Roster/Rumors/Speculation/Trade Talk - 2024-25: Re-Tool, Re-Group, Re-Mix, Re-Build

[Crashsunday]

Nelson somehow lowering his trade value to the league...While simultaneously increasing his contract value to Lou.





#4Nations

Was going to say the same thing. 4Nations did Nelson’s value no favors.

 

[Chapin Landvogt]

There's reason to believe there's more to come because he's essentially a blank canvas that people can project anything they hope to see onto.

That canvas was blank back in September.

He's started painting on it already.

Whatever an upcoming deal may look like, it'll be a projection based on intial returns and the level of belief in what comes next from him based thereupon.

We fans may end up thinking he's getting overpaid.

It sure as heck wouldn't be the first time we'd get that feeling from a contract dished out by this management.

Bringing back Palmieri isn’t a bad move on its own, but in the broader context—especially alongside re-signing Nelson—it means running it back with the same team, and they cannot do that again. This roster needs a shake-up.

If Lou were to see this, he'd likely respond, "Says who?"

It's a very possibility with current management.

 

[Mr Misunderstood]

Lmao when I suggested 18 months ago to trade the $9M uninvited to Canada ‘talent’ for Brady Tkachuk and people wanted keep him.

18 months would be October 2023-ish? I think at that time everyone was excited about the idea of Barzal getting a training camp with the previous in-season acquisition of Horvat.
Barzal had also just come off a pretty good season and playoffs, despite an injury.

So I don't think it's completely crazy that people wanted to keep Barzal at that time. Feelings can sour over time, so it's not really fair to compare today's Barzal & Brady feelings to back then.

But to your point of Barzal not being invited to Team Canada, I didn't follow along closely enough to the pre-tourney process...was he not considered at all or was it because of the recent injuries?

 

[Throttle]

18 months would be October 2023-ish? I think at that time everyone was excited about the idea of Barzal getting a training camp with the previous in-season acquisition of Horvat.
Barzal had also just come off a pretty good season and playoffs, despite an injury.

So I don't think it's completely crazy that people wanted to keep Barzal at that time. Feelings can sour over time, so it's not really fair to compare today's Barzal & Brady feelings to back then.

But to your point of Barzal not being invited to Team Canada, I didn't follow along closely enough to the pre-tourney process...was he not considered at all or was it because of the recent injuries?

He wasn’t even considered- nothing due to his injury status.

The point was and still is the Isles ain’t winning anything with Barzal as a center piece player and there could have been an opportunity to swap him for an impactful player that needed maturity yes, but comes from a family that when given the stage, rises to the occasion, something the Isles needed/need to adjust the core of the game.

With Barzal’s contract, OTT gets 6 more years of contract certainty, whereas with Tkachuk, he’s creeping closer to UFA and he becomes someone else’s problem to sign.

Now, Tkachuk holds a ton of leverage and has show his gameplay to everyone.

You already had NYR leak a story to the media to try and shake him loose.

 

[impaaaaaact]

Was going to say the same thing. 4Nations did Nelson’s value no favors.

Fortunately 4 best on best games shouldn’t cancel out the last 1000 NHL games to any sane GM deciding whether to add him to their NHL team.

Definitely wont play for another national team, and this was probably Guerin doing a kindness for Brock’s family - could even be some 4D chess trying to get him back to MN this offseason.

 

[The Real JT]

Fortunately 4 best on best games shouldn’t cancel out the last 1000 NHL games to any sane GM deciding whether to add him to their NHL team.

Definitely wont play for another national team, and this was probably Guerin doing a kindness for Brock’s family - could even be some 4D chess trying to get him back to MN this offseason.

While I don’t think the tournament moved the needle much, Brock didn’t distinguish himself when compared to the stars of the league.

If Lou decides to deal him he should still return a first round pick or an established younger player + another asset.

To be fair, if Brock had a standout performance in the tournament, his return would be better. I’d say overall it knocked him back a little but not much. Lou probably doesn’t give a sh!t either way.

 

[MJF]

The Islanders today sent out an email teasing upcoming season ticket renewals. If they extend Nelson and Palmieri ownership will keep chasing away the few season ticket subscribers they have left.

STH renewal notices are out now. They raised my prices in section 112. Don't extend Nelson and Palmieri. If they raised prices around the arena the same way as my tickets increased, and they run back much of the same roster without freshening it up, the team will be playing in front of a less than half full building.

 

[Mr Misunderstood]

STH renewal notices are out now. They raised my prices in section 112. Don't extend Nelson and Palmieri. If they raised prices around the arena the same way as my tickets increased, and they run back much of the same roster without freshening it up, the team will be playing in front of a less than half full building.

Even with a less experienced roster, new (preferably younger and faster) faces would make me more inclined to purchase season tickets.

