to the different style.

Keep in mind that Patrick Roy was born in the same calender year as Hasek, and he was a rookie in 1985-86.
 
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TheDevilMadeMe

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Does anyone not have Hasek at #1?

I don't. I usually have Roy first, with Hasek and Plante fighting it out over second.

I'm open for arguments re: Hall vs Plante, though like I said, right now I see Hall as basically Brodeur without as much playoff success.
 
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vecens24

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I didn't have Hasek number one, didn't have Brodeur top 5 (although TDMM is pretty close to convincing me I was wrong there), and do have Dryden as my clear #7 here.

As far as the top 4 is concerned, I literally could see my vote going from say (and this isn't the order I had it in initially) Plante, Sawchuk, Roy, Hasek to Hasek, Sawchuk, Plante, Roy to Roy, Plante, Hasek Sawchuk. The order of my top 4 right now is pretty much completely and totally up for grabs.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

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Honestly, I've become less and less impressed by Sawchuk the more I look at him. Count me among those who used to think of Sawchuk as the best goalie of all time before Roy passed him. This board convinced me to rank Plante over Sawchuk a few years ago. When I submitted my list, it's the first time I ever ranked Hall over Sawchuk and I'm leaning that way again.

HockeyOutsider's recent thread about O6 point allocation really drove in just how mediocre Sawchuk was after he left Detroit for the first time.
 

seventieslord

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Honestly, I've become less and less impressed by Sawchuk the more I look at him. When I submitted my list, it's the first time I ever ranked Hall over Sawchuk and I'm leaning that way again.

There's really very little there outside of 1951-1955, eh? And his team had three of the best 5 forwards in the league - one the best by far, and by far the best defenseman.
 

vadim sharifijanov

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has there been a thread where sawchuk's legacy has been thoroughly hashed out and his legacy (which for most of my life was solidly top three) seriously reevaluated? possibly from the HOH top 100?
 

Bear of Bad News

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I had Sawchuk #5, and I'm not sure that I would have had him anywhere but the top spot a few years ago.

(For what it's worth, I had Plante/Hasek/Roy/Hall/Sawchuk, Brodeur 8th, Dryden 12th).
 

ContrarianGoaltender

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I had Sawchuk ranked last out of these 7 goalies on my original list, and although I'm debating swapping him with Dryden or Brodeur I might very well leave him there unless somebody provides some very good arguments in his favour. I agree that his post-1955 career was quite mediocre, and I am not nearly as impressed by his peak as some others apparently are. When you look at what other goalies like Lumley and Hall were doing in Detroit during the nine year period where the Red Wings dominated the NHL, Sawchuk's peak looks very good but not all-time elite to me.

Sawchuk is last in career GVT among these goalies, in both the regular season and the playoffs, both in total and on a per-game basis. He also has easily the worst save percentage relative to league average, even if estimates are included for the pre-1953 seasons, although it would have been tougher to outperform league average in the original six than in the expansion era.

It's possible that Sawchuk was a truly great goalie who was derailed by alcoholism. But it also seems at least remotely possible that he was a Johnny Bower or Gump Worsley with an inflated reputation from playing five full seasons on an all-time great dominant team.
 

Ohashi_Jouzu*

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I give Hasek essentially zero credit for his play after he left the NHL for the last time. He had already lost his starting job in the NHL due to deteriorating play, and there was no indication that he was ever going to get it back. How to evaluate his time before becoming an NHL starter is an interesting question, however.

I don't know about all of that. What you call "deteriorating play", I call dealing with a repeat nagging hip/groin injury as a 40+ year old. I mean, don't you remember how good he was up to and including the '07 playoffs? Fast forward to early '07/08, and an October injury to that hip that causes him to miss 4 games. Fast forward to February and a hip flexor injury that sidelines him for another 10. He comes back (probably early), but then in March tweaks his back and misses another couple of games. Announces retirement from NHL in June. That all happened in just one season - and turned out to be his last in the NHL.

But... he takes a full year off from hockey to recover. Comes out of retirement at age 44 to play at home in Pardubice, wins Goalie of the Year, Player of the Year, and Playoff MVP in the Czech league. Moves back up a step to the KHL the very next year, and is an all-star (lackluster playoffs, tho). How much are you really willing to say his "actual" level of play dropped? Keep in mind that his injury history is well documented, as is his renewed success upon recovering and resting on his terms afterwards. And this is in his mid-40s at this point, mind you!
 
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Dennis Bonvie

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...Not that much.

To me, it ends up being something like :

1-2-3

4
5

6-7

1-2

3-4-5

6-7

This is how I had it before this discusion. I didn't have Brodeur in my top 7 (big surprise, eh?) But that 5 is now certainly leaning toward the next group.

I don't think anyone here was around to see much of the prime Sawchuk play. With his drinking problem added to that, he becomes the most speculative case in this group.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

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I don't know about all of that. What you call "deteriorating play", I call dealing with a repeat nagging hip/groin injury as a 40+ year old. I mean, don't you remember how good he was up to and including the '07 playoffs? Fast forward to early '07/08, and an October injury to that hip that causes him to miss 4 games. Fast forward to February and a hip flexor injury that sidelines him for another 10. He comes back (probably early), but then in March tweaks his back and misses another couple of games. Announces retirement from NHL in June. That all happened in just one season - and turned out to be his last in the NHL.

