Roster/Rumors/Speculation/Trade Talk - 2024-25: Re-Tool, Re-Group, Re-Mix, Re-Build

[Glorydays22]

way to f***ing go you f***ing flyers!!!

 

[impaaaaaact]

Nope. He’s a talented player, not a needle mover, not a $9M one, not a leader, certainly not a player to build around.

There’s only so many excuses that it’s everyone else and he doesn’t have the right talent to play with.

I love when you skip over my posts debunking your nonsense and then just repeat it to someone else lmao. Scroll up a lil bit my guy, you should have gotten a notification... but in case you missed it:

Also, maybe you've been too busy to notice but they put Barzal and Horvat back together at the beginning of January. Horvat has 8 goals in those 10 games... seem to remember him having a bit of a drought before that. Team is 8-2 over that stretch. That's what you want to break up?

 

[Throttle]

Players and teams go on hot streaks. The Horvat/Barzal combo will score, but remind us how effective it was in the playoffs again? Bc it wasn’t bc it eventually becomes easy to defend against bc the opponent knows 8/10x the figure skater is going to pass to…Horvat.

This isn’t the dual threat of Hull and Oates. Sorry.

 

[MJF]

This is incorrect, but loving the immediate thumbs up from Mr Dolan. Horvat was playing with JT Miller for the most part. He really only played with Petterson on the PP.
View attachment 969492

And our power play could certainly use a player like Elias Pettersson.

 

[Lek]

Players and teams go on hot streaks. The Horvat/Barzal combo will score, but remind us how effective it was in the playoffs again? Bc it wasn’t bc it eventually becomes easy to defend against bc the opponent knows 8/10x the figure skater is going to pass to…Horvat.

This isn’t the dual threat of Hull and Oates. Sorry.

you do realize i read that first as Hall and Oates

 

[Throttle]

So much the eye test tells you that you just can't see from stats:

1. Pettersson is a dual threat on the PP, which is something Barzal just isn't despite all of his efforts.
2. Barzal is far better in two areas - carrying the puck, and winning battles.

In short, Barzal is a far better 5v5 player. And he's better as a whole-ice player because while he might not be + defensively, he's great at transporting & holding the puck - getting it out, holding for changes while maintaining possession, etc.

Last, something happened to Pettersson last year. I really don't know what it is, and I haven't followed the news, but he has not looked the same- certainly through the playoffs last year & the 5-6 times I've watch Canuck games this year.

imo Barzal's the better long term bet, because I don't have nearly the concerns I'd have with Pettersson physically. It's pretty clear that Barzal is a limiting factor on the PP. Still, that's not enough to me to counter the physical concerns I have with Pettersson.

The simplest answer is some talented people don’t take well to ‘intense’ people riding them.

Once Horvat was traded, there was a leadership void. Vancouver paid Miller thinking he was the ‘man’, then much to Miller’s surprise Vancouver pays EP40 $3-4M more than him. Mr. Intense turns into Mr. Jealous and it all goes down hill.

That’s not a risk in acquiring EP40, that’s a management mess up by Vancouver -something you take advantage of. Whomever ends up with EP40 in the end, will win out.

you do realize i read that first as Hall and Oates

If you really need a maneater reference…

 

[Rehabguy]

Again, more cool stats…

One is a pure goal scorer that well scores goals. He also puts up points on the PP.

The other is talented figure skater that just passes the puck and hasn’t moved the needle on the pp, ot, and sho - areas where skating should be a large benefit. We know…everyone else on the roster is so inept they can’t convert his magic.

Like the Carolina game, the commentator goes, Barzal is talented but you know 8/10 x he’s passing the puck. Only for him to carry the puck into the zone into 4 opponents, make a blind pass behind him to nowhere, which leads to turnover, which leads to a breakaway that wasn’t converted due to a bouncing puck…

Again looking at Barzal through your lens would have any fan thinking he’s the worse forward in the world yet year after year he’s the most dominating offensive force on the Islanders.

 

[Rehabguy]

Pettersson was also playing on a line with Bo Horvat and had him on a legit 50 goal pace before the trade, something Horvat won't ever sniff on the Islanders with Barzal as a linemate. That reason alone is enough for me to want to take on Pettersson's contract. If we have to trade Barzal to get him here, so be it.

No way could anyone justify that ridiculous 92 million contract and for and for in my opinion and apparently a few others here as well an inferior player. Good but not better imo than Barzal who comes at a relative bargain. I doubt EP had Komarov as a linemate when they figured out that contract.

 

[MJF]

Again looking at Barzal through your lens would have any fan thinking he’s the worse forward in the world yet year after year he’s the most dominating offensive force on the Islanders.

