Roster/Rumors/Speculation/Trade Talk - 2024-25: Re-Tool, Re-Group, Re-Mix, Re-Build

Oh...I'm sorry - Are there guarantees if Lou keeps doing whatever it is he's doing?

I'd argue there's more of a guarantee that the Isles continue to fade away from Cup contention then if we try a new path. That means not just a new GM, but a total investment into a youth movement that includes elite young talent.

I love every Islander who put on the uniform the last few years and gave us some great memories, but the last thing I want to do is watch (much less pay money to see) aging average talent continue to miss the playoffs...And get nowhere near a top 3 pick.





Here's the problem you're missing...

Both Panthers and Stars' core group of players was/is SO much better than the Isles "core" group. Sure most around here would say our core players are Sorokin, Barzal, Horvat, and Dobson (and yet many want him traded), but compare that to the top 4 players on any contending team and it's a joke how much of a gap there is to even consider this current Isles team close to competing for a Cup

You have to build your core group first...And it needs to be a LOT more talented than what the Isles have. Then you can talk about retooling, but you can't retool if you don't have a foundation. That's why I'd argue the Isles are still "building," and without hitting on a (top) draft pick(s), I don't see how they're going to get that top (young) talent to build there core.


There are no guarantees to anything in anything. All I am saying is that rebuilding is not some magic pill that will make everything better. Whenever you release or trade talent, you get worse. Even if you trade a Kyle Palmieri for a 2nd round pick, you are getting worse. You are trading a bona fide middle 9 player for a lottery ticket. a 2nd round pick has a 25% chance of playing more than 300 games. If you have enough lottery tickets, you may get more Palmieris. My point is that as the number of teams goes up (32 currently), the amount of NHL talent dwindles as well. Furthermore, with the cap going up, there will be less UFAs to sign and trades to be had for salary dump reasons. The sharks and Blackhawks are rebuilding. There appears to be no end in sight.

Rebuilding is a general term that can mean different things. Stripping the team to bare bones and starting from scratch can be painful for a very long time.

To answer your other question, No. I do not believe the way Lou is doing it is correct. His team building strategy is too far the other way. He is afraid to make changes. He signs average players to very long term and refuses to cut bait on players 1 year too early, which is key for sustained success. He takes the above point to an extreme. He is so afraid of the unknown, he overpays for the known and continues to double down on it.

You also point out the Stars as having a better core prior to them being good. Let's take a look.

2019-20 Stars - a very mediocre team and aging (29.4 average age)
Here was their core that year: Seguin, Benn, Heiskanen (20 yo). Their top 2 players were not PPG players either. People thought they were doomed because of how overpaid and slow they looked.
The also had Hintz (23 yo, 33 pts in 60 gp), an aging Radulov (34pts in 60 gp), Pavelski (31 pts in 67), and John Klingberg (32 pts in 58 gp).

The 2021 Stars team wasn't very good either with much of the same core, but you see Jason Robertson introduced.

The following year however, you saw Robertson, Hintz, and Oettinger take a huge step and the team has 98 pts. Ever since then, they've been cultivating their young talent and improving.

The young talent they've amassed are not top picks. Just good scouting and development. Their hit rate for impact players is abnormally high.

So I disagree that they started with a better core but they have done a much better job drafting and developing picks that you didn't have to tank for even while having untradable assets like Seguin and Benn.
 
I wonder what it would take to pry Howard out of Tampa.

Addendum...

Howard is not the only one in this position.

Charlie Stramel and Tom Willander look like they're not ready to sign with their NHL teams while an underrated Jake Richard (45 points for UCONN) isn't ready to sign with Buffalo.

If the desire for these players is to be part of an organization with little interior competition for future jobs, then the NYI have got to be way up there.
 
Addendum...

Howard is not the only one in this position.

Charlie Stramel and Tom Willander look like they're not ready to sign with their NHL teams while an underrated Jake Richard (45 points for UCONN) isn't ready to sign with Buffalo.

If the desire for these players is to be part of an organization with little interior competition for future jobs, then the NYI have got to be way up there.
I saw this about Willander and wondered if he doesn't want to play in vancouver. Just my own thoughts but what if the isles can grab him and sign quinn hutson. Have all the BU boys together haha.
 