But... he takes a full year off from hockey to recover. Comes out of retirement at age 44 to play at home in Pardubice, wins Goalie of the Year, Player of the Year, and Playoff MVP in the Czech league. Moves back up a step to the KHL the very next year, and is an all-star (lackluster playoffs, tho). How much are you really willing to say his "actual" level of play dropped? Keep in mind that his injury history is well documented, as is his renewed success upon recovering and resting on his terms afterwards. And this is in his mid-40s at this point, mind you!

NHL has more games per season, is faster paced, and with much better competition. I just don't see Hasek being anything more than a backup in the NHL if he stayed.

He only played more than 43 games once since 2001-02, that being 56 games in 2006-07. In his final NHL season (2007-08), he played 41 games with a 0.902 save percentage and lost his job to Osgood very early in the playoffs.

I really don't see what playing well in a lesser league adds to his resume when we saw that he was barely an NHL starter anymore when he left.

I think that people who say Hasek had less longevity than Roy or Brodeur are wrongly neglecting the time he was an international superstar from the mid 80s on. But I also think that people who say that he has more longevity are also missing the big picture. If Roy had spent 6 seasons in the AHL after leaving the NHL, does that make him a better player? I don't think so.

Hasek's KHL accomplishments are nice, but do you think the Czech Republic would ever consider him for the World Championships based on his play there? The last time he played internationally for them was 2006.

I don't think any of Roy, Brodeur, or Hasek has a significant longevity advantage over the others. We don't give Chelios a longevity advantage over Bourque just for sticking around, do we?

Dryden is the only outlier here when it comes to longevity as an NHL-calibre player IMO.
 

Canadiens1958

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Comparables CEL / AHL / IHL

Hasek was 16 years old when he started playing in the CEL at the beginning of 1981-82. The first time he received any recognition for the Golden Stick was in 1983, after he turned 18 years old. He does not appear to have been considered a top 5 player in the CEL until 1986, when he turned 21 years old. 1987, when Hasek turned 22, is the first time he was considered the best player in the CEL, and the first time he was selected All Star at the World Championships.

Keep in mind that most of the best players from CEL either retired (Martinec, Novy, Pospisil) or left for the NHL (Stastnys) around 1980, so the CEL of the 1980s was probably mainly AHL quality with a few true standouts who didn't come over.

The Golden Hockey Stick Voting Records are consistent with the idea that Hasek was likely capable of being a good NHL starter beginning in 1986 at the age of 21, about the same age Roy and Brodeur got their starts in the NHL. By 1987 at the age of 22, he may have been capable of being a star in the NHL once he adjusted to the different style.

Keep in mind that Patrick Roy was born in the same calender year as Hasek, and he was a rookie in 1985-86.

Comparing the CEL / AHL / IHL is rather interesting. Lets try one season the 1984-65. This season laid the foundation for the 1985-86 season which in Europe produced the 1986 WHC rosters and the 1986 NHL SC competition rosters.

The 1986 WHC Czech team featured Dominik Hasek, supported by Holecek and Dzurilla in goal. Team disappointed at the WHC, not qualifying for the Final round, losing to Poland and West Germany but won the Consolation Round. Dominik Hasek was 2-3-1 in the preliminary round 3-0-0 in the Final, 3.08 GAA

http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/h/hasekdo01.html

1984-85 AHL featured a 13 team league, prospect driven, regulars included at least 12 defensemen in the 20-22 year old grouping that went onto play at least 500 NHL games including Ken Daneyko, Steve Smith,David Shaw,Marty McSorley, plus forwards like Joel Otto. 1985 Sherbrooke team bolstered by a junior eligible Patrick Roy for the playoffs, won the Calder Trophy. Patrick Roy produced a 2.89 playoff GAA.

The 1985 AHL championship team contributed app 12 players to the 1986 NHL SC Championship Montreal Canadiens including Patrick Roy. regular season 3.35 GAA / .875 SV%, playoffs 1.92 GAA / .923 SV% plus a Conn Smythe.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/r/roypa01.html

Fast forward to the 1990-91 season. Dominik Hasek arrived in North America but was he NHL ready or even North American Hockey ready. He played 5 NHL games and 33 IHL games - weaker than the 1985 AHL.Five seasons had passed.

The jump from playing junior to playing with men is not easy. Evidenced by Martin Brodeur:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/b/brodema01.html

in Utica - AHL GAA > 4.00 with lower GP numbers than junior.

A comparison has been attempted at junior or pre NHL level contributions and honours. Brodeur - Hasek - Roy triangle. Expand the consideration to include Pat Riggin, Tom Barrasso, Grant Fuhr, Dan Blackburn, Don Edwards for starters. Factor in that playing NHL as a junior precludes junior and minor pro awards. Ask how a pre 20 year old Tom Barrasso winning the Calder, Vezina, Jennings compare to CEL awards.

Ask when exactly were goalies NHL ready.
 

Rob Scuderi

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Honestly, I've become less and less impressed by Sawchuk the more I look at him. Count me among those who used to think of Sawchuk as the best goalie of all time before Roy passed him. This board convinced me to rank Plante over Sawchuk a few years ago. When I submitted my list, it's the first time I ever ranked Hall over Sawchuk and I'm leaning that way again.

HockeyOutsider's recent thread about O6 point allocation really drove in just how mediocre Sawchuk was after he left Detroit for the first time.

TCG basically covered it, but none of the other 6 goalies have a stretch of so many poor years like Sawchuk did. What can we say about him after those first few excellent years in Detroit?

He played well splitting time and in the playoffs with a dynastic club built on its defense?

I ranked him over Hall in my initial list but it seems hard to justify without a ridiculous weight on playoff performances.
 
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