Round 2, Vote 1 (2009 update)

pappyline

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Jul 3, 2005
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At this point, my list is as follows:

1.Orr
2.Lemieux
3.Howe
4.Gretzky
5.Hull

6.Shore
7.Morenz
8.Harvey
9.Richard
10.Beliveau

#1 & #5 are fixed. Will listen to arguments regarding 2-4 and 6-10.
 

Hockey Outsider

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Jan 16, 2005
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It looks like most people are ranking Shore above Harvey, but I think the Canadien was the better defenseman and better player overall.

Offense. Their styles were very different (Shore was an aggressive rusher while Harvey was a somewhat more conservative playmaker & PP quarterback, though he was great on the transition). In terms of results they are quite close but Harvey is slightly ahead for the following reasons:

Compared to other defensemen. Based on Pnep’s research (source) we see that Harvey spent more seasons ranking among the league’s top five highest-scoring defensemen (12 seasons for Harvey vs 10 for Shore). Eliminating identical finishes (1-1-1-1-2-3-5) we’re left with 1-1-4 for Shore and 2-3-3-3-5 for Harvey. Perhaps a slight peak edge for Shore but overall Harvey does better.

Comparison to top scorers: Shore finished 10th, 10th, 13th and 20th in the NHL in scoring; Harvey finished 11th, 13th and 17th. Shore gets the edge here.

Compared to the rest of the league. During their best five years, Shore (1929-33) ranked 17th in the league in scoring, while Harvey (1954-58) ranked 11th. During their best ten years, Shore (1927-36) ranked 16th, while Harvey (1952-61) ranked 13th. Harvey gets the edge here.

Conclusion: it’s close but Harvey a slightly better offensive player than Shore.

Defense: defensive ability is notoriously hard to analyze, especially given that few people here have seen either player play on a consistent basis.

It’s generally accepted that Harvey is one of the best shutdown defensemen in hockey history (perhaps even the best). He’s described as a player who “defended tenaciously, blocked shots and intimidated the opposition†(source) He had the “uncanny talent of either speeding up a game or putting the brakes on it†(source). He was “was so superb in one on one defensive battles that he would routinely steal the puck off the attacker as though he were picking cherries. He would rarely be beaten, and his teammates knew it†(source). I'm pretty sure "Ultimate Hockey" picked Doug Harvey as the best defensive player of the 1950s but can somebody with a copy of the book please confirm?

Eddie Shore was not even regarded as the best defensive player of his era. Although he was known as a good offensive player, even during his absolute peak (1933), contemporaries thought that there were several other defensemen in the league who were superior defensively (ie King Clancy, Lionel Hitchman, Ching Johnson). Source: Globe & Mail, April 20, 1933.

Conclusion: Harvey is the better defensive player.

Playoffs: I think it’s generally accepted that Harvey was the superior playoff performer but here’s a chart showing just how important Harvey was the to the Habs dynasty (source). Harvey was, by a large margin, the player who was most likely to raise his level of offense during the playoffs, even more so than Richard, Beliveau, Geoffrion, etc.

During the span of his playoff career (1927-1940) Shore was 23rd in scoring (4th in games played). During the span of his playoff career (1949-62, excluding 1968), Harvey was 7th in playoff scoring (1st in games played).

Conclusion: Harvey was the better playoff performer.

Awards:

Hart trophy. I know what you’re all thinking “Shore won four Hart trophies, Harvey has none, so Shore was obviously betterâ€. Not so fast! Shore played in an era when, for whatever reason, defensemen earned far more Hart trophy votes.

The following defensemen were Hart finalists during Shore’s career: Clancy, Clapper, Colville, Conacher, Coulter, Dutton, Gardiner, Goodfellow, Hitchman, Johnson, Seibert, Shore.

The following defensemen were Hart finalists during Harvey’s career: Harvey, Howell, Kelly, Orr.

It’s obvious that Hart trophy voters had exponentially lower standards for voting for defensemen during Shore’s era, both in terms of quantity & quality of defensemen they'd vote for. In the past sixty years, only one defenseman (Orr, obviously) has more than Harvey’s five seasons as a Hart trophy finalist. Harvey did the best he can do given the bias of voters over the past six decades. The argument that Shore was better because he did better in Hart voting is false, misleading, and wrong!

