Roster Building XXII: Too Many Forwards, Hopefully One Cup

[hblueridgegal]

Interesting that there is virtually no informtation coming out re: the C2 squad and how they have looked. Of course line positioning probably doesn't matter in training camp but it is surprising to see Suzuki as a 3C in camp. Will he ever make the big squad here in Raleigh???

https://x.com/i/web/status/1838201845249901009

They showcased Blake and Nadeau in the Canes 5k PR. Perhaps that's a clue (j/k).

Here's todays PP crews..Suzuki on the 2nd for it.

 

[NotOpie]

Maybe Jake Guentzel didn't like us because we're clingy.

It wasn't about Jake not wanting to be here....it was about us not wanting him here.....after he said he likes Western NC BBQ better than Eastern BBQ....everybody knows that's a "....you ain't from around here r ya...". After that it was easy to take the pick.....

 

[WreckingCrew]

It wasn't about Jake not wanting to be here....it was about us not wanting him here.....after he said he likes Western NC BBQ better than Eastern BBQ....everybody knows that's a "....you ain't from around here r ya...". After that it was easy to take the pick.....

As long as he doesn't consider mustard based BBQ as "Carolina BBQ" I won't get bent out of shape over that

 

[NotOpie]

As long as he doesn't consider mustard based BBQ as "Carolina BBQ" I won't get bent out of shape over that

That's "run him out on a rail" bad.....or "tar and feather" bad. GTFO Jake!

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

You all are making it too complicated. We were Jake's rebound. His longtime girlfriend (Pittsburgh) jilted him so we were his rebound. We looked really enticing to him when he was getting over his longterm girlfriend as we showered him with affection, but then he realizes he only liked us because we were the rebound and sees that there were a lot of fish in the sea, so he moved on to his new longtime girlfriend.

Necas is gone and Jarvis is on a bridge deal if we had re-signed him so there are trade-offs, whether one views those tradeoffs as positive or negative.

 

[JustPenalties]

I don't know how anyone can look at our forward group as it stands today and say missing out on resigning Guentzel because we f***ed up negotiations is fine

 

[JustPenalties]

I agree. Sure, we made a gamble and thats what you need to do sometimes, but it didnt pay off and we overpaid.. thats never a good thing and losing him will sting, mark my words. I am not saying Koivunen will be a star, but just watch, we would like to have him singed while the window is open. Well shit happens and its not the end of the world, but all the assets you lose for nothing..

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

I agree. Sure, we made a gamble and thats what you need to do sometimes, but it didnt pay off and we overpaid.. thats never a good thing and losing him will sting, mark my words. I am not saying Koivunen will be a star, but just watch, we would like to have him singed while the window is open. Well shit happens and its not the end of the world, but all the assets you lose for nothing..

that's the case with rentals all the time. It's why the Canes don't go that route often. It's only worth it for 1 team, the one that wins the cup. The moves for Recchi and Weight were genius moves, but if we had lost to MTL in round 1, the same would be said. Luckily, we didn't.

 

[Blueline Bomber]

Ultimately, at this point, it’s irrelevant. It’s either going to be a blip on a successful decade or so of Canes hockey, or it’s going to be one of the hints to an issue that prevented the organization from taking the next step. But either way, it’s done and over with, and we’ll be able to find a whole new slew of issues to debate over tomorrow.

 

[CanesUltimate11]

Ultimately, at this point, it’s irrelevant. It’s either going to be a blip on a successful decade or so of Canes hockey, or it’s going to be one of the hints to an issue that prevented the organization from taking the next step. But either way, it’s done and over with, and we’ll be able to find a whole new slew of issues to debate over tomorrow.

And it'll rear it's ugly head every time the Canes score 2 or fewer goals in a game.

 

[Big Daddy Cane]

Guentzel wasn’t that good of a fit here to warrant the constant discussion. This is not sour grapes; I made similar points in the aftermath of the trade.

(1) He’s a skill winger. While he’ll play around the net, there are physical limitations. Aho and Jarvis have a similar issue. That might be a little too much homogeneity in style. Necas, who would have been the opportunity cost of keeping Guentzel, brings elite speed to the table.

