Speculation: Roster Building thread - Part XVII - (TDL is March 7th)

[SnowblindNYR]

He was drafted higher, he was ranked #1 NHL affiliated prospect by TSN and Gabe isn’t even in the top 14. On HFBoards Main Boards Prospect Rankings Polls Gabe was ranked 48th after being drafted, Kravtsov was ranked 27th. Following respective seasons Gabe moved up to 23, and Kravtsov moved up to 7.

Kravtsov was undeniably more hyped than Gabe by NHL GM’s who drafted them, by hockey media, and by consensus of this website.

And even if he weren’t, Kakko & Lafreniere obviously were. Not trying to crap on the kid but we should not be writing him in as some sure thing to be a ppg+ player. Our track record with even more highly touted prospects is abysmal. And Gabe does have those same limitations with skating as well as size.

Only thing that I'll give you is the draft position and projections. But it was a different draft. And the post-draft hype is all built from draft position.

 

[Alluckks]

Either put Schneider at LD to play with Fox or trade him for Byram to play with Fox, for the love of god

 

[haohmaru]

Kravtsov was undeniably more hyped than Gabe by NHL GM’s who drafted them, by hockey media, and by consensus of this website.

He's also top 10 in scoring in the KHL this year so the guy DOES have some game. I wonder if he'll give the NHL another shot, or will a team give him another shot, at some point in the future.

 

[bl02]

Great we traded a real good young center only to trade for a young dman with the same injury issues
Makes sense

 

[Machinehead]

Zero doubt. Kreider and Mika (more Mika) joined the country club after being really successful NHLers who EARNED reputations as such. Fox did the same, it just basically took no time out of the gate for him to start earning that reputation. Lafreniere has worked harder on how loudly he can snap his bubble gum than being anything but a forgettable 1OA so far. He should be giving Panarin half his paycheck for the duration of his contract.

Don’t even misconstrue Fox frustration with whatever the f*** Laf is. With Fox it’s people seeing what he’s capable of and wanting him to have the determination (especially as a Rangers fan who dreamt of this so badly) to put in a Mackinnon-like commitment to constant improvement and fitness, because of where the ceiling would be if he did that. People don’t want to see 90% of Fox’s potential. They want to see 105% of it. That’s - IMO - where talk about “apathy” and fitness come from with him.

Lafreniere is a different kind of apathy. He made it to the NHL. He’s an NHLer in NY city, #1 pick, O6 team… he’s been big pimpin’ and yucking it up like he’s a 10 year vet since day 1, but he hasn’t done f*** all to back it up besides ride Panarin and Trochek’s career years last year to a 56M payday.

I also said that about Laf after his third year and said I hope he proves me wrong but he’s had his feet up thinking he’s one of the big boys since the day he arrived. I don’t know how we ended up with those two as non-controversial, consensus picks in those spots, other than the organization is cursed.

No, you right. Didn't mean to imply that people are tossing them in the same boat, just saying that Lafreniere irritates me the most.

Like, with Kreider, if this is it, then this is it. You gave me 13 years. Fox is still good. Even Zibanejad was fun for a lot of years.

13 hasn't given me anything. I wouldn't change a thing about Kreider if I could wave a wand and reset his development, because I think the risk outweighs the reward given the career he's already had. He easily met expectations.

Lafreniere, I'd go back and have us never win that lottery. It saves me stress.

 

[Boris Zubov]

I blame the Rangers for being shitty with forwards but I also can't watch Kakko and Lafreniere for several seasons and not think that they both have debilitating limitations on their own.

And it's not just skating. Both of them have a poor hockey IQ. Lafreniere is straight up lazy. He's improved on absolutely nothing. He made it to the league and put his feet up.

People get on Zibanejad (valid in some cases), Kreider, and Fox for being apathetic, out of shape, country club etc., but both Zibanejad and Kreider did way more to cement themselves as first liners in this league and measurably improved on skills.

Fox, don't even. The guy is a future Hall of Famer and I'm not even typing that comparison.

I agree with everything in this post except for the HOF part. Fox, if he finishes his contract here, is certainly a Rangers HOFer, but the NHL HOF would be a big reach for him. I just don't see it based off of one Norris win or his current stats. It's not a knock against him, but we're currently in an era where D-men are scoring 75-95 points pretty regularly. Obviously if he wins a 2nd or a Conn Smythe, the conversation changes, but that's a big if.

HOF electors for D men are all about awards, points & style. Kevin Lowe would be the only recent exception to the rule & he was selected for being on 6 Cup winners, which honestly is more than a bit laughable. He was a really solid D-man in his day, but nobody who watched him play regularly back in the 80s & 90s ever thought he was Hall bound.

 

[Machinehead]

I agree with everything in this post except for the HOF part. Fox, if he finishes his contract here, is certainly a Rangers HOFer, but the NHL HOF would be a big reach for him. I just don't see it based off of one Norris win or his current stats. It's not a knock against him, but we're currently in an era where D-men are scoring 75-95 points pretty regularly. Obviously if he wins a 2nd or a Conn Smythe, the conversation changes, but that's a big if.

