Line Combos: Roster Discussions

[10Ducky10]

My lineup for Detroit...
MP Scheif Roslo
Ehlers Stastny Laine
Connor Little Wheeler
Hendricks Copp Armia

Morrissey Buff
Kuli Poolman
Morrow Myers

Helle

 

[StatisticsAddict99]

My lineup for Detroit...
MP Scheif Roslo
Ehlers Stastny Laine
Connor Little Wheeler
Hendricks Copp Armia

Morrissey Buff
Kuli Poolman
Morrow Myers

Helle

I really hope Maurice considers dropping Wheeler to the 3rd line for more depth and a change of chemistry. The Wings might be in for a hard time if that Ehlers-Stastny-Laine show more than 15 minutes...

 

[grieves]

At this point I hate to touch the Stastny line but we need to get that Little line going somehow. Roslo to Stastny line, Laine on the left side, and back to PLE.

TOI distribution is so weak right now too. Just embarrassing. No reaction to on-ice events at all. Merit and effort is not being rewarded.

CSW is such a high-risk high-reward line that it makes no sense to play them so much in the lead. Just pathetic coaching.

 

[Maukkis]

Has anyone ever considered that our roster might be too stacked to split the TOI evenly? Someone is going to get less opportunities than they could take on.

This is with Lowry out, by the way. Expect change for the worse (in this regard, anyway) when he comes back.

 

[Halberdier]

Laine and Ehlers both already saw their ice-time go up last game. Both had 15 minutes, only 1 minute and less than one minute less than Perreault and Little, and more than Roslovic.

While I agree that 15 minutes is more than 13 and half, it's still laughable when our first line gets 20+ minutes and plays horribly on d-zone costing us the victory.

Defensive structure was way off on those goals and skating down seemed to be more on the lazy side. Just wondering the crapload Laine would get doing the same.

Laine and Ehlers (and Stastny) should definitely play more like 17-18 minutes territory and also the 1st line should be 18-19 or games like that more like 15 minutes.

 

[grieves]

Has anyone ever considered that our roster might be too stacked to split the TOI evenly? Someone is going to get less opportunities than they could take on.

This is with Lowry out, by the way. Expect change for the worse (in this regard, anyway) when he comes back.

That's why you respond to on-ice events. You play the line that is hot.

Or if you are in the lead, you don't play your weakest defensive line to the ground, while the hottest line plays stupidly short shifts. It was embarrassing and no amount of excuses is going to change that.

 

[RageQuit77]

(this discussion is again sliding toward the roster discussion, btw)

I agree with grieves.

PoMo's worst inability is his inflexible tactical thinking. He doesn't respond well in ever changing situations on the ice, regardless he has one of the best decks of cards to draw good hand. What the f*** is wrong with him, I don't get it.

A child burns her finger in a candle once, maybe few times, but she learns that the Candle always burn if touched to a flame. PoMo leads his team like a NKVD lieutenant: via rigid hierarchy not based on merit, and he seems never changing that trend. No ad hoc tactical measures are possible for him, because the scheme must be in a written format on pre-game papers, and it is not somehow possible wipe *** with that paper if what it says doesn't work well in practice.

I personally like PoMo as a person and character.

 

[19GoalsInPlayoffs]

Has anyone ever considered that our roster might be too stacked to split the TOI evenly? Someone is going to get less opportunities than they could take on.

Yes, at least I have . (Btw this is a little bit off topic I think, as we do have the roster discussion thread also...).

I think there are also positives in the way Maurice handles the lines, as you don’t have to be afraid all the time that making a little mistake cuts your icetime. You don’t have to be generally afraid of making mistakes. Which usually is a good thing for the players. Although there are clear benching cases when there has been a ”really bad plays”. Which is a good thing also imo.

But. I really can’t see why with any ”traditional hockey reasoning” Laine (and Ehlers) are getting 13-15 minutes TOI atm the way they have been playing lately. They have ”earned” more. Many coach would swap the icetime between the 1st and 3rd and see what happens for awhile.

As the 1st has not somehow been so overly stellar lately. It has by no means been bad - actually offensively it has been quite good - but the overall performance is not ”worth” the 20-23 TOI (with this roster, as you DO have very good options to maximize the output).