The reason why I said Buffalo is because this team is more likely to turn into that with a rebuild over what happened with Tampa.

Once again you're ignoring facts to justify your fear of rebuilding. You're ignoriing that the Sabres have the worst owner in the NHL right now in Pegula. There's a reason why the best player they've drafted in the past 20 years, Eichel, wanted out of there.

Get decent ownership (which we have) and then hit on a bunch of top picks and watch things change. You named Buffalo as a rebuild failure (when they're actually an ownership failure), but for that one Buffalo example there's the Oilers, Blackhawks, Penguins, Lightning, Avalanche, etc that have all become Cup contenders. And now teams like Ottawa, Columbus, and Montreal have all taken steps this season and might be contenders soon.


So say you sell off everything, the return needs to be worth it. Based on what we saw from other fanbases, it’s really not. Without hitting McKenna and/or DuPont in the draft, you have to hope this team can actually develop talent and not just pick another pile of Wahlstrom/Bellows/MDC/Ho-Sang/Reinhart busts. We saw how well development of players has gone with the quality Bridgeport has been over the past who knows how many years.

It's so crazy - So you're saying that the Isles have failed because they've drafted all the "Wahlstrom/Bellows/MDC/Ho-Sang/Reinhart busts," but who's fault is that...?

The GM/scouting department.

So if you don't want to rebuild - Cool. No problem. But to keep on this current path with Lou and not want to change the GM and scouting department is more insane than attempting a rebuild. Because for as embarrasingly terrible as your Sabres have been the past 5-10 years, with each passing year we fall closer and closer to them in the standings.

You hint that you want change, but you have no realistic suggestions, and that's actually not your fault - Because there are no realistic suggestions that can take this current roster and make them a Cup contender. The Isles organization does not have the assets, farm system, cap space, and most importantly a sensible GM to turn things around.

So at minimum you should want the GM gone. Without that don't tell us that you want a Cup. Because the GM has shown us what he is and it looks like the past few seasons (and getting worse). That is what any future season will look like until he is removed.
 
I saw this about Willander and wondered if he doesn't want to play in vancouver. Just my own thoughts but what if the isles can grab him and sign quinn hutson. Have all the BU boys together haha.

Sadly, Hutson signed with Edmonton yesterday.

In fact, Edmonton has signed the two most highly touted European free agents this spring as well as one of the most prominent Pius Suter/Dominik Kahun style European free agents (Josh Samanski).

They also added college UFA Dman Damien Carfagna right after Ohio State was eliminated.

They're keeping busy.

***
The thoughts on Willander are already there.

One VAN poster already suggested a deal of Willander and Vancouver's 1st rounder for Barzal.

So, there's that.

***
Stramel is a big-bodied kid who was already on the US U18 squad when he was 16. He was being talked about as just behind Bedard and Michkov. However, he has never lived up to his potential back then. It's been slow cooking and disappointing development ever since.

His 27 points for Michigan State were a career high in his junior season this year.

Don't know why he wouldn't want to just sign with his home state Wild, who drafted him?

***
Winger Jake Richard went 15-28-43 with a +26 for UConn. I always tend to think the Isles kind of have a scout or bird dogs who closely watch the rather local UConn and Quinnipiac programs.

We drafted Toews back in the day and the odd player from these colleges have been added to BPort and Worcester over the years. And when the Isles added Dman Newport and RW Gatcomb last summer - two absolute nobodies - it should have come to no surprise that they were both - ta da - former UConn players.

They're gonna know full well who Richard is.

Also, I wouldn't be surprised in the least if 5th year forward Hudson Schandor (10-31-41) is added on a two-way AHL contract, likely with the intent of him coming in with Worcester next season.
 