HOF electors for D men are all about awards, points & style. Kevin Lowe would be the only recent exception to the rule & he was selected for being on 6 Cup winners, which honestly is more than a bit laughable. He was a really solid D-man in his day, but nobody who watched him play regularly back in the 80s & 90s ever thought he was Hall bound.

He's winning another Norris. You can bookmark that one.

And he should already have two but let's not get me started again.

 

[LokiDog]

Great we traded a real good young center only to trade for a young dman with the same injury issues
Makes sense

Byram isn’t nearly as fragile as Chytil. He played 73 games last year and 56 of 56 this year. He’s only 23. That means since turning 21 he’s missed 9 games, and that was a year where he was traded, so it may have only been 7 or 8 actual games. He’s also got huge upside as a 23 year old former 4OA who is tied for 7th in even strength scoring for D and a +11 playing 23:10 per night on a team as shitty as Buffalo.

 

[MrAlmost]

Kreider, Schneider and Lindgren for Byram and McLeod. Rebuild buffalo with an actual team and depth so they can get themselves in the mix. Adding all that would be huge on top of Thompson, Tuch, Dahlin and Power.

 

[DanielBrassard]

Byram is a strange player, but if Buffalo was willing to trade him for Schneider I think it might be worthwhile to take that risk. I’m just not that high on Schneider so that’s part of it.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

He's winning another Norris. You can bookmark that one.

And he should already have two but let's not get me started again.

He would have 2 if he had someone who was not Lindgren playing with him 2 years ago.

Straight up probably robbed him of 15 points. That alone would have closed the gap and it wouldn't have mattered that EK ended up doing something that hadn't been done in 30 years. Voters usually look for every reason they can not to pick the pure OFD if they can help it.

 

[Boris Zubov]

He's winning another Norris. You can bookmark that one.

And he should already have two but let's not get me started again.

Time will tell.

If you're talking about the year Karlsson scored 101 points, it goes directly to my Hall argument. Voters look at points & that's literally all they're concerned with. The award itself is flawed. The Norris should be awarded to the best overall defenseman, not the highest scoring one.

I've said for years if they want to celebrate the best offensive d-man every season, create a separate award. It's a crime that Bobby Orr doesn't have a trophy in his honor. Easy solution, the Orr trophy goes to the best offensive d-man & the Norris can actually be awarded to the best overall d-man. It makes too much sense, which is why it will NEVER happen.

 

[LokiDog]

No, you right. Didn't mean to imply that people are tossing them in the same boat, just saying that Lafreniere irritates me the most.

Like, with Kreider, if this is it, then this is it. You gave me 13 years. Fox is still good. Even Zibanejad was fun for a lot of years.

13 hasn't given me anything. I wouldn't change a thing about Kreider if I could wave a wand and reset his development, because I think the risk outweighs the reward given the career he's already had. He easily met expectations.

Lafreniere, I'd go back and have us never win that lottery. It saves me stress.

I’m with you here. Kreider is allowed to start sucking now. It sucks for us, but he’s 34 and played in the trenches. He left you wanting more often because he had immense physical tools, but he gave us plenty. Mika was extremely enjoyable at his peak. He should not have fallen off at the age he has to the extent he has and it seems a bit shameful on his part. Fox has been banged up a bit. I’m not his biggest fan here, but there’s no point in even including him in this conversation.

Lafreniere didn’t fall off. He never reached a level to fall from. Panarin and Trochek both had career years last year and carried him from a fairly pathetic 39 points in D+3 (for 1OA) to a respectable 57 in D+4. Now in D+5 without two established veterans having incredible years he is pacing for a pathetic 45 points. Personally, I’d trade him in a heartbeat.

Lafreniere + Schneider for Cozens, Byram, McLeod. Cozens is pacing for almost an identical year statistically but can skate well, is at least capable of playing center and winning face offs, and has had a 68 point season. It’ll get ripped to shreds but I’d do it. Cozens is 1 year older, makes 350k less. It’s a wash between the two, but he plays the better position, wins draws even if he won’t truly be a center and skates very well.

 

[Machinehead]

I actually haven't looked at Byram in awhile, just wanna get an idea.

Yeah, sure, I guess. I mean, I like the offense. I'll die on the hill that Fox's ideal partner is a puck mover.

He's not overly small either.

23, maybe there's growth there.

I'd take a flier on it depending on the deal.

 

[DanielBrassard]

I actually haven't looked at Byram in awhile, just wanna get an idea.

View attachment 984112

Yeah, sure, I guess. I mean, I like the offense. I'll die on the hill that Fox's ideal partner is a puck mover.

He's not overly small either.

23, maybe there's growth there.

I'd take a flier on it depending on the deal.

His a3z is a mixed bag over the past 3 years too. Very good in 22-23, awful last season and this season some good in zone exits but bad defending. The rest is mediocre. I don’t know what to make of him.

 

[LokiDog]

I mean, I like the player. He’s only missed 8 games the past 2 years and he’s 23 until after the year ends. Lots to work with.

