Uberpecker
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- Mar 3, 2011
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I considered your proposal for him an underpayment. Don't think McCabe+3rd gets it done.
Roster speculation part XIV
- Thread starter joshjull
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I considered your proposal for him an underpayment. Don't think McCabe+3rd gets it done.
I agree I'm not sure the Sabres have the trade-able assets required to pry him from the Jets though I agree he's be a near perfect fit for us. Unless a better defense-man is coming back our first is off the table for me. After that you're looking at 2nds, Baptistes, Cornells etc which likely don't get the Jets motivated to move him. I'd part with one of Pysyk or McCabe for him but what's the plus gonna be after that? is it still a 2nd? If so the price begins to create more holes than it fills for me...
On another note in a fantasy land we manage to pry a package of Enstrom and Lowry from the Jets...
Uberpecker
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- Mar 3, 2011
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I agree I'm not sure the Sabres have the trade-able assets required to pry him from the Jets though I agree he's be a near perfect fit for us. Unless a better defense-man is coming back our first is off the table for me. After that you're looking at 2nds, Baptistes, Cornells etc which likely don't get the Jets motivated to move him. I'd part with one of Pysyk or McCabe for him but what's the plus gonna be after that? is it still a 2nd? If so the price begins to create more holes than it fills for me...
On another note in a fantasy land we manage to pry a package of Enstrom and Lowry from the Jets...
2016 1st + for Brodin
2017 1st + for Enstrom
Pluses being Pysyk, McCabe, 2nds, Cornel...
I can live with two drafts without a 1st if that fixes the blueline short- AND longterm.
In the perfect world I do both...snag a guy like chychrun and trade that 2017 1st+ for that stabilizing vet.
There's no guarantee that he is available when the Sabres pick (i'm assuming he won't be). After that theres no guarantee he turns out to be what most people expect at the NHL level. And finally even if he does reach potential - it will be a number of years away.
BTW in addition to the above I think Chychrun is my choice for the Sabres in this draft class as well.
IMO this team is ready to take the next step & honestly I think they are further along than most realise.
If you can get a guy like Brodin who:
1) would seem to fit a number of team needs
2) is NHL proven yet still in his early 20s
3) is signed to a very reasonable contract
4) may be made available for trade by his club
You do everything you can to get him IMO.
I'd personally add to the Sabres first (though not heavily) in a potential deal for Brodin.
I'm absolutely against moving a 1st for Enstrom at this point. Brodin? Ok. We're a bottom 10 team still. I don't mind moving our 1st if its for a core piece going forward, but Enstrom is a 2 year rental. We aren't going to be contenders next year.
Zen Arcade
Bigger than Kiss
Hey guys, I was just browsing out of boredom and figured I'd give a Pittsburgh perspective about Dumo/Lovejoy.
Dumoulin has absolutely carried that pairing and made Lovejoy look better than he is. Dumoulin has been the Pens' most consistent and reliable defenseman all season long, he's been a stabilizing presence for anyone he's been paired with.
A lot of Pens fans hate Lovejoy because of who he was traded for, I don't because it's not like it was his fault. That being said, he's still just a bog standard third pairing defenseman. He's adequate at a bunch of stuff but he has no real standout skills.
The Pens will almost certainly let him walk in the off season , whereas Dumoulin will be looking at a healthy raise.
The sky isn't going to fall if you sign Lovejoy, but I'd be very hesitant to give him more than he's making now.
Dumoulin has absolutely carried that pairing and made Lovejoy look better than he is. Dumoulin has been the Pens' most consistent and reliable defenseman all season long, he's been a stabilizing presence for anyone he's been paired with.
A lot of Pens fans hate Lovejoy because of who he was traded for, I don't because it's not like it was his fault. That being said, he's still just a bog standard third pairing defenseman. He's adequate at a bunch of stuff but he has no real standout skills.
The Pens will almost certainly let him walk in the off season , whereas Dumoulin will be looking at a healthy raise.
The sky isn't going to fall if you sign Lovejoy, but I'd be very hesitant to give him more than he's making now.