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Just look at the commentary of all the trade threads. The offers for Dobson/Barzal/Horvat from those fanbases are just mediocre at best. It’s this years 1st, a mediocre defensive prospect and whatever filler they can toss in.
- Dobson: has been offered in trade threads for a few months now and other fanbases are figuring out that there's a reason why he's being offered so much
- Horvat: 30 years old, making 8.5 mil per year, might not hit 60 points this season
- Barzal: Trending towards the worst season in his career before getting his knee blown out by a blocked shot

A lot of this is typical hfboards stuff, wanting someone decent but only wanting to give up very disposable pieces, and you sort of have to just shrug it off. At the same time you look at the season we've had and I can sort of understand that there might not be a lot of enthusiasm about giving up decent pieces for these guys.
 
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There are no guarantees to anything in anything. All I am saying is that rebuilding is not some magic pill that will make everything better. Whenever you release or trade talent, you get worse. Even if you trade a Kyle Palmieri for a 2nd round pick, you are getting worse. You are trading a bona fide middle 9 player for a lottery ticket. a 2nd round pick has a 25% chance of playing more than 300 games. If you have enough lottery tickets, you may get more Palmieris. My point is that as the number of teams goes up (32 currently), the amount of NHL talent dwindles as well. Furthermore, with the cap going up, there will be less UFAs to sign and trades to be had for salary dump reasons. The sharks and Blackhawks are rebuilding. There appears to be no end in sight.

Rebuilding is a general term that can mean different things. Stripping the team to bare bones and starting from scratch can be painful for a very long time.

To answer your other question, No. I do not believe the way Lou is doing it is correct. His team building strategy is too far the other way. He is afraid to make changes. He signs average players to very long term and refuses to cut bait on players 1 year too early, which is key for sustained success. He takes the above point to an extreme. He is so afraid of the unknown, he overpays for the known and continues to double down on it.

You also point out the Stars as having a better core prior to them being good. Let's take a look.

2019-20 Stars - a very mediocre team and aging (29.4 average age)
Here was their core that year: Seguin, Benn, Heiskanen (20 yo). Their top 2 players were not PPG players either. People thought they were doomed because of how overpaid and slow they looked.
The also had Hintz (23 yo, 33 pts in 60 gp), an aging Radulov (34pts in 60 gp), Pavelski (31 pts in 67), and John Klingberg (32 pts in 58 gp).

The 2021 Stars team wasn't very good either with much of the same core, but you see Jason Robertson introduced.

The following year however, you saw Robertson, Hintz, and Oettinger take a huge step and the team has 98 pts. Ever since then, they've been cultivating their young talent and improving.

The young talent they've amassed are not top picks. Just good scouting and development. Their hit rate for impact players is abnormally high.

So I disagree that they started with a better core but they have done a much better job drafting and developing picks that you didn't have to tank for even while having untradable assets like Seguin and Benn.
the biggest thing that makes the Stars and Islanders different is a thing called TALENT

We do not have a Miro Heiskanen: our fanbase wants to crucify Dobson for every mistake he makes while praising the shit out of mediocrity from P&P.

We do not have a Roope Hintz or Jason Robertson or even a guy like Wyatt Johnston because our best player would be a 2nd line center on any really good roster (Barzal).

Dallas absolutely values their prospect development and goes through all avenues, from Canada to America to Finland to Sweden. The Islanders limit themselves to just America, Canada and Russia. Maybe they'll draft a swede or finn here and there but it absolutely negligent how the Islanders treat Bridgeport. Lou Lamoriello is watching a hockey team set historic lows and all he can say is "I care for development". It speaks volumes to how different Jim Nill is compared to Lou Lamoriello. A good general manager values every pick he makes and finds value from anywhere. Lou Lamoriello threw shit on a wall and said "thats good" in some drafts like 2018-2021.

Even when the Isles have chances to draft they throw it away. Romanov and Horvat's prices might as well be long term parts for the Red Wings and Blackhawks in Nazar and ASP. You pay a price when you keep trading away picks for middle impact players. Lamoriello did that for Horvat. I love Horvat, he's the center this team needs but the problem is that the team around him has degraded. Romanov is a very solid player but the defense around him has degraded. You cannot keep working this team into the dust when the reality is this team is heading closer and closer to the trenches of the Metropolitan.

