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Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XX (WTF are we going to do this Off-Season edition)

rangers1314 said:
This was always going to happen.

He stayed 2 years ago bc they gave it one last chance with that core and brought in EK. Crosby loves him. It was a total failure and they are miles away from contending again.

He should RUN to the Chicago job, but he won’t.
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I'd be curious to know why Sid loves Sully. I look at Sid as a hard competitor. I doubt he would want a bad coach to stay for years.
 
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McRanger92 said:
Sullivan has had the deck stacked in his favor the last 7 years? I would strongly disagree with that. The rosters outside of Crosby havent been good. Also they wouldve beaten us if Crosby played Game 6 in 2022.
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People may forget the Penguins that won 2 cups were playing below expectations before Sully was hired. In fact they were beat by us in the first round of the playoffs the season before Sully was hired.

He also coached Boston to a first place record.
 
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GoAwayPanarin said:
I think this was true back when they were winning. I'm relatively certain that most people were worried of the concept of him being fired when Dubas was hired 2 seasons ago (when we did have an opening) because of where that would have led (better than Lavi? Probably, but that isn't a tough bar to clear.) We have even more data than we did then and we should be even more worried because it's a real possibility now.

Since 2019, they've been owned by the Isles (twice, swept once!) and KO'd by the NYR (in a series they should have probably won sure, but it still happened.)

I don't think it's about being contrarian, it's about identifying who he is as a coach and applying his philosophy to the current roster. Simply put, it doesn't mesh and I don't like his style of hockey to begin with. You can't win with WEEEEEEE hockey unless you're either just so overwhelmingly good (see: Pitt in 2016) where you can bull doze anyone or you're good enough and you get some really favorable matchups along the way (see: Colorado in 2022.) Part of coaching is adjusting to what you have and he didn't do that in Pitt and he would have to do that here.

He doesn't have the same baggage as Lavi (we don't know how he'd integrate young players into the lineup because the Pens have had none! The last time he did have them he did a good job, but that was 9 years ago) but it would be the laziest, most uninspired hire of all time.

At the end of the day I'll just put it this way:

We've seen how bad the Metro has been the last 3 seasons.

The Pens have missed the playoffs all 3 years. that says a lot.
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Two things:

First, about the recent performance in Metro. During this time Pens had the worst goaltending in Metro and goaltending at this level is impossible to overcome especially with also otherwise deficient lineup. Speaking of the deficient lineup that had little to nothing to do with Sully: they had AHL level depth for their hole bottom 6 forward group and at least 3rd pair defense. No speed to speak off and it is a killer in itself, even without issues

The other point is that he took over Pens and was able to build a winner when they were largely in the same position as the Rangers now: veteran team that has been underwhelming and largely underperforming (I clearly remember talks about Pens needing to trade their core outside of Sidney - who himself was nothing but a crybaby - and have another rebuild). Yeah, Rangers are not the same Pens team but they have their strength in other areas and I bet Drury is looking for a rebound and likely has a positive attitude for the next 2/3 years). If you tell me it was very easy to manage that locker room of ego to minimize what he did - I don't buy it because as I said - his predecessors were nowhere close when he got hired.

Will I have reservations if Sallivan is hired? Yup - same as any new coach coming in. Am I going to preemptively get on a soapbox to scream that it's going to be a disaster? I don't work like that. There are signs that he might be successful so I will give him a benefit of a doubt
 
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zlev said:
you said exactly the same thing about Laviolette
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Lavi did not work out this year but last year he had the best record in the NHL. Players like Bread, Laffy, and Vince had career best years under Lavi. The team lost to the eventual champions in the conference finals. It was not all bad under Lavi. :)
 
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kovazub94 said:
Two things:

First, about the recent performance in Metro. During this time Pens had the worst goaltending in Metro and goaltending at this level is impossible to overcome especially with also otherwise deficient lineup. Speaking of the deficient lineup that had little to nothing to do with Sully: they had AHL level depth for their hole bottom 6 forward group and at least 3rd pair defense. No speed to speak off and it is a killer in itself, even without issues

The other point is that he took over Pens and was able to build a winner when they were largely in the same position as the Rangers now: veteran team that has been underwhelming and largely underperforming (I clearly remember talks about Pens needing to trade their core outside of Sidney - who himself was nothing but a crybaby - and have another rebuild). Yeah, Rangers are not the same Pens team but they have their strength in other areas and I bet Drury is looking for a rebound and likely has a positive attitude for the next 2/3 years). If you tell me it was very easy to manage that locker room of ego to minimize what he did - I don't buy it because as I said - his predecessors were nowhere close when he got hired.