All-star selections: Shore was selected to seven first all-star teams and one second all-star team. Harvey was selected to ten first all-star teams and one second all-star team. However Shore had a few strong years before 1931 (the year the NHL first created all-star teams) so the two players are probably even in this category.

Overall. In conclusion, Harvey was clearly the better defensive player, he was better in the playoffs, and he was slightly better offensively. The main argument for Shore (Hart trophies) isn’t fair based on the voter bias in his era. Harvey was the better hockey player and should be ranked higher on our list.

(Would like to hear any comments especially if you disagree)
 
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Nalyd Psycho

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I think you have the voter bias backwards. It's not that Shore benefited, it's that Harvey was hurt by a voter bias. (And Colville didn't play defence until a few years after Shore retired.) From all my research of the 1930's, near as I can tell, defence was the dominant position. After Gardiner died, goaltending struggled. Forwards were having the same kind of odd parity that existed in the end of the dead puck era that indicates a lack of high end quality.
 

FissionFire

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HO, your post gave me flashbacks to reading the Mike Green vs. Nicklas Lidstrom Norris debates this past season. Excellent stuff there. I'm in your camp thinking that Harvey is superior to Shore. I'd also toss out that Shore on a few occasions showed he could be taken off his game and play reckless (the Ace Bailey incident being the famous). Harvey was just a machine from what I've read and nothing could rattle him.
 

Canadiens1958

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HO, your post gave me flashbacks to reading the Mike Green vs. Nicklas Lidstrom Norris debates this past season. Excellent stuff there. I'm in your camp thinking that Harvey is superior to Shore. I'd also toss out that Shore on a few occasions showed he could be taken off his game and play reckless (the Ace Bailey incident being the famous). Harvey was just a machine from what I've read and nothing could rattle him.

Spearing the Rangers Red Sullivan showed that Harvey could be rattled as well.
 

Pear Juice

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HO, your post gave me flashbacks to reading the Mike Green vs. Nicklas Lidstrom Norris debates this past season. Excellent stuff there. I'm in your camp thinking that Harvey is superior to Shore. I'd also toss out that Shore on a few occasions showed he could be taken off his game and play reckless (the Ace Bailey incident being the famous). Harvey was just a machine from what I've read and nothing could rattle him.
From what I've read about Eddie Shore it seems that his game _was_ the reckless game. I reckon he's the kind of guy that just gets better as you taunt him. One might probably be able to push him over the top at a few occasions, but that happens with every one. I wouldn't call it getting him off his game though, seems more like his own strengths coming back at him.
 

Sturminator

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Spearing the Rangers Red Sullivan showed that Harvey could be rattled as well.

I think you're wrong here. Harvey used the spear quite frequently in his career. He also broke Gordie Howe's ribs with a spear, and so angered Andy Bathgate that the latter ghostwrote an article about the rise of spearing in the NHL. The result of Harvey's spear of Sullivan was more spectacular (and almost certainly unintentional - Harvey was a much dirtier player than is commonly recognized, but I doubt he intended to endanger Sullivan's life), but it was nothing out of character for him, and it's unclear if he was even penalized on the play.

For such a physical, intimidating defenseman, Harvey drew remarkably few penalties. Eddie Shore, whose PIMs spiked almost comically in the playoffs, was by far the more out of control player.
 

Sturminator

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What I meant by the above (but didn't say explicitly) is that Harvey's brutality appears to have been quite calculated, to include the spear of Sullivan. So the story goes, Sullivan had been annoying Plante all night long and Harvey warned him that there would be a price for his behavior. Red continued, and Harvey punished him. In light of the man's career as a whole, none of Harvey's actions during that incident seem unusual or out of control to me.

I don't see Harvey vs. Shore as being much of a debate, to be honest. The better argument is probably Harvey vs. Hull for that 5th spot. I fail to see what makes Hull clearly the more dominant player, and yet his placement at 5th seems to be accepted as canon by many posters here.
 

tommygunn

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Dec 2, 2008
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The way I have it, so far..
  1. Gretzky
  2. Howe
  3. Orr
  4. Lemieux
  5. Hull
  6. Richard
  7. Morenz
  8. Beliveau
  9. Harvey
  10. Shore
 

MXD

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HO basically wrote all that I could think of, except for one thing...