If the Islanders seriously wanna be good, SUCK NOW. This team would be so good for Gavin McKenna and he'd instantly become a John Tavares in a good way. I hate how this fanbase see's Tavares but there was a time when he really was a beacon of light, and the ownership treated him like garbage. We should've been mad at how Wang and Ledecky treated him rather than him wanting to go home, and I might as well be getting pitchforks my way for a take like that.
 
It's so crazy - So you're saying that the Isles have failed because they've drafted all the "Wahlstrom/Bellows/MDC/Ho-Sang/Reinhart busts," but who's fault is that...?

The GM/scouting department.

So if you don't want to rebuild - Cool. No problem. But to keep on this current path with Lou and not want to change the GM and scouting department is more insane than attempting a rebuild. Because for as embarrasingly terrible as your Sabres have been the past 5-10 years, with each passing year we fall closer and closer to them in the standings.

You hint that you want change, but you have no realistic suggestions, and that's actually not your fault - Because there are no realistic suggestions that can take this current roster and make them a Cup contender. The Isles organization does not have the assets, farm system, cap space, and most importantly a sensible GM to turn things around.

So at minimum you should want the GM gone. Without that don't tell us that you want a Cup. Because the GM has shown us what he is and it looks like the past few seasons (and getting worse). That is what any future season will look like until he is removed.
This is the right thinking but ownership MUST take action. Why is Ken Morrow the head scouting director? Why are we still employing guys from the Garth Snow era? Lou Lamoriello is just really meh when it comes to his drafting either way. 2018 was an absolutely layup of a draft that he botched because he still took what Snow wanted. Taking Bode Wilde and Ruslan Ishakov over Jack Drury, Martin Fehevary, Scott Perunovich (heh), Kirill Marchenko, and Sean Durzi is kinda big. Taking Skarek over Dostal has had some pretty big implications, or even Pivonka over guys like Hofer, Cotter and Pospisil. The Islanders lack so much right now and they lack an identity with drafting. Now they're dead set on college kids and they might as well say "well this team is going nowhere, im gonna leave for somewhere else". The Islanders cannot keep going down this avenue.

I mentioned it before but the Islanders drafting and development feels very bad. College kids refusing to come play for the Islanders like Nelson and such realize they're going to hockey's version of Major League. There is no fruits in Bridgeport: only pestilence and famine.
 
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If the Islanders seriously wanna be good, SUCK NOW. This team would be so good for Gavin McKenna and he'd instantly become a John Tavares in a good way. I hate how this fanbase see's Tavares but there was a time when he really was a beacon of light, and the ownership treated him like garbage. We should've been mad at how Wang and Ledecky treated him rather than him wanting to go home, and I might as well be getting pitchforks my way for a take like that.

If you're insinuating that the vile this fanbase feels towards Tavares is uncalled for because he "just wanted to go home", then you've absolutely missed the bus entirely.
 
Do we? They have dough and they built a building but the most important metrics, demanding a winning culture bottom to top and an active but limited involvement is a fail at this point.

I agree, but Malkin has only hired 1 president/GM and (sadly) Lou is the 2nd best GM we've had in the history of the franchise...And he was willing to pay to get Lou (and Trotz). So it's clear this isn't a total money grab for him - He's willing to spend to get what he thinks top talent is both on ice and in the front office.

But now it's clear that Lou must be removed, and the big test will be...Did Malkin learn anything over the past 6 years in terms of staffing the front office? The next President/GM will pretty much answer that for us.

Given how much Malkin has done for this franchise already I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, but each moment Lou stays employed by Malkin I am losing faith in him.
 
I agree, but Malkin has only hired 1 president/GM and (sadly) Lou is the 2nd best GM we've had in the history of the franchise...And he was willing to pay to get Lou (and Trotz). So it's clear this isn't a total money grab for him - He's willing to spend to get what he thinks top talent is both on ice and in the front office.

But now it's clear that Lou must be removed, and the big test will be...Did Malkin learn anything over the past 6 years in terms of staffing the front office? The next President/GM will pretty much answer that for us.

Given how much Malkin has done for this franchise already I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, but each moment Lou stays employed by Malkin I am losing faith in him.
The second best GM!? What you should really should say is that he's the sixth least worst (with one legendary outlier). I mean, look at the damn list, talk about a low f**king bar. And no brainer moves like Trotz earn zero points in my book.