But (again). I do believe Maurice has some reasons why he is not going the aforementioned ”traditional” way. And one good reason might just be that there have not been Stastny in that line before. We will see if the TOIs are handled differently at the next game. They might be. Or they might not.

 

[Maukkis]

That's why you respond to on-ice events. You play the line that is hot.

Or if you are in the lead, you don't play your weakest defensive line to the ground, while the hottest line plays stupidly short shifts. It was embarrassing and no amount of excuses is going to change that.

If the coach sees line X as the best fit for being matched up against the opposition's top line, they are bound to play much. On a slightly lesser scale, the same goes with line Y and the opposition's second line.

Maurice does not seem to trust Laine and Ehlers with this responsibility yet.

 

[grieves]

If the coach sees line X as the best fit for being matched up against the opposition's top line, they are bound to play much. On a slightly lesser scale, the same goes with line Y and the opposition's second line.

Maurice does not seem to trust Laine and Ehlers with this responsibility yet.

Well that strategy lost him the game so maybe he should revise what the **** he is doing in there.

Why play the weakest defensive line in a two-goal lead situation when you have another line that is red hot. Sooooo baaaaaaad.

 

[RageQuit77]

3 Levels of action
for a Coach in the context of Team's game-to-game management (generalization)

1. Highest Strategic level. Roster arrangements, building lines based on past experiences, weaknesses and strengths of players, and intangibles, and statistics. Pegging order has some meaning as a part of team leadership. Training. Saying right with Calls up from AHL and baggages sent back. This is level happening between games.

2. Intermediate Operational level. Utilization of roster and lines. Allocation of ice time in general following strategic level planning. Matchups tuning, general special unit operation, and operational level response to possible injuries etc. things that have impact to the strategic level plan. Generally keeping final say how the team rolls on during the game. Keeping track on the game's internal flow and rhythm; continuous process of verification and falsification does the strategic level game plan work well or not.

3. Lowest Tactical level. Rabid, short term response to happenings in the game. Fine tuning of TOI allocation based on lines performances', opponents' lineup decision, special situations, and to the game's perceived flow. Goalie changes, calling timeouts, and planning for special squad's play when appropriate. Promotion and demotion of lines depending their performance generally (in terms of TOI and Matchups), but in extreme cases and in urgent needs also: mixing up squads if it's necessary, more or less pre-determined at strategic and operational levels. On this level a coach can still tinker with aspects of higher levels, as the point of whole playing is to win the game ongoing. There are no points leave any measures unused, particularly so if the measure doesn't directly contradict with longer term game-to-game operational planning (for example, hot but slightly injured player is playing 20+ minutes B2B)...

---

Maurice lacks of flexibility in use of these levels of coaching. What is set to be on Operational level stays there, what is allowed for Tactical level is limited by that it can't ever impact to upper level operations, and when it sometimes does that it becomes in effect with delay, often too late. Feedback loops should be working continuously between all of these levels to both directions, and particularly during the game. IMO.

/Off-topic

 

[19GoalsInPlayoffs]

Why play the weakest defensive line in a two-goal lead situation when you have another line that is red hot. Sooooo baaaaaaad.

For yeasterdays game there is a reason for this. I think.

PoMo didn’t want to ruin the so far very good first game of the Stastny-line. If the loss would have been ”their fault”, it would have completely nullified the fine first game for that line.

It does show though that Maurice don’t have a full confidence for Laine and Ehlers at the final important minutes of the game. So he did put the vets on the ice. Including Stastny. Playing safe. And failed doing so. But imo understantable.

 

[grieves]

For yeasterdays game there is a reason for this. I think.

PoMo didn’t want to ruin the so far very good first game of the Stastny-line. If the loss would have been ”their fault”, it would have completely nullified the fine first game for that line.

It does show though that Maurice don’t have a full confidence for Laine and Ehlers at the final important minutes of the game. So he did put the vets on the ice. Including Stastny. Playing safe. And failed doing so. But imo understantable.

So instead of having them be one of the main reasons for winning the game, Maurice decides it is better that we lose the game, but in a manner where it's not the fault of the line that was winning the game in the first place.