(2) He’s unproven as a line driver. He’s played with a great linemate for virtually his entire career. The way the roster was always going to be structured post-Jarvis ELC, it might require of the Big 4 forwards on an island, elevating lesser linemates at times. That’s what Necas is being asked to do, based on the early setup. Can Guentzel do it? I won’t rule it out, but you can’t say for certain.

(3). He was on the 1st PP unit that came up empty in crunchtime again. There’s only so much a bumper can do anyway. The puck moves around the half walls primarily.

 

[bleedgreen]

I mean, I disagree though I’m not at all wringing my hands about Jake leaving.

He was a perfect fit. He adjusted to Aho immediately. They had chemistry that led to production, and at the very least made our first line more dangerous to defend which requires serious attention…which leads to a trickle down effect as teams expend more energy there leaving a gap somewhere else.

You can move the numbers around any way you like to say it didn’t really make a difference, but it seemed very obvious it did. As far as what happened the agent just told us what happened. We waited too long, we got there at the draft but it didn’t matter by then. Freedom was a couple of days away and it no longer made any sense not to see what was out there. If you’re telling yourself the agent is lying and that Jake never had any intent of staying I think you’re creating a narrative to make yourself feel better about it. The agent isn’t lying, he has no reason to. Seemed like that was what was going on the whole time even from our side of it.

It’s over. The argument now is whether or not you really believe that contract was a good idea for us or not. It’s easy to go either way. I think Jake will get hurt a bunch, and will falter for sure by the end but he’ll also be around enough to be part of some huge moments where they win with him.

To me the question is our salary structure. Even with the cap going up we may not be able to afford five let alone six top six forwards. To afford Jake one of Necas or Jarvis likely had to go. That’s a consideration moving forward for us now as we’ll have more room next summer but will have gaps in the lineup on top of this issue. We need young guys to step up, but they may not be there yet. I don’t think any of them really are as of today.

 

[Blueline Bomber]

25 points in 17 regular season games and 9 points in 11 playoff games and we’re out here claiming he “wasn’t a good fit.” Just…wow.

The issue, ultimately, isn’t Jake himself. It’s that we acquired Jake because we had an obvious hole in our Top 6, and now that he’s gone and we did f*** all to replace him, that hole has appeared again. It’s actually worse, because we lost TT as well, so we now have two glaring holes in our Top 6.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

Points aren’t the only measure of fit. Jake didn’t alter our future in the slightest, like it or not.

Trading for a Connor Murphy type shutdown righty defender would have made us better than Guentzel did with Pesce going down.

 

[Big Daddy Cane]

No BB. I said he wasn’t that good of a fit to make a big deal about. He was good fit in the general sense because he’s a good player.

If we were to describe the ideal fit next to Aho, Jarvis and Svechnikov, Guentzel isn’t that guy to me. Missing out on Matthew Tkachuk is the one that really hurts. EDIT: Eichel as well.

 

[bleedgreen]

I think Jake was a better fit with Aho than Svech or Jarvis. I’ve never been overly impressed with Svech and Aho to be honest, though to me that’s Svech and his inconsistencies. Jarvis and Aho are very good together but Jake was better by a notable margin imo. To me it’s his shooting, he can put pucks on net from any angle or awkward position and Jarvis isn’t the same level of having a “nose for the net” though he’s very good. All three of them together of course was the best option.

Jake was the perfect linemate for Crosby because of this skill, Crosby could put pucks anywhere near Jake and he’d find a way to get it on net. Jake’s reads on lanes and dead space are at the 9 mill a year level. He is “that good” at the role.

Jarvis and Svech are great candidates for stepping up and becoming those guys but I don’t think they’re in the same category at this point. This year is another big opportunity for them both to take a step though.

 

[Svechhammer]

Guentzel and Aho made a legitimately elite first line, arguably the most potent we've had since that one season of Staal and Semin. And as bg said, when you have a first line that good, it requires the opponent to scheme against it, which inevitably opens things up for the other lines.

He was perfect for what we wanted to do. He was a perfect fit for a team that has built itself on depth where it would have allowed us to flex our depth over the course of 8 years, beating you with 3 or 4 lines of attack. Without him, teams don't have to load up defensively against any particular line of ours, which does make things difficult for us in crunch time and the playoffs.