 

[Chockey22]

He wasn’t even considered- nothing due to his injury status.

The point was and still is the Isles ain’t winning anything with Barzal as a center piece player and there could have been an opportunity to swap him for an impactful player that needed maturity yes, but comes from a family that when given the stage, rises to the occasion, something the Isles needed/need to adjust the core of the game.

With Barzal’s contract, OTT gets 6 more years of contract certainty, whereas with Tkachuk, he’s creeping closer to UFA and he becomes someone else’s problem to sign.

Now, Tkachuk holds a ton of leverage and has show his gameplay to everyone.

You already had NYR leak a story to the media to try and shake him loose.

The idea that the Isles could have had an opportunity to acquire Tkachuk for Barzal is just made up - I've never seen anything other than on message boards that was an option. And for many of us, the issue was never opposition to Tkachuk, it was about what you'd have to give up. Ideally, I'd want to add Tkachuk to a roster than includes Barzal; rather than giving up Barzal ++ to get Tkachuk.

As for Barzal, I really do hope he was watching this tournament and is motivated to make the Olympic squad. Older guys like Stone and Marchand really didn't look that great for Canada, so there are spots available. Barzal has the talent, drive and work ethic to play in a tournament of this caliber.

 

[Richie Daggers Crime]

That canvas was blank back in September.

He's started painting on it already.

The paint is still wet.

 

[Glory Days]

The idea that the Isles could have had an opportunity to acquire Tkachuk for Barzal is just made up - I've never seen anything other than on message boards that was an option. And for many of us, the issue was never opposition to Tkachuk, it was about what you'd have to give up. Ideally, I'd want to add Tkachuk to a roster than includes Barzal; rather than giving up Barzal ++ to get Tkachuk.

As for Barzal, I really do hope he was watching this tournament and is motivated to make the Olympic squad. Older guys like Stone and Marchand really didn't look that great for Canada, so there are spots available. Barzal has the talent, drive and work ethic to play in a tournament of this caliber.

Barzal needs to watch Marner. Marner loves to hold the puck and circle but he most always winds up facing the net and rarely puts himself in a position where he has no shot or pass opportunity. Barzal still hasn’t learned that.

 

[MJF]

Even with a less experienced roster, new (preferably younger and faster) faces would make me more inclined to purchase season tickets.

This team is caught in a Gorundhog Day loop. The core of the roster is stale, and that’s beyond the 6 guys who have been here as far back as 2012. Perception is everything when you’re trying to attract customers and the team is perceived as lacking talent and boring to watch. If Lou follows through and extends Nelson and Palmieri I can assure you this will not be advertising material to attract new business.

 

[The Real JT]

…. If Lou follows through and extends Nelson and Palmieri I can assure you this will not be advertising material to attract new business.

As you and others have commented, in addition to making this unattractive to potential new players, the fan base will lose interest.

Count me in on that because of Lou signs both of our pending UFAs then I’m gonna take a long break.

 

[doublechili]

As you and others have commented, in addition to making this unattractive to potential new players, the fan base will lose interest.

I'm not necessarily arguing - just an actual question: hockey message board fans are one thing, but aren't regular ticket-buyers more interested in a team that makes the playoffs than they are in buying into a losing team with potential? And re: other players, for a team that's not an Original 6 franchise or located in the Sunbelt, COL, Utah, etc., isn't losing kind of the final kiss of death? I mean, whatever the situation is now, I prefer Horvat to Jon Sim.

I think the solution is to find a way to get younger and better while still remaining competitive - even improving in the short term while improving the long term outlook. My main issue with re-signing Nelson and Palmieri would be the extent that furthers the idea that Lou is not capable of improving short and long term simultaneously. but rather just stubbornly continues with the status quo, either out of belief in "the group" or the inability to do anything differently.

 

[Throttle]

The idea that the Isles could have had an opportunity to acquire Tkachuk for Barzal is just made up - I've never seen anything other than on message boards that was an option. And for many of us, the issue was never opposition to Tkachuk, it was about what you'd have to give up. Ideally, I'd want to add Tkachuk to a roster than includes Barzal; rather than giving up Barzal ++ to get Tkachuk.

As for Barzal, I really do hope he was watching this tournament and is motivated to make the Olympic squad. Older guys like Stone and Marchand really didn't look that great for Canada, so there are spots available. Barzal has the talent, drive and work ethic to play in a tournament of this caliber.

He’ll be 28 and on his 9th season getting paid $9M, kinda obvious the lightbulb ain’t going on to play a different, better way.

He ain’t making Team Canada, he may need to buy an Eastern European citizenship if he wants to play on a national team in the Olympics.

He’s the only forward in this 4Nations that was under 30 and making $9M+ that wasn’t on his national team.