As for Malkin, he has let the situation fester for far too long to get a pass and the consequences of that hands-off approach are going to continue to hamstring this organization for years to come whether Lou is there or not.
 
If the Islanders seriously wanna be good, SUCK NOW. This team would be so good for Gavin McKenna and he'd instantly become a John Tavares in a good way. I hate how this fanbase see's Tavares but there was a time when he really was a beacon of light, and the ownership treated him like garbage. We should've been mad at how Wang and Ledecky treated him rather than him wanting to go home, and I might as well be getting pitchforks my way for a take like that.

Bro-

I agree with a lot of your posts, but you gotta take a step back and not let your passion/emotions override reality. Yes - Tavares represented hope when we sucked enough to be drafting #1 overall. However it's clear to see how awkward he was and didn't really gel with his teammates. He alone created the situation that led him to go back to Toronto.

If Ledecky/Malkin deserve blame it's 100% for not trading Tavares the moment he didn't resign July 1st, 2017. After being with the Isles for nearly a decade, the fact that he refused to resign long-term the moment he was able to - Especially after Drew Doughty and Carey Price did with the Kings/Habs...As well as every other notable Islander did just that.

Tavares told us everything we needed to know when he didn't resign immediately. Thus he should've been traded immediately.

It still pains me because the assets we got back could've been the very things that put us over the top vs the Lightning one/both of those semi-finals and got a Cup.
 
Bro-

I agree with a lot of your posts, but you gotta take a step back and not let your passion/emotions override reality. Yes - Tavares represented hope when we sucked enough to be drafting #1 overall. However it's clear to see how awkward he was and didn't really gel with his teammates. He alone created the situation that led him to go back to Toronto.

If Ledecky/Malkin deserve blame it's 100% for not trading Tavares the moment he didn't resign July 1st, 2017. After being with the Isles for nearly a decade, the fact that he refused to resign long-term the moment he was able to - Especially after Drew Doughty and Carey Price did with the Kings/Habs...As well as every other notable Islander did just that.

Tavares told us everything we needed to know when he didn't resign immediately. Thus he should've been traded immediately.

It still pains me because the assets we got back could've been the very things that put us over the top vs the Lightning one/both of those semi-finals and got a Cup.
Look im very upset at this team but the problem is that they just didnt do a thing with JT. Without trading Tavares, this team put itself in a hole for the future. Even if fans could've been pissed, this team could've gotten way more in 2018-2020 than nothing. They need some foundation.
 
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The Isles will not rebuild simply because they CANNOT rebuild. Rebuilds happen when teams have plenty of expiring contracts and a clear end in sight. The Isles have neither. Too many players tied up for too long and not many players who can be moved without a similar contract coming back. If Lou isn't willing to move the likes of Pageau for picks then there is not enough cap space to be real players in free agency or in the trade market.He could've cleared a lot of cap at the deadline but chose not to. Obviously that only prolongs the status quo, but status quo is what they believe in.

Isles aren't getting Marner or anyone else of that caliber, and changing your 4th line by dumping Fasching, McLean and Martin isn't going to change much. A new GM and a clear direction is what is needed the most, but don't count on it.
The Isles can rebuild. It would've been a bit easier before handing out long term contracts and NTCs, but it can certainly still be done. Start by announcing you're rebuilding. Then trade assets with no trade protection (Dobson, Romanov, Holmstrom, Tsyplakov - may as well, since they'll be getting long in the tooth by the time a rebuilt team can contend). Offer guys with limited NTCs around (Lee and JGP). At that point, guys like Sorokin, Horvat and Barzal will see the team will stink and will probably waive the NTCs. Voila. Then just keep guys like Pelech, Pulock, Mayfield, Duclair, Engvall, Palmieri, Cizikas, etc., to help you get to the cap floor and guarantee a level of suckitude to get you a top 3 pick. I'm in the step back and retool camp (with a new GM), but a rebuild is certainly still possible.
 