Part of the reason why we acknowledge Gretzky and Howe in the Top-3 is that they were up against of the very best players (Lemieux and Richard) during their primes, or very close to their primes. It's not the only reason, but one could make a point that Gretz is no.1 because he had beaten the no.4 quite a few times. Lemieux's prime might have come a little later, but still, a 21-yo Lemieux wasn't exactly a slouch. Same thing for Howe : Richard was post-primeish, but still an excellent RW.

Then comes Harvey. I can't think of another player, amongst those listed, that FLAT OUT dominated another player (when it comes to Norris voting, at least) player, while both of them were in their primes. Such is what happened to Doug Harvey and Red Kelly. Kelly did have something of a lead early on, but the comparison becomes somewhat lopsided when the first Norris award was awarded. For the record, I do consider Red Kelly as the 6th best D-Men ever (and the best D-Men who doned the Red Wings T-Shirt), even though I take in consideration his stint with the Leafs at F when doing so.

Not to mention, for the few games that I saw him play, that he always seemed to be best Montreal player on the ice.
 

lextune

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My list has also changed a bit since I submitted it....

My current top ten:

1. Gretzky
2. Orr
3. Howe
4. Lemieux
5. Hull
6. Shore
7. Harvey
8. Beliveau
9. Richard
10. Bourque
 

lextune

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I really want to start up the debate about getting Bourque into the top ten.
He is the "Gordie Howe of Defensemen" (if you will), and had a streak of dominance that is almost beyond belief.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

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I really want to start up the debate about getting Bourque into the top ten.
He is the "Gordie Howe of Defensemen" (if you will), and had a streak of dominance that is almost beyond belief.

It's possible he could sneak into my top 10, but the problem with that is that he's generally considered the 4th best dman of all time, and having 4 of the top 10 spots occupied by dmen seems a little much.

Also, he's not quite the Gordie Howe of defensemen. He has the longevity, but Howe at his peak was dominating the competition at a Lemieux-like level. Even if you pretend Gretzky and Lemieux never existed, the best you could say about Bourque is that he might have been the best player in the league by a small margin.
 

lextune

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Also, he's not quite the Gordie Howe of defensemen. He has the longevity, but Howe at his peak was dominating the competition at a Lemieux-like level. Even if you pretend Gretzky and Lemieux never existed, the best you could say about Bourque is that he might have been the best player in the league by a small margin.

True enough but it was the best analogy I could think of, lol.

It's possible he could sneak into my top 10, but the problem with that is that he's generally considered the 4th best dman of all time, and having 4 of the top 10 spots occupied by dmen seems a little much.
I have him as the 4th best as well....(obviously). And having 4 of the top ten be D-Men seems perfect to me, (i.e. - 6 forwards, 4 defensemen. Two perfect teams....(minus goalies though :P )

Seriously though I can't see "having too many defensemen" as an argument to keep out Ray....

What if we had three other Orr-like figures in hockey history....?

The best is still the best.
 

Dennis Bonvie

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At this point, my list is as follows:

1.Orr
2.Lemieux
3.Howe
4.Gretzky
5.Hull

6.Shore
7.Morenz
8.Harvey
9.Richard
10.Beliveau

#1 & #5 are fixed. Will listen to arguments regarding 2-4 and 6-10.

In the top 5, I have Howe and Mario switched.

To me Howe was a much more complete player and nearly as dominant offensively.
Led the NHL in goals 5 times, 2nd 5 times. Led the league in assists 3 times, in the top five 17 times.

Howe was brutally physical and just plain scary in an era when it was hard to intimidate anyone.

In the bottom 5, I still like Richard at #6. Maybe the best ever at virtually willing himself to the net, often to win the game, often in the playoffs. His playoff goals for that era are just off the charts (82 in 133 games).

I would put Morenz behind Harvey & Beliveau. But that's just because I'm not really sure how good Morenz was. I know how good Harvey & Beliveau were.
 

tommygunn

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A couple people have Gretzky at #4. I'm curious as to the reasoning behind this.. ??
 