 

[Machinehead]

I’m with you here. Kreider is allowed to start sucking now. It sucks for us, but he’s 34 and played in the trenches. He left you wanting more often because he had immense physical tools, but he gave us plenty. Mika was extremely enjoyable at his peak. He should not have fallen off at the age he has to the extent he has and it seems a bit shameful on his part. Fox has been banged up a bit. I’m not his biggest fan here, but there’s no point in even including him in this conversation.

Lafreniere didn’t fall off. He never reached a level to fall from. Panarin and Trochek both had career years last year and carried him from a fairly pathetic 39 points in D+3 (for 1OA) to a respectable 57 in D+4. Now in D+5 without two established veterans having incredible years he is pacing for a pathetic 45 points. Personally, I’d trade him in a heartbeat.

Lafreniere + Schneider for Cozens, Byram, McLeod. Cozens is pacing for almost an identical year statistically but can skate well, is at least capable of playing center and winning face offs, and has had a 68 point season. It’ll get ripped to shreds but I’d do it. Cozens is 1 year older, makes 350k less. It’s a wash between the two, but he plays the better position, wins draws even if he won’t truly be a center and skates very well.

Agreed on all of this. I think it's fair to say it would have been ideal if Kreider were meaner, but he have up his back to play in hard areas.

Zibanejad is pretty soft at this point, but just to be on NHL ice after his head injuries deserves some props.

Lafreniere, I can't give him anything. And this turning into me venting so I'll leave him alone after this one.

He had the whole world in front of him. Just as an example, 50-goal Kreider and young forecheck monster Kreider are not the same player. He reinvented his game when he lost speed because he worked on shit. All this talent, and Lafreniere hasn't gotten better at one thing.

And he's annoying too! He has this punchable swagger like he's David Pastrnak and if he was, great! Even better! But you know...nah.

 

[Machinehead]

His a3z is a mixed bag over the past 3 years too. Very good in 22-23, awful last season and this season some good in zone exits but bad defending. The rest is mediocre. I don’t know what to make of him.

I'd take a mixed big with some upside if the shoe fit. Miller is a mixed bag and he and Fox outscore opponents 69-2 together.

 

[McRanger92]

I actually haven't looked at Byram in awhile, just wanna get an idea.

View attachment 984112

Yeah, sure, I guess. I mean, I like the offense. I'll die on the hill that Fox's ideal partner is a puck mover.

He's not overly small either.

23, maybe there's growth there.

I'd take a flier on it depending on the deal.

He was a high draft pick and won a cup. Defenseman take a bit to develop and I like anyone's upside coming out of Buffalo. I saw Rangers are scouting Buf/Car tonight. Sabres have a lot of players who fit our needs and timeline, but idk if there is a trade to be made there.

 

[DanielBrassard]

I'd take a mixed big with some upside if the shoe fit. Miller is a mixed bag and he and Fox outscore opponents 69-2 together.

That’s true, I just wonder if trying to sign a guy like Orlov or Gavrikov in UFA. Both who are really solid defensively and have more of a track record. I could be persuaded either way.

 

[Profet]

All this talent, and Lafreniere hasn't gotten better at one thing.

Are you kidding?

He has perfected the let up off the gas after entering the zone and turning away from traffic for the cross ice backhand shovel pass to the waiting defender.

It's basically automatic now. He doesn't even have to think about it.

 

[LokiDog]

I'd take a mixed big with some upside if the shoe fit. Miller is a mixed bag and he and Fox outscore opponents 69-2 together.

This, and Byram is 1.5 years younger with 4OA pedigree, a Cup which he played really well in the playoffs for, and he produces at 5v5. He has the speed and puck moving to compliment Fox, he plays 23+ per night and he’s got a feisty compete level. Not a huge hitter but he shows up to play. Plenty of room to grow. IMO his hockey IQ blows KAM out of the water as well. He’s just young and now on a bad team. He’d be tied for 4th on our team for EV points.

 

[McRanger92]

Schneider+Lindgren+Othmann for Byram and McLeod. Who says no?

 

[Machinehead]

You know who I do like? Matt Rempe.

Don't tell Ed!

I've enjoyed his time this year. He's a menace on the forecheck and causes some skitters, he draws penalties like crazy, and his "against" numbers actually aren't bad at all. He can definitely read the game at this level enough to be sound and, although he has flaws in this department, he's far from a hopeless skater.

He's an NHL player and I don't care what the main boards say.

He just needs to stay on the ice and not get arrested.

 

[McRanger92]

You know who I do like? Matt Rempe.

Don't tell Ed!

I've enjoyed his time this year. He's a menace on the forecheck and causes some skitters, he draws penalties like crazy, and his "against" numbers actually aren't bad at all. He can definitely read the game at this level enough to be sound and, although he has flaws in this department, he's far from a hopeless skater.

He's an NHL player and I don't care what the main boards say.

He just needs to stay on the ice and not get arrested.

He’s good dude. As long as he stops looking for hits and just plays a simple game he will be a player. I think he deserves way more trust from Laviolette.