Will I have reservations if Sallivan is hired? Yup - same as any new coach coming in. Am I going to preemptively get on a soapbox to scream that it's going to be a disaster? I don't work like that. There are signs that he might be successful so I will give him a benefit of a doubt
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Bigggg difference here -

Prime Crosby, Malkin and Kessel vs whats on the NYR roster right now. There was more to the Pens turn around in 2016 than just Sullivan (they added Bonino, Hagelin, etc) and became a wagon. Now he pushed hard for Hagelin so if you want to give him credit for that iteration of the Pens then fine. He was certainly a part of it.

Look at the last few though. it's not just age or bad goal tending (they basically broke even in goal the 2 seasons prior to this one mind you) they've pretty much regressed across the board. Where have the adjustments been? How do you add Erik Karlsson and get worse at offense?

We don't have anything close to the defense that would resemble what he'd want ideally and theres really no way they can realistically reshape this current unit within a few months (or even over the next year.) You can't just look at his resume and find a similar situation from a decade ago and point to that as why it would work. You need to look at the most recent examples of his body of work because thats way more relevant (same as it was with Laviolette.)

I don't know how anyone could have watched this team defend the last few years and decide that they'd be okay with a HC who was behind the bench for a team that was even worse at it than the Rangers were.
 
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haohmaru said:
Good article on Sullivan's departure here:

www.nytimes.com

No one is to blame for the Penguins-Mike Sullivan split. It was just time

Sullivan's final chapters in Pittsburgh weren't great, but he is a giant in Penguins history and will be remembered as such.
www.nytimes.com www.nytimes.com

Use archive.ph if you can't read it.
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A couple of months ago, Mike Sullivan was fuming about something he heard on the radio.
Sully won’t play the kids.
Nothing irritated the now-former coach of the Pittsburgh Penguins more than that.
Standing in a hallway at the team’s practice facility, a very animated Sullivan pointed toward replica Stanley Cup banners and said, “They don’t ever take those banners down.”
The message was simple: We haven’t had any good, young players in years because we traded prospects and draft picks in the name of winning more of those banners.
Then, his mind went back to what he had heard on the radio.
“Did I not play Jake Guentzel? How about Bryan Rust? How about Conor Sheary? Did he not go straight to Sidney Crosby’s line?”
He did play them, of course. He won championships with them. He’s the most accomplished coach in Penguins history and maybe the best. He saved Crosby, Evgeni Malkin and Kris Letang from being one-hit wonders. He’ll be able to name his next job.
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NickyFotiu said:
People may forget the Penguins that won 2 cups were playing below expectations before Sully was hired. In fact they were beat by us in the first round of the playoffs the season before Sully was hired.

He also coached Boston to a first place record.
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The 15-16 Pens were really mediocre until Sullivan got hired.

Mike Johnston had Sidney Crosby playing like Brandon Prust through December until Sullivan came in and was like, “yeah we’re gonna not do that anymore” lmao
 
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Sullivan is already well aware of some of the Rangers' flaws. At the Four Nations tournament, Chris Kreider was used as the 12th or 13th forward for Team USA, while Adam Fox saw his ice time and responsibilities steadily decrease as the event progressed. Despite this, the Rangers — along with sections of their fanbase and media — believe they are just a few moves away from becoming a true Stanley Cup contender.

But when you watch these playoff games, it’s clear the Rangers aren’t even in the same ballpark. Watching Game 4 of the Dallas-Colorado series, John Forslund and Eddie Olczyk pointed out how Cale Makar was forcing the play, using his skating and creativity to generate offense because his team desperately needed a win. Fox simply isn't capable of playing that style.

The Rangers are a flawed team. They’ll likely offer Sullivan a blank check to come aboard, but the reality is there might be better coaching opportunities opening up within the next year. Sullivan might be better off sitting out next season and collecting his money from Pittsburgh, rather than jumping into a tough situation in New York.
 