DaveG

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#1 Gretzky
#2 Orr
#3 Howe
#4 Lemieux
#5 Hull
#6 Shore
#7 Harvey
#8 Beliveau
#9 Richard
#10 Plante

Last time, the Goalie Debate started between 11-15 since no goalie made the top 10. Was a good debate too. Changed my perspective on things. I continually flip flop between Plante, Hasek and Roy now, but as with last time, I am determined to have 1 goalie in my top 10.

My list has changed quite a bit even since submitting the last one to you FF.

Add Sawchuk to that list for me. Hall at the end of the top 20. But those 4 (Sawchuk, Plante, Hasek, Roy) are my top 4 as of right now goalie wise, although neither is going to crack my top 10. Assuming that all are still available next round, which looks to be the trend judging by peoples early top 10s, all 4 will likely be within 5 or 6 spots of eachother.
 

Dennis Bonvie

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A couple people have Gretzky at #4. I'm curious as to the reasoning behind this.. ??

For me, its because of the total lack of physical play and limited defensive ability. At this level, the top 4 ever, I can't have a player that pretty much avoided contact at all cost be my best ever. Old school I guess.
 

lextune

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The "Big Four" are virtually interchangeable depending on what criteria the voter considers most important....

Always thought it was the big three that was interchangeable...
Which immediately begs the question....Who are the big three? lol.

If one considered pure skill and peak as the most important aspect in determining the "Best Ever"; it would be tough to keep out Mario or Bobby. Whereas if one values longevity of achievement, or consistency of excellence, Wayne and Gordie stand above both of them.
 

tommygunn

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For me, its because of the total lack of physical play and limited defensive ability. At this level, the top 4 ever, I can't have a player that pretty much avoided contact at all cost be my best ever. Old school I guess.
That's fair enough to keep him from #1.. and behind Howe and Orr. But, you have him behind Lemieux as well, who wasn't known to mix it up either, nor be all that great in his own end. I wouldn't consider Lemieux to be old-school.

Moreso than Lemieux, I feel Gretzky's incredible offensive skills and dominance more than made up for anything he lacked in the physical and defense aspects of his game.

Although I don't personally agree with it, I can see where arguments can be made for having Howe and Orr above Gretzky. I just don't see how Gretzky could be kept out of the top 3 though.
 

lextune

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Most of you know all of this already of course, but I will make a brief recap and await arguments against:

Bourque has the record for 1st Team All-Star selections; thirteen. He has six other 2nd team All-Star selections. All 19 selections coming against what many consider to be some of the toughest competition in NHL history.

He was a 1st Team All-Star his rookie season and also in his last season (22 years later.....)

His peak was incredible. He has one Hart runner up to Gretzky, and should have been the first DMan to win it since Orr in '90 when he was, (quite literally), robbed by a few dishonest Edmonton journalists. That 89/90 season is almost universally seen as the best season by a blueliner since Orr.

No Defenseman (any positional player for that matter), has ever carried a team as long Ray carried the Bruins.
 

seventieslord

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Add Sawchuk to that list for me. Hall at the end of the top 20. But those 4 (Sawchuk, Plante, Hasek, Roy) are my top 4 as of right now goalie wise, although neither is going to crack my top 10. Assuming that all are still available next round, which looks to be the trend judging by peoples early top 10s, all 4 will likely be within 5 or 6 spots of eachother.

Sawchuk's not in their league. The best thing in his favour is that contemporaries seem to regard him the highest. But all-star teams, save percentages, and instances of great/good/mediocre/bad playoff years don't support this.
 

Dennis Bonvie

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That's fair enough to keep him from #1.. and behind Howe and Orr. But, you have him behind Lemieux as well, who wasn't known to mix it up either, nor be all that great in his own end. I wouldn't consider Lemieux to be old-school.

Moreso than Lemieux, I feel Gretzky's incredible offensive skills and dominance more than made up for anything he lacked in the physical and defense aspects of his game.

Although I don't personally agree with it, I can see where arguments can be made for having Howe and Orr above Gretzky. I just don't see how Gretzky could be kept out of the top 3 though.

I honestly think Lemieux was a better player than Gretzky. Obviously, not by much.
But he did make contact a lot more and to me was a better goal scorer while still being in at least the same class as Gretzky as a playmaker.
 

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