That is quite the reach IMO.

Playing CSW in the lead is not "playing it safe". That doesn't make any sense. That is the highest risk thing to do in that situation. Completely the opposite of what you are saying.

 

[BB88]

Skated much better last night, what a fun 3rd line.

Has anyone ever considered that our roster might be too stacked to split the TOI evenly? Someone is going to get less opportunities than they could take on.

This is with Lowry out, by the way. Expect change for the worse (in this regard, anyway) when he comes back.

It should mean though that the 1st line should never see (regular season) +20min games.

 

[19GoalsInPlayoffs]

Playing CSW in the lead is not "playing it safe". That doesn't make any sense.

Yes it does. For Maurice. He has always trusted ”the vets”.

And probably that is the so called right thing to do when securing the lead at the late 3rd. Almost every coach does that. It didn’t work out though as the vets got sloppy IMO.

I do believe that Stastny does change the situation a bit. He clearly is a vet for Maurice also, and might change the way PoMo sees his line in the very near future. Hope so.

 

[grieves]

Yes it does. For Maurice. He has always trusted ”the vets”.

And probably that is the so called right thing to do when securing the lead at the late 3rd. Almost every coach does that. It didn’t work out though as the vets got sloppy IMO.

I do believe that Stastny does change the situation a bit. He clearly is a vet for Maurice also, and might change the way PoMo sees his line in the very near future. Hope so.

What? So he doesn't care about the strengths and weaknesses of lines, but just bases things off according to the age of the players?

If things are that bad, then we are in bigger trouble than I thought. In that case I would prefer if they gave the coaching job to the janitor.

 

[Vekke]

Personally I don't understand the strong vets & rookies mindset. Yes there might be some situations where experience is good, but overall the game is the same bunch of sweaty guys and one puck (Sweaty guys and a one puck sounds like adult movie btw.). Even rookies have done that like 15 years already. TOI should be determined how you have performed, not how old you are or how many NHL-games you have played. Without any actual proof my gut feeling is that Maurice is more towards vets than most of the coaches in NHL. Jagr would have been available before TD, he could have been playing 30 mins/game.

 

[19GoalsInPlayoffs]

What? So he doesn't care about the strengths and weaknesses of lines, but just bases things off according to the age of the players?

No .

He values the playing experience way over the daily performance level. He doesn’t generally play ”very bad vet” over ”very good rookie” though (rookie meaning ”not vet”, not first year player ). But in some situations even this happens. If the going gets tough. Or he thinks it might get tough.

There are of course exceptions. And some players do get the ”vet-status” faster than some (btw there are of course also plusses for the players with the ”rookie-status”, but that is a different discussion).

PoMo is not alone with this mentality in the NHL. It is the norm.

 

[grieves]

No .

He values the playing experience way over the daily performance level. He doesn’t generally play ”very bad vet” over ”very good rookie” though (rookie meaning ”not vet”, not first year player ). But in some situations even this happens. If the going gets tough. Or he thinks it might get tough.

There are of course exceptions. And some players do get the ”vet-status” faster than some (btw there are of course also plusses for the players with the ”rookie-status”, but that is a different discussion).

PoMo is not alone with this mentality in the NHL. It is the norm.

Blargh. Sounds like terrible coaching to me.

 

[Keduzin]

Sometimes I wonder if it’s really Paul Maurice behind the bench or his twin :

 

[NotCommitted]

I'm frustrated, it's stupid I enjoyed watching the Jets more without Scheifele because they played better hockey with a weaker roster. I just knew before each game that the Jets are going to be in it and whether they win or lose it'll be a hard fought team effort. Now it feels like it's a coin toss between a monster game and an exercise in frustration because the Jets seem to completely sink or swim depending on how the 1st line happens to play on any given night - and they are a bit hit or miss and have been for the whole season they've been together. The Jets don't need to be a one line team.

 

[NotCommitted]

Has anyone ever considered that our roster might be too stacked to split the TOI evenly? Someone is going to get less opportunities than they could take on.

This is with Lowry out, by the way. Expect change for the worse (in this regard, anyway) when he comes back.