NotABadPeriod
ForFriendshipDikembe
- Oct 28, 2006
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I'm OK with moving a first for either guy, but not for both. In the cap era, you NEED to have cheap impact players on ELCs to step in and replace the guys who get priced out and dealt away or lost in FA. That's the biggest problem Pittsburgh had: they kept trading their picks and weren't able to build the supporting cast for their high priced stars. And your best chance of getting those guys are with first rounders.
Trading one pick for a guy who can help now is fine. Trading consecutive years 1st rounders can put the franchise in a bind longterm.
I agree but thats the gamble you gotta take, I dont personally see Minnesota dealing Brodin which is maybe what leaves me reluctant to consider it. If our pick is around that 6-9 range then sure I'd flip it for Brodin. Considering I don't see that trade being a legit possibility I take best avilable d-man and make a trade with next years pick for a guy of enstroms ilk if not better.
tsujimoto74
Moderator
- May 28, 2012
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Valid thing to be wary of. I'm also not sure we need to add 2 top 4 LHD this off-season. I think Gorges and McCabe would both look much better if they each got to drop down a pairing. Gorges is an adequate #4 imo, and McCabe has been fine in stints where he's been more sheltered on the 3rd pairing. Much like Gionta earlier in the year when he was seeing 1st line minutes, the problem with either of those guys isn't that they don't belong in the NHL; it's that they're in roles they shouldn't be.
If we can snag one guy good enough to play with Risto, I'd be 100% OK with the rest of our off-season moves being about adding better depth.
Defensive defensemen aren't appreciated. largely because the aspect of their game that stands out the most is the grenades. Good defensive play, positioning, puck support isn't flashy.
Anaheim fans were just as dismissive of Lovejoy, and when he was traded fowler's game fell off a cliff and took nearly a calendar year to recover and build new chemistry with a new partner.
Zen Arcade
Bigger than Kiss
It's not about flash, because Dumoulin isn't flashy either. Lovejoy doesn't excel in any of the areas you mentioned, he's competent with the right partner but really no more than that.
But hey, you can sign whoever you want, I'm not the free agency police.
It might be a moot point anyway, because Bylsma wasn't a big fan of Lovejoy and Lovejoy said he didn't like playing in Bylsma's system.
My offseason predictions.....
1. I don't know why but I think as long as Stamkos is not resigned, he's going to NYR. Just a gut feeling, big stage, not TO, etc. Again, just a gut feeling. If That is the case, Nash is gone, and kind of cheap. I think he perfectly slides in on the left next to Eichel. Age, pedigree, contract, skills, big body are all perfect for a two year run. (15's first rotating winger aka Pittsburgh) seeing they are going for Stamkos, I don't think roster players go the other way, picks/prospects.
2. There is only one player on the roster who just hasn't found his game, doesn't belong, etc....Moulson. Somethings gonna happen with him, probably trade, if not we have the cap space for another year to bury him. He just doesn't have it.
3. LD... Come on, we all know it'll be addressed. McCabe is a youngin and needs more shelter right now but there are too many times he looks good. Too many names and word is out amongst players the organization is on the rise like their young stars. One UFA & one trade LD. I wouldn't be surprised to see a cap casualty here.
4. Ennis. He's like a free 45 point winger. He'll be back.
5. Fourth line center signing. Legwand is a bit long in the tooth, would be surprised if he comes back.
My take on the season.....A. This season was all about 15 & 23 and they have been superb. They have shown growth, while not being sheltered....amazing. Larson: we know where he should be playing. Same with Foligno. Kane progressed into better than advertised. Girgensons still really doesn't have a home but seems to be put anywhere and do well, although I'd like him to work on his skating and staying on his skates.
I think the maturation of this team is 90% what we need, and a couple tweaks. I also think that huge body Facshing is here to stay so not too many openings. Barring anything, I think we look something like this next year....
Kane - ROR - Fasching
Nash - Eichel - Reinhart
Foligno - Larsson - Gionta (or Ennis, who could do well with these two)
Random thoughts but I can see Nash being a Sabre.