 

[Sparksrus3]

After the Four Nation I hope we can get a 3rd for Brock .We love our Sheriff Woody but - I’ll stop there …LGI

 

[PJGooch]

I'm not necessarily arguing - just an actual question: hockey message board fans are one thing, but aren't regular ticket-buyers more interested in a team that makes the playoffs than they are in buying into a losing team with potential?

Short answer....yes.

 

[periferal]

Even with a less experienced roster, new (preferably younger and faster) faces would make me more inclined to purchase season tickets.

You are so not alone. This team is like a rack of stale milk at the market. More people would be inclined to buy it if the store would totally refresh their inventory.

Alas Malkin and Lou are going to let the milk turn green and lose customers before they do the very obvious (and much easier) thing first.

 

[periferal]

I'm not necessarily arguing - just an actual question: hockey message board fans are one thing, but aren't regular ticket-buyers more interested in a team that makes the playoffs than they are in buying into a losing team with potential?

Come on DC. Asking the question this way shapes the debate in a certain way. I mean asking someone if they'd prefer any type of "losing" team vs a "playoff" team then of course there's no debate.

So how about changing the wording to actually reflect what's going on here by asking...Would fans rather an aging fringe playoff team that has proved it's ceiling is the first round at best...Or the chance of getting a much younger and more dynamic/talented team whose potential would be higher than the current team.

In such a case then I'd hope that season-ticket buyers, along with every single other Islander fan out there, would be interested in a team that was a realistic Cup contender - Not a team who is a fringe playoff team (in a league where half the teams make it) and you already know they won't win a round.

Lou's moves, and thus this current team's potential, are as predictable as the sun rising daily. Again I ask any Islander fan anywhere - Do you want to win a Cup or just continue being average and sinking to nowhere?

Because if you truly want to win a Cup then selling off older players and taking a chance on younger prospects is truly the only choice to make.

 

[LeapOnOver]

Did people really think Brock was going to be a standout in 4 nations? I don't get the let down. He played exactly like I expected. Nobody on his line was a standout. He's a second line center on an average team. Perhaps all this disappointment comes from your own mind and your expectations.

Lmao when I suggested 18 months ago to trade the $9M uninvited to Canada ‘talent’ for Brady Tkachuk and people wanted keep him.

And I wanted to trade Barzal for Duchene back when that was a REAL possibility. Was I right too, in Throttle's multiverse?

 

[doublechili]

Come on DC. Asking the question this way shapes the debate in a certain way. I mean asking someone if they'd prefer any type of "losing" team vs a "playoff" team then of course there's no debate.

So how about changing the wording to actually reflect what's going on here by asking...Would fans rather an aging fringe playoff team that has proved it's ceiling is the first round at best...Or the chance of getting a much younger and more dynamic/talented team whose potential would be higher than the current team.

I think I captured the essence of the situation with my wording, but I'll go along with your wording. A rebuilding team is going to be losing a lot of games. That's your point - the goal, right? Lose lots of games so you get high picks. I think that's a much harder sell than a team that's making the playoffs more often than not and losing in the first round. With the rebuilding team, wouldn't people say, "They look like they might be good in a few years - I'll come back then."

I'm not advocating sticking with the status quo. I just think in modern hockey (all pro sports, really) with a salary cap, UFA, etc. (the "etc." soon to include a quasi-free agency for some prospects who leave the CHL to go the NCAA route), the only way to go is to constantly tinker to maximize assets. The post I was replying to also mentioned being an attractive team to players. For the Isles, not Original 6 and not in the Sunbelt, tax haven, etc., the only way to do that is to be an incredibly well run, successful team. They need a super smart, proactive new GM. Get the right guy, a Howie Roseman of the NHL, and they don't need to tear it all down.

 

[The Real JT]

Did people really think Brock was going to be a standout in 4 nations? I don't get the let down. He played exactly like I expected. Nobody on his line was a standout. He's a second line center on an average team. Perhaps all this disappointment comes from your own mind and your expectations.

It was only 4 games so yeah it’s not that big of a deal but I still disagree with your take.

Brock was only one of 4 forwards on the team with 0 points and he was a team worst -3. As much as I like him on the Isles I have to be honest. He looked old, slow and a little overmatched.

 

[The Real JT]

I'm not necessarily arguing - ….
I think the solution is to find a way to get younger and better while still remaining competitive - even improving in the short term while improving the long term outlook. My main issue with re-signing Nelson and Palmieri would be the extent that furthers the idea that Lou is not capable of improving short and long term simultaneously. but rather just stubbornly continues with the status quo, either out of belief in "the group" or the inability to do anything differently.

Your goal of getting younger and better while still remaining competitive is a tall order. It’ll be challenging to say the least.