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GoAwayPanarin said:
Bigggg difference here -

Prime Crosby, Malkin and Kessel vs whats on the NYR roster right now. There was more to the Pens turn around in 2016 than just Sullivan (they added Bonino, Hagelin, etc) and became a wagon. Now he pushed hard for Hagelin so if you want to give him credit for that iteration of the Pens then fine. He was certainly a part of it.

Look at the last few though. it's not just age or bad goal tending (they basically broke even in goal the 2 seasons prior to this one mind you) they've pretty much regressed across the board. Where have the adjustments been? How do you add Erik Karlsson and get worse at offense?

We don't have anything close to the defense that would resemble what he'd want ideally and theres really no way they can realistically reshape this current unit within a few months (or even over the next year.) You can't just look at his resume and find a similar situation from a decade ago and point to that as why it would work. You need to look at the most recent examples of his body of work because thats way more relevant (same as it was with Laviolette.)

I don't know how anyone could have watched this team defend the last few years and decide that they'd be okay with a HC who was behind the bench for a team that was even worse at it than the Rangers were.
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On the question of how a team gets worse adding EK to their offense-----I don't think it's a given adding a top quality offensive defenseman when you pretty much already had a guy who could run a top power play in Letang means your team is going to be an even better power play or offense. A team has only got so much offense in it and so many power play goals in it. As I saw it to some degree the Pens were minimizing the impact of both Letang and Karlsson on any given game in general and they were paying for it with two very high contracts. To boot neither one of them is a defensive whiz and they're both aging and injury prone. If I remember Karlsson cost them a lot in young assets besides and when they really needed to be focusing on building their development system which was bottom of the league.

The Pittsburgh GM stuck with his aging team and some of that for sentimental reasons. The Caps were pretty much in a similar place 3/4 years ago but adding quality draft picks + some shrewd mid round picks has put them in a much much better place than the Pens are now. That said Crosby has 3 cups and Ovechkin 1. There was a little more to be sentimental about I suppose from a Pens perspective but they're really paying for that sentimentality now.
 
RangerBoy said:
Sullivan is already well aware of some of the Rangers' flaws. At the Four Nations tournament, Chris Kreider was used as the 12th or 13th forward for Team USA, while Adam Fox saw his ice time and responsibilities steadily decrease as the event progressed. Despite this, the Rangers — along with sections of their fanbase and media — believe they are just a few moves away from becoming a true Stanley Cup contender.

But when you watch these playoff games, it’s clear the Rangers aren’t even in the same ballpark. Watching Game 4 of the Dallas-Colorado series, John Forslund and Eddie Olczyk pointed out how Cale Makar was forcing the play, using his skating and creativity to generate offense because his team desperately needed a win. Fox simply isn't capable of playing that style.

The Rangers are a flawed team. They’ll likely offer Sullivan a blank check to come aboard, but the reality is there might be better coaching opportunities opening up within the next year. Sullivan might be better off sitting out next season and collecting his money from Pittsburgh, rather than jumping into a tough situation in New York.
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Rangers have a goalie. These coaches know that’s there’s their meal ticket in this league. How many guys have lost their jobs over the last few years because their goalie can’t stop a beach ball? It’s not an interchangeable part. Rangers have their flaws but the players made it obvious all year they quit. And then some doubled down after the season ended. Remove those guys from top roles and there’s a lot to like on our team imo. Question will be if the next coach can get Lafreniere and KAM to reach their potential.
 
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GppfMcXXUAAodYv.jpg


Today I learned that Matthew Tkachuk can't skate
 
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RangerBoy said:
But when you watch these playoff games, it’s clear the Rangers aren’t even in the same ballpark. Watching Game 4 of the Dallas-Colorado series, John Forslund and Eddie Olczyk pointed out how Cale Makar was forcing the play, using his skating and creativity to generate offense because his team desperately needed a win. Fox simply isn't capable of playing that style.
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Fox can't play that style but he absolutely can and has willed his team to a win by taking over games. he needs to get back to that one way or another. Injuries, Housley effect, freelancing because no one wants to listen to coaches, whatever, he needs to get back to better results on the ice.

Even in a "down year" he still pretty much dominates all on ice metrics but he needs to clean some things up if he wants to get back to performing at the level that will catch the eye of Norris voters etc. Better body language, making more plays with his feet, etc
 
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