1. I don't know why but I think as long as Stamkos is not resigned, he's going to NYR. Just a gut feeling, big stage, not TO, etc. Again, just a gut feeling. If That is the case, Nash is gone, and kind of cheap. I think he perfectly slides in on the left next to Eichel. Age, pedigree, contract, skills, big body are all perfect for a two year run. (15's first rotating winger aka Pittsburgh) seeing they are going for Stamkos, I don't think roster players go the other way, picks/prospects.
2. There is only one player on the roster who just hasn't found his game, doesn't belong, etc....Moulson. Somethings gonna happen with him, probably trade, if not we have the cap space for another year to bury him. He just doesn't have it.
3. LD... Come on, we all know it'll be addressed. McCabe is a youngin and needs more shelter right now but there are too many times he looks good. Too many names and word is out amongst players the organization is on the rise like their young stars. One UFA & one trade LD. I wouldn't be surprised to see a cap casualty here.
4. Ennis. He's like a free 45 point winger. He'll be back.
5. Fourth line center signing. Legwand is a bit long in the tooth, would be surprised if he comes back.
My take on the season.....A. This season was all about 15 & 23 and they have been superb. They have shown growth, while not being sheltered....amazing. Larson: we know where he should be playing. Same with Foligno. Kane progressed into better than advertised. Girgensons still really doesn't have a home but seems to be put anywhere and do well, although I'd like him to work on his skating and staying on his skates.
I think the maturation of this team is 90% what we need, and a couple tweaks. I also think that huge body Facshing is here to stay so not too many openings. Barring anything, I think we look something like this next year....
Kane - ROR - Fasching
Nash - Eichel - Reinhart
Foligno - Larsson - Gionta (or Ennis, who could do well with these two)
Random thoughts but I can see Nash being a Sabre.
Hell no. Ennis represents everything that line isn't and would totally botch the goal of that line.
SamuraiArt
Balso Par Big John S
Tend to agree on the nature of the FLG line. Not to say that Ennis isn't a good player who can't recover from his injury. But moving him to the "hard to play against" line won't be doing anyone any favors. He's not the type of player that will automatically make everyone around him better. Ennis needs to play with other skilled guys so that he can succeed. Whether that's here in Buffalo or elsewhere is a matter of debate. Personally, I'd give him some time to recover and get settled in. But the trade option will still be on the table next year. Better to hold on to him for now and put him in a good situation. It's not like his trade value will decrease from its current standing...
Heraldic
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- Dec 12, 2013
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I really don't see where this necessity of him needing to be modeled by something is coming from?
If you think that every quality top-4 d-man in this league is either 1) high end scorer or 2) has the defensive game of Hjalmarsson, I really recommend you to watch the league outside of Buffalo and Chigaco games.
Corsi used without a context is as bad as any single stat used without a context.
Muzzin isn't "elite" in anything, yet he still is a quality top-4 guy. Just like Scandella or Brodin for example.
This is a bit rounding a circle, but I recommend you to actually watch the games instead of staring the stats. Muzzin leading the stats in a possession behemoth team means as much as Carlo Colaiacovo having better metrics than Ristolainen.
Legit number one d-man needs to be able to play the 25 minutes a night averagely. Risto is also playing with our best players. I think there is a consensus that the team will improve around him by inner development and outside additions. His start-ratio will get better as the teams' start-ratio gets better. Or do you think it is as easy to get 55 % percent of your starts on o-zone if your team starts 30 % of the starts in o-zone compared to 70 %? Ever thought that? That's also one big issue with you comparing the players stats without understanding the context.
Yeah, and I'm sure you think that Hedman playing only 59 games didn't affect his stats...
You think Coburn or Garrison are high end scorers or are defensively comparable to Hjalmarsson (or Strålman)? You think either of them are "elite" some way?
I addressed this above, but you actually think that Kings start as less on o-zone as Sabres in general?
No, we're not. But we're clearly pretending that a player playing in a certain position makes him something - while it doesn't. Willie Mitchell was far, far more important player on that pairing.