I don't understand the point you are making. If the roster is so stacked, how come the first line plays 20+ minutes pretty much every night? The utilization is very top heavy, and when the 1st line has a weaker game, it certainly looks like they are taking on more than they can handle, while either 2nd or 3rd (or both) seem to take on less than they could. That yells unbalanced usage to me. With a stacked roster they could be playing 1st line for 18 minutes and 2nd and 3rd for about 16-17 or so...

Also it doesn't seem Laine & Ehlers for example can earn more minutes with good play. Last 6 games, Laine is +7 with 6+5=11p - and his TOI averages about 14.30 and seems steady in that range, except for 2 games, one where he played over 16 and one with less than 13. Similarly Ehlers is +6 with 4+4=8 and he averages even less TOI because of being in PP2. You could argue why give them more since they are feasting with their current usage, and maybe that's a fair point but on the other hand the 1st line is struggling about half the games. Like last night for example, it seems to me taking away some TOI from 1st and giving it to 3rd could've very well been the difference between losing and winning. We'll never know though, it's possible the outcome would've been the same and the boards would be yelling what defensive liabilities Laine & Ehlers are

Also even with a healthy Lowry it's possible to give enough minutes to all lines to keep them inside the game. It's just a matter of choice. Currently Maurice chooses differently, it's his right as the coach but I don't agree with that choice.

EDIT: I'm willing to give Maurice the benefit of the doubt now that Stastny is in the roster, Preds game was his first after all, but based on this season as a whole I'm not too optimistic we see a change in usage. I hope I'm wrong.

EDIT2: Remains to be seen what happens in the playoffs, but currently the plan seems to be to let Scheif & Wheels carry the team to success by themselves, personally I believe that would be a plan doomed to fail and they'd be better of going with #risetogether.

 

[Maukkis]

I don't understand the point you are making. If the roster is so stacked, how come the first line plays 20+ minutes pretty much every night? The utilization is very top heavy, and when the 1st line has a weaker game, it certainly looks like they are taking on more than they can handle, while either 2nd or 3rd (or both) seem to take on less than they could. That yells unbalanced usage to me. With a stacked roster they could be playing 1st line for 18 minutes and 2nd and 3rd for about 16-17 or so...

Also it doesn't seem Laine & Ehlers for example can earn more minutes with good play. Last 6 games, Laine is +7 with 6+5=11p - and his TOI averages about 14.30 and seems steady in that range, except for 2 games, one where he played over 16 and one with less than 13. Similarly Ehlers is +6 with 4+4=8 and he averages even less TOI because of being in PP2. You could argue why give them more since they are feasting with their current usage, and maybe that's a fair point but on the other hand the 1st line is struggling about half the games. Like last night for example, it seems to me taking away some TOI from 1st and giving it to 3rd could've very well been the difference between losing and winning. We'll never know though, it's possible the outcome would've been the same and the boards would be yelling what defensive liabilities Laine & Ehlers are

Also even with a healthy Lowry it's possible to give enough minutes to all lines to keep them inside the game. It's just a matter of choice. Currently Maurice chooses differently, it's his right as the coach but I don't agree with that choice.

EDIT: I'm willing to give Maurice the benefit of the doubt now that Stastny is in the roster, Preds game was his first after all, but based on this season as a whole I'm not too optimistic we see a change in usage. I hope I'm wrong.

The best play the most. 20 minutes a night for a top forward is nowhere near unrealistic.

 

[NotCommitted]

The best play the most. 20 minutes a night for a top forward is nowhere near unrealistic.

It's not unrealistic by any means, but I also don't think it's the best for the team. It's not like the gap between the best and 2nd or 3rd best is worth 5+ minutes of TOI in this team.

 

[Kratti]

I'd guess that once Lowry is back the ice time distribution will be something like:

Scheifele+Wheeler: ~20mins including special teams (Connor probably around 15-17mins, S+W:s 5on5 minutes + 2nd PP unit's possible minutes)
Lowry and his line: ~15mins including PK duties
the rest split up pretty evenly between Stastny's and Little's lines, depending on 5on5,PP,SH time distribution in a given game.

And that's fine, I think.