1. This is a low bar to clear

2. The stats don't bear this out.

Fun video though

 

[Rehabguy]

The simplest answer is some talented people don’t take well to ‘intense’ people riding them.

Once Horvat was traded, there was a leadership void. Vancouver paid Miller thinking he was the ‘man’, then much to Miller’s surprise Vancouver pays EP40 $3-4M more than him. Mr. Intense turns into Mr. Jealous and it all goes down hill.

That’s not a risk in acquiring EP40, that’s a management mess up by Vancouver -something you take advantage of. Whomever ends up with EP40 in the end, will win out.


If you really need a maneater reference…

It is absurd that 2 individuals making a combined 148 million dollars over the next 8 years are so selfish that they sacrificed at the expense of their teammates a full season of hockey over a petty indifference.

They are both selfish childish shitheads and two players asking for that much money should not be the source of any personal problems on any team. The Isles do not need such low character individuals wearing the Islander uniform.

 

[impaaaaaact]

Have some time to kill today so I ran some numbers on what the cap would look like if we made a trade for Petterson based around Dobson, and also did not bring back Nelson or Palmieri:

__________________________________________________________________________________________
Anders Lee 7M - Bo Horvat 8.5M - Mat Barzal 9.15M
Max Tsyplakov 2.5M - Elias Petterson 11.6M - Simon Holmstrom 4M
Anthony Duclair 3.5M - JG Pageau 5M - Casey Cizikas 2.5M
Pierre Engvall 3M - Kyle Maclean .775M - Marc Gatcomb .775M

Offense = 58.3

Alex Romanov 6M - Tony DeAngelo 1.25M
Adam Pelech 5.75M - Ryan Pulock 6.15M
Scott Perunovich - 1.50M - Scott Mayfield 3.5M

Defense = 24.15

Ilya Sorokin - 8.25M
Semyon Varlamov - 2.75M

Goaltending = 11

Total = 93.45
_________________________________________________________________________________________

With the cap expected to go up to 93-ish next year, this is in that range - however, it would mean not traveling with an extra forward or defenseman, and not making any free agency acquisitions. The most logical ways to clear extra salary would be to:

- Trade Varly and play Hogberg. We should probably do this regardless. His NTC changes to a M-NTC this offfseason. It might not make Ilya too happy, but it is a business after all. This would save about 2M next season

- Trade Cizikas while he still has value. This only saves enough cap room to make sense if you call someone up internally who is making under 1M - that would save an additional 1.5M

- Buy out Pierre Engvall. Personally wouldn't be in favor of that one, but it would save 2M for the next 5 seasons... then cost 1M for 5 after that. Of course you'd need to call up a player in his place, so it really only creates 1M or so of space for the next 5 years.

So yeah, it's possible to add Petterson for sure, would just be a pretty tight fit next season.

 

[Rehabguy]

1. This is a low bar to clear

2. The stats don't bear this out.

Fun video though

Ah once again the “stats”

 

[Rehabguy]

So much the eye test tells you that you just can't see from stats:

1. Pettersson is a dual threat on the PP, which is something Barzal just isn't despite all of his efforts.
2. Barzal is far better in two areas - carrying the puck, and winning battles.

In short, Barzal is a far better 5v5 player. And he's better as a whole-ice player because while he might not be + defensively, he's great at transporting & holding the puck - getting it out, holding for changes while maintaining possession, etc.

Last, something happened to Pettersson last year. I really don't know what it is, and I haven't followed the news, but he has not looked the same- certainly through the playoffs last year & the 5-6 times I've watch Canuck games this year.

imo Barzal's the better long term bet, because I don't have nearly the concerns I'd have with Pettersson physically. It's pretty clear that Barzal is a limiting factor on the PP. Still, that's not enough to me to counter the physical concerns I have with Pettersson.

All good points

Nope. He’s a talented player, not a needle mover, not a $9M one, not a leader, certainly not a player to build around.

There’s only so many excuses that it’s everyone else and he doesn’t have the right talent to play with.

What needle is your $11.6M boy moving right now because I’m pretty sure it’s in the red. Why would anyone want to take on that headache with that price tag.

The Canucks should be able to dissolve both their contracts for breach of contract. There should be enough witnesses to show that these two were not acting professionally causing direct harm to their performance as well as the teams. This is costing that franchise a lot of money. I don’t know why that organization does not take this route.

 

[impaaaaaact]

Players and teams go on hot streaks. The Horvat/Barzal combo will score, but remind us how effective it was in the playoffs again? Bc it wasn’t bc it eventually becomes easy to defend against bc the opponent knows 8/10x the figure skater is going to pass to…Horvat.

This isn’t the dual threat of Hull and Oates. Sorry.