 

[Blueline Bomber]

Points aren’t the only measure of fit. Jake didn’t alter our future in the slightest, like it or not.

Trading for a Connor Murphy type shutdown righty defender would have made us better than Guentzel did with Pesce going down.

When Pesce went down...in the playoffs...well after the trade deadline?

If we had acquired a shutdown defenseman at that deadline instead of an offensive threat (which, again, the team desperately needed), this board would have lost their shit

 

[hblueridgegal]

JMO, even at our peak of recent success, I don't think we really make it to the final rose ceremony very often with these heavy hitter guys. There's always a reason for the No whether it be negotiations, location, style of play, Wag preference, etc. I can't imagine that it will become easier if the team takes a dip this year. Perception outside our local lovefest is mid when listening to others outside our area. Respected now as a team and an org. certainly but, not necessarily, alluring. Look at the end of season player polls and results, too. Time for some good influencers instead of guys discussing failed negotiations.

Guentzel appeared to love Aho though. I do wonder if Aho has a limit on frustration and disappointment especially after getting to play with elite talent however briefly - especially with TT gone. As a factor for success, someone on Twitter posted the stats on how much the top team's best lines play together all season vs how little that happens with the Canes in comparison. It was eye opening.

 

[bleedgreen]

JMO, even at our peak of recent success, I don't think we really make it to the final rose ceremony very often with these heavy hitter guys. There's always a reason for the No whether it be negotiations, location, style of play, Wag preference, etc. I can't imagine that it will become easier if the team takes a dip this year. Perception outside our local lovefest is mid when listening to others outside our area. Respected now as a team and an org. certainly but, not necessarily, alluring. Look at the end of season player polls and results, too. Time for some good influencers instead of guys discussing failed negotiations.

Guentzel appeared to love Aho though. I do wonder if Aho has a limit on frustration and disappointment especially after getting to play with elite talent however briefly - especially with TT gone. As a factor for success, someone on Twitter posted the stats on how much the top team's best lines play together all season vs how little that happens with the Canes in comparison. It was eye opening.

I’d like to see that comparison, do you have a link?

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

The real games can't start soon enough.

 

[hblueridgegal]

I’d like to see that comparison, do you have a link?

The thread starts here with the opener then goes into the Panthers, Oilers, Rangers, etc. vs the Canes data. Mostly, debating the importance of consistency and chemistry and how it may affect outcomes especially for Aho, Svech, Necas, etc.

 

[bleedgreen]

The thread starts here with the opener then goes into the Panthers, Oilers, Rangers, etc. vs the Canes data. Mostly, debating the importance of consistency and chemistry and how it may affect outcomes especially for Aho, Svech, Necas, etc.

Pretty interesting and not really surprising with Rod’s preferences. When we found Aho the right combo it immediately rode up the charts and would’ve easily eclipsed the Staal line, which to me reinforces how good it is to find the right linemates for Aho. Chemistry does matter to me. Amazing to see how hard the Rangers rode Tro’s line all season. Of course injuries and other factors are at play. Thanks for showing that.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

When Pesce went down...in the playoffs...well after the trade deadline?

If we had acquired a shutdown defenseman at that deadline instead of an offensive threat (which, again, the team desperately needed), this board would have lost their shit

Well this board has thought many things that are wrong and its opinion are irrelevant (mine included). We missed Pesce and Fast a heck of more than any impact Guentzel had in the playoffs. He made little impact on the PP and the PK + right side of the defense was torched in the playoffs

The thread starts here with the opener then goes into the Panthers, Oilers, Rangers, etc. vs the Canes data. Mostly, debating the importance of consistency and chemistry and how it may affect outcomes especially for Aho, Svech, Necas, etc.

Which is the problem we have. Until Aho can play against teams top line defensively, or trusted to (whichever it is), we are going to be limited offensively

 

[chaz4hockey]

Carrier is back so I conclude RBA’s new injury description of “little more sting to it.“ is longer than a day but is not weeks:

https://x.com/i/web/status/1838605142091760073