And they would have done it extremely less likely without Mitchell as well.
Most likely McCabe is not going to be the deal breaker. You rather give a piece with comparable value outside of your weak points.
His bad only statistically. But this really reinforces the thought about you not watching actual hockey or at least not understanding too much about it.
The case with Risto's possession numbers is pretty much the same case as his point totals - they will improve as the team around him improves. We made a gigantic leap on PP this season, and Risto's numbers exploded. Sure, he did develop himself clearly this season, but he was playing like that at the end of last season as well.
Risto is not Myers. He's a lot more comparable to the guys like OEL, who seemed to turn out just fine...
But I'm not that surprised you find Myers the suitable comparable in this context...
You've been mostly saying that he is garbage possession player and needs more sheltered minutes. He's not going to learn to play in his current role if he's playing outside of that role.
Not sure which stats you're referring to, but according to the QOC stat, there is only a couple of d-men who are clearly their team's best and are used differently. And everyone of them are significantly better offensively than defensively. Makes you wonder...
Anton Strålman is a not that common late bloomer. And I would like you to be a bit more specific?
You have pretty clearly said that to be a quality top-4 you need to be either high end scorer or Hjalmarsson esque defensive player. That is just total nonsense.
Our best bets at the moment are 1) using our assets to get the young quality LHD 2) if we end up drafting LHD, hoping he will become that 3) hope that McCabe or Guhle becomes that (McCabe is way further on his development, and we most likely don't have the time to wait Guhle fill that spot).
If Bogo or McCabe keep improving like they have done now, there is no reason why they couldn't be the pieces. McCabe either as a partner for Risto or as a partner for Bogo. And if McCabe becomes clearly top-4 caliber, but is not the right type, you can trade him after he has established himself, when his valua is a lot higher.
Husko
Registered User
So on WGR today GMTM said he would like to add to the D corps. Said he'd love to add a 'QB type.'
Thoughts on who this could mean in trade or FA?
Thoughts on who this could mean in trade or FA?
Well I didn't listen too well too it, but I believe he said something about finding a player in a situation like O'Reilly was in, so maybe Krug? Maybe Vatanen to play on his off-hand? Fowler is a year away from being in a contract year, so maybe him?
Guys on contracts, maybe Brodin? Slavin from Carolina could be an under the radar option in my opinion.
Purely my own personal speculation, but I really think Murray will be in on whomever Anaheim decides to move, whether it's Vatanen or Fowler is anyone's guess, but they won't be able to keep all those guys and it will be an interesting decision for the Ducks to make.
If it is a free agent, Goligoski is the only guy I see fitting the bill. To me Campbell stays in Florida for sure.
Props to you on the Slavin name drop.
That dude has stuck out positively in every single shift I've seen him play all year. Positionally sound, head-on-a-swivel guy who looks smart on the breakout and certainly more than competent offensively. He was the true revelation on their blueline this year, and it was quite clear quickly that he was there to stay when they brought him up.
Fourth round pick in the Fail for Nail draft. I assume he is a RFA?
Edit: also, let it be known that I think that kid is already in the upper tier of dmen as it pertains to play in the neutral zone. Stepping up, closing gaps, clogging lanes, pulling the Scott Stevens WeakSide creep, picking off passes... Fun to watch, man. I love me a well-rounded dman.
Grinder44
Registered User
Thank you! Trading a top 10 pick for a soon-to-be 32 year-old who has never scored more than 10 goals in a season with a $5.75m cap hit and who will be a UFA by the time the Sabres should be a real cup contender? I'll pass.
Push Dr Tracksuit
Gerstmann 3:16
- Jun 9, 2012
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Come back with half the top 4 rebuilt with legitimate players and we are a contender next year. His contract also expires when we need his cap room. I'll be incredibly disappointed if that 2017 1st is higher than 20th.
Which is also why I don't think Winn would be interested in a deal built around it. They're 'trying' to win and aren't going rebuild so I don't see a reason why they move on a late 1st 2 years away, that'll end up being a player 2-3 more years away. That's not a deal that is in their time frame.
stokes84
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