Yeah I mean the team leader in goals is the other guy on that line but let's just ignore that little tidbit I guess. Whatever gets you through the night Mr. Dolan.

Also lmao at you liking a post about Petterson having Horvat on a 50 goal pace and then reducing Barzal and Horvat's results to a hot streak. Fun Fact, Petterson and Horvat almost never played together... they were 1C and 2C on that team. JT Miller was the one playing with Horvat while Petterson was with Kuzmenko.

 

[Chockey22]

Kudos to those still trying to explain why Barzal is a very good player, and Petterson is also very good and the two (while very different types of players) have flaws and roughly the same impact on the game. It is obvious who has the actual information, watches both of these players, and understands the game of hockey, and those who think that referring to Barzal as a 'figure skater' is an actual argument.
This much is clear to me - the Isles would be better if they had both Barzal and Petterson than if they had one or the other. Whether it's worth giving up the assets needed to acquire Petterson is another question - I personally would be wary if it cost the Isles Dobson, Brock, a first round pick and prospect like D. Nelson; and still need to clear out additional cap to make it work.

 

[Throttle]

All good points


What needle is your $11.6M boy moving right now because I’m pretty sure it’s in the red. Why would anyone want to take on that headache with that price tag.

The Canucks should be able to dissolve both their contracts for breach of contract. There should be enough witnesses to show that these two were not acting professionally causing direct harm to their performance as well as the teams. This is costing that franchise a lot of money. I don’t know why that organization does not take this route.

Probably because they can’t make that argument and the PA would go nuts over that. It’s a self created problem.

 

[impaaaaaact]

Kudos to those still trying to explain why Barzal is a very good player, and Petterson is also very good and the two (while very different types of players) have flaws and roughly the same impact on the game. It is obvious who has the actual information, watches both of these players, and understands the game of hockey, and those who think that referring to Barzal as a 'figure skater' is an actual argument.
This much is clear to me - the Isles would be better if they had both Barzal and Petterson than if they had one or the other. Whether it's worth giving up the assets needed to acquire Petterson is another question - I personally would be wary if it cost the Isles Dobson, Brock, a first round pick and prospect like D. Nelson; and still need to clear out additional cap to make it work.

I think the hope would be to trade Dobson and something for Petey and recoup assets by trading Nelson and Palmieri at the deadline. EP40 essentially takes Nelson's role and one of Holmstrom or Tsyplakov draws back into the top 6.

Me personally? I'd rather do something around Pulock and JT Miller. Helps you throw the age stuff out the window... you don't get younger but you don't get older. Dobson is annoying but I think he'll stay much more effective than Pulock over the next few seasons.

 

[Richie Daggers Crime]

Actually I made it on a reasonable assumption given the evidence.

You made it on an assumption based on your bias.

 

[MJF]

Ah once again the “stats”

Yeah, the stats. It’s what players get paid for.

 

[saintunspecified]

This much is clear to me - the Isles would be better if they had both Barzal and Petterson than if they had one or the other. Whether it's worth giving up the assets needed to acquire Petterson is another question - I personally would be wary if it cost the Isles Dobson, Brock, a first round pick and prospect like D. Nelson; and still need to clear out additional cap to make it work.

There's no win-now style hockey trade with NYI right now that doesn't do one or other version of the 'rob peter to pay paul' thing. I don't think anyone disagrees with this in a serious way.

 

[leeroggy]

The Canucks should be able to dissolve both their contracts for breach of contract.

Love ya, but that would never hold up in either a court or the CBA rules. Many famous pairs in sports history had this issue.

 

[Glory Days]

you do realize i read that first as Hall and Oates

say it isn’t so……

 

[leeroggy]

you do realize i read that first as Hall and Oates

Taylor and Adam were both solid players!

 

[impaaaaaact]

Yeah, the stats. It’s what players get paid for.

The edge in a salary cap league is to find the players whose stats outpace their AAV. It's also to find players whose contributions show up in ways that might not show up on their own stat sheet, but will on the team's.

I posted those charts before to show that Petterson and Barzal both have very similar impacts on a game. The "figure skating" so many like to knock him for serves to keep the puck away from the other team, meaning they're not scoring. So even when his line is scoring less, they're holding their opposition to less goals... and are outscoring their opponents at the same rate.

Doesn't mean we shouldn't want EP40 because we should. It just means that as the engines of their respective lines at 5v5, Barzal has a slightly stronger impact and gets paid 2.5M less. Petey will have more of an impact on the PP. He would be huge here, but removing Barzal to add him could end up not adding any value at all, before even considering the differences in their contracts.

 

[Mr Misunderstood]

Ah once again the “stats”

Inarguable numbers