There are no guarantees to anything in anything. All I am saying is that rebuilding is not some magic pill that will make everything better. Whenever you release or trade talent, you get worse. Even if you trade a Kyle Palmieri for a 2nd round pick, you are getting worse. You are trading a bona fide middle 9 player for a lottery ticket. a 2nd round pick has a 25% chance of playing more than 300 games. If you have enough lottery tickets, you may get more Palmieris. My point is that as the number of teams goes up (32 currently), the amount of NHL talent dwindles as well. Furthermore, with the cap going up, there will be less UFAs to sign and trades to be had for salary dump reasons. The sharks and Blackhawks are rebuilding. There appears to be no end in sight.

Rebuilding is a general term that can mean different things. Stripping the team to bare bones and starting from scratch can be painful for a very long time.

To answer your other question, No. I do not believe the way Lou is doing it is correct. His team building strategy is too far the other way. He is afraid to make changes. He signs average players to very long term and refuses to cut bait on players 1 year too early, which is key for sustained success. He takes the above point to an extreme. He is so afraid of the unknown, he overpays for the known and continues to double down on it.

You also point out the Stars as having a better core prior to them being good. Let's take a look.

2019-20 Stars - a very mediocre team and aging (29.4 average age)
Here was their core that year: Seguin, Benn, Heiskanen (20 yo). Their top 2 players were not PPG players either. People thought they were doomed because of how overpaid and slow they looked.
The also had Hintz (23 yo, 33 pts in 60 gp), an aging Radulov (34pts in 60 gp), Pavelski (31 pts in 67), and John Klingberg (32 pts in 58 gp).

The 2021 Stars team wasn't very good either with much of the same core, but you see Jason Robertson introduced.

The following year however, you saw Robertson, Hintz, and Oettinger take a huge step and the team has 98 pts. Ever since then, they've been cultivating their young talent and improving.

The young talent they've amassed are not top picks. Just good scouting and development. Their hit rate for impact players is abnormally high.

So I disagree that they started with a better core but they have done a much better job drafting and developing picks that you didn't have to tank for even while having untradable assets like Seguin and Benn.
So, if you don't have the right GM and scouts and development system, even a total rebuild with high picks won't get you the Cup (see EDM), and if you do have the right GM and scouts and development system (DAL) you can retool and legitimately contend. Sounds like the key isn't rebuild vs. retool, but getting the right GM, scouts and development system. ;)
 
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In fact, Edmonton has signed the two most highly touted European free agents this spring as well as one of the most prominent Pius Suter/Dominik Kahun style European free agents (Josh Samanski).

They also added college UFA Dman Damien Carfagna right after Ohio State was eliminated.

They're keeping busy.
They also blew it by letting Holloway and Broberg leave and by trading McLeod. They've busy, but not getting anyplace.
 
Sears told no lies in his article. It is not a hit piece. He gave a fair representation of how Lou got us here what went wrong along the way. And you can’t give it the usual “he’s in it for the clicks” because he posted screenshots of the article.
 
Feels like he's gonna be a headache.

That said, when I viewed him at the U18 Worlds in his draft year, he sure as heck reminded me of Zach Parise at that age.

Yep, we'll be moving our 1st for him...
It's kind of like always falling behind. 2022 #13 ended up drafting Nazar, who had two points and looked like a pretty classy player last night vs. the Habs (2 points + the shootout winner). Nazar was the better of the two as they were both on the US DT. (He certainly strikes me as playing a more put-together game than Howard.) It would be kind of funny for NYI to trade a first for a 2022 pick.

But... I mean, sure. I'd probably consider it. I liked Howard at the time - I liked him at the draft. Good motor, good hockey sense, excellent hands, etc. Doesn't have quite the vision or flair of Nazar, but still. Probably a better bet than a lot of the players potentially available at 12. And players from that US team have done *very* well.
 
Sears told no lies in his article. It is not a hit piece. He gave a fair representation of how Lou got us here what went wrong along the way. And you can’t give it the usual “he’s in it for the clicks” because he posted screenshots of the article.
A well written article imo. I can only hope someone in ownership reads pieces like this. The Isles future isn’t totally bleak but the right decisions need to be made. I can’t see Lou making those decisions.
 

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