I’m guessing you’d hate trading our pending UFAs for picks and prospects rather than for a younger NHL ready player. That approach is ok with me but I’m game for a fresh approach either way.

It’s hard to imagine any of those scenarios taking place unless Lou is replaced. That’s why I’m rooting for a solid losing streak coming out of this break.

Sorry not sorry.

 

[periferal]

I'm not advocating sticking with the status quo. I just think in modern hockey (all pro sports, really) with a salary cap, UFA, etc. (the "etc." soon to include a quasi-free agency for some prospects who leave the CHL to go the NCAA route), the only way to go is to constantly tinker to maximize assets. The post I was replying to also mentioned being an attractive team to players. For the Isles, not Original 6 and not in the Sunbelt, tax haven, etc., the only way to do that is to be an incredibly well run, successful team. They need a super smart, proactive new GM. Get the right guy, a Howie Roseman of the NHL, and they don't need to tear it all down.

Again we agree - Go get the next "Howie Roseman of of the NHL."

That said, how can you be sure that the Isles "don't need to tear it all down?" I said if before and I'll say it again...

Almost every retool happens on the fly, but the big question is - Who are the "core" players on your roster? The Islanders "core" right now is Horvat, Barzal, Dobson, and Sorokin. Go compare that with teams that won the Cup the last 20 years and this Isles "Core" isn't close in terms of the talent level.

If the Islanders had a core like Barkov/Tkachuk/Ekblad/Bennett/Reinhart/Bobrovsky or from years ago...

• Kane/Teows/Hossa/Sharp, or
• Stamkos/Hedman/Kucherov/Point/Vasilevskiy, or
• Crosby/Malkin/Letang/Fluery, or
• MacKinnon/Rantonen/Makar/Landeskog, or
• Stone/Eichel/Marchessault/Pietrangelo, or...

...Well hopefully by now you get the point.

To me this Islanders core isn't nearly good enough to compete for a Cup so the core itself needs to be rebuilt. Trotz was truly a miracle worker as coach when he was here as he was able to overcome some serious deficiencies in the Isles roster that enabled them to be more than the sum of their parts.

Well Trotz is long gone, this team needs 1-2 truly elite players, but we have a GM who cannot stop trading elite assets for average talent....And then gumming up the cap by signing that average talent to long term deals. So as long as Lou is GM the elite players aren't coming and the core is not nearly good enough.

Therefore this team is truly the Titanic. When Trotz left that was the equivalent of hitting the iceberg, and the last 3 seasons have been the next few minutes after where things seemed ok, but it was only a matter of time before we sink. We need a new GM stat, and then we need that new GM to rebuild the core and make that a Cup contender.

If you feel like the core can be rebuilt with just a retool then god bless, because short of very favorable expansion draft rules, every core from all the best teams over the past 20 years was built with (very) high draft picks (as evidenced above).

So if anything the evidence is actually suggesting that a rebuild is a lot more likely to be needed than a retool. But for the love of Pete - A new GM is needed ASAP. Because continuing on the "Lou path" is the most clearly obvious way to go nowhere.

 

[doublechili]

Your goal of getting younger and better while still remaining competitive is a tall order. It’ll be challenging to say the least.

I’m guessing you’d hate trading our pending UFAs for picks and prospects rather than for a younger NHL ready player. That approach is ok with me but I’m game for a fresh approach either way.

It’s hard to imagine any of those scenarios taking place unless Lou is replaced. That’s why I’m rooting for a solid losing streak coming out of this break.

Sorry not sorry.

Getting younger and better at the same time is definitely a tall order, and I'm not opposed to a bit of a step back for a year or so. But, the way I see it, the key is to get the right guy running things. If not, you'll just screw up the rebuild, or retool, or whatever you do (see BUF). And if you have the right guy, why go through the pain of stinking for 7 years when you have to constantly tinker anyway (it's not the 80s/90s anymore where you just put together a roster and it's set for a decade - and yeah, that's a Lou problem for sure).

Ideally we trade for young players set to become regular NHLers, but for the right deal I would not be opposed to trading pending UFAs for picks and prospects (I'd prefer prospects to picks if we're dealing Nelson, for example), but then that has to be followed up with a move in the offseason to replace the guys we lost, assuming the prospects are not NHL-ready. In a dream world you replace Nelson and Palmieri with a Marner signing. But more likely it's a matter of swapping prospects/players for other prospects/players and coming out ahead. Try to find a Dylan Strome kind of deal. Again, it's all about having the right guy (and scouts) doing things. I think we're conditioned to thinking pessimistically after all these decades of "bad-Torrey", Maloney, Milbury and Snow, and now Lou who is much better than the other guys but stuck with a 90s mentality apparently. I'll be optimistic and hope that the owners make a great hire.