Speculation: Roster Building thread - Part XVII - (TDL is March 7th)

[NickyFotiu]

That's fair. I'd have to be blown away but yeah if they were able to get an equal or better player for him, I'd listen. It's the "trade him gor futures" deals in don't care for much.

I agree with that. Some guys I'm okay trading for picks in hopes of packaging for a top player down the road but with someone like Fox we need to know we are getting a top 10-30 player back.

 

[pld459666]

I honestly can not understand how anyone can be 100% trade Fox or 100% do not trade Fox until they hear what would be coming back in return.

Why can't we be 100% do not trade Fox until we hear the return?

Let's understand that is not going to be a Hockey trade that gets it done.

Think of a ridiculous return, then add to it for me to consider a deal.

Let me add that moving Fox opens up a hole that would need to be filled and if that player is not coming back, then any deal involving Fox MUST have a plan in place to address the gaping hole his departure creates.

Not a down the road plan, a plan that addresses his replacement this summer

 

[effen]

So, just so we are clear, "punching down" is calling out players and potentially wanting them traded that are playing bad and/or not living up to their contract and "punching up" i can only assume would be the inverse: calling out and wanting traded players that are playing well and living up to their contract. You think that the punching down is the bad position to have and that punching up is good. So you want to keep players that are bad and get rid of players that are good.

Players with NMCs are traded every season and every off-season. We literally just acquired one.

I have absolutely no idea how you made that absurd set of conditionals.

If you don't think this place is an echo chamber wrt player evaluation you're not consuming it in the same way I am. Just look at the reaction to discussing Adam Fox.

People are still like farming anti Jacob Trouba posts.

 

[RangersFan1994]

 

[NickyFotiu]

Why can't we be 100% do not trade Fox until we hear the return?

Let's understand that is not going to be a Hockey trade that gets it done.

Think of a ridiculous return, then add to it for me to consider a deal.

Let me add that moving Fox opens up a hole that would need to be filled and if that player is not coming back, then any deal involving Fox MUST have a plan in place to address the gaping hole his departure creates.

Not a down the road plan, a plan that addresses his replacement this summer

Small disagreement. I do any trade that makes the team better. If its Dman for Dman that is fine but if a dominant forward comes for a Dman or vice versa I do that as well. Anything that makes the team better. I'd even do a goalie for a dominant forward or Dman if it makes the team better.

 

[RangersFan1994]

 

[bernmeister]

I honestly can not understand how anyone can be 100% trade Fox or 100% do not trade Fox until they hear what would be coming back in return.

Agree, and this particular thread exists to have a competition of ideas as to what value can be assessed on a given proposal, and why
The anti-trade under any conditions group needs to explain itself after looking in the mirror

And we have the right to mock stupid ideas

Yes.
YOU have a right of free speech to mock WHAT IN YOUR OPINION IS A STUPID IDEA
and then you have an obligation to listen to others exercising their right to rebuff you

OMG, can't believe how thick you're.

Zibanejad has not been the best player since the break. He is the most improved relative to his performance before the break that had been a complete dog shit.

Glad to see, like John Lennon said in "Imagine" that "I'm not the only one".

The *ONLY* situation where trading Fox could come anywhere close to making an ounce of sense is a 100% tear down to the studs rebuild. Anyone with a brain can see that's not happening, ergo, anyone with a brain can see that trading Fox makes no sense at all.

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

We are approaching that now.
And no, btw
Pls have an open mind to the correct logic of the situation

If you can get enuf profit in a deal that helps the team going forward, you do the deal.
It is fair to ask what that looks like generally but fairer still to compare and contrast different deals

Yes, if tear down to the studs, then likelihood of that goes up
but we should always be open minded to any good deals at any time

failure to do that and hold to Buch until the very last second is how we wound up w/bupkis for him

let's not repeat that w/Fox, Shesty + others

Same age that we traded Brad Park and would be just about as smart.

entirely different
Rod Gilbert PERSONALLY told me directly that deal was done b'c Cat Francis, damn you to hell, wanted to prove he could control things, not the team

And that stupid deal, Joe Zanussi aside, was basically a C + a D for the same.

We don't have to be that close minded.
We can look at selling for a haul of mostly futures that will help us recover from all these stupid rentals

That's fair. I'd have to be blown away but yeah if they were able to get an equal or better player for him, I'd listen. It's the "trade him gor futures" deals in don't care for much.

the prob here is you are demonstrating closemindedness vs futures.
best deal could be current established players, futures, or a combo

howev, we need youth
admit it
stop w/failed win now
learn from da bern

Why can't we be 100% do not trade Fox until we hear the return?

Let's understand that is not going to be a Hockey trade that gets it done.

Think of a ridiculous return, then add to it for me to consider a deal.

b'c this is a board and we should take advantage of the opportunity to discuss potential returns and not wait until there is a deal/imminent deal

 

[Alluckks]

No, I'm being sarcastic.

You’re a normal person though. And not being a condescending dumbass that talks like a robot built to terminally review 1,000 page business merger contracts

Trading Fox is highly unlikely to happen any time within the next 3-4 years, if ever. It flat out won’t happen this year or offseason. It is perfectly fine to advocate for something and explore thoughts, fun proposals, etc.; that is the entire point of being a fan. But all that kinda flies out the window if someone is just posting with a weird agenda, not discussing, and levying insults in between - all the while never really interacting with people in a normal way. It wouldn’t matter if you are saying trade Fox or trade trade Zac freakin Jones, but it certainly is an aggravated situation when the hill to die on has become such a strange one

 

[pld459666]

Small disagreement. I do any trade that makes the team better. If its Dman for Dman that is fine but if a dominant forward comes for a Dman or vice versa I do that as well. Anything that makes the team better. I'd even do a goalie for a dominant forward or Dman if it makes the team better.

Trading Fox even for Draisaitl doesn't make this team better

Having no defenders capable of producing offense doesn't make this team better

 

[eco's bones]

Players can be traded.....even Fox but it would be beyond stupid for the Rangers to do so with no other defenseman in the entire organization who has proven he can run an NHL power play. Moving him for another D who can.....well okay but who and why? He's better than most at it.

It might actually behoove the Rangers to have a second D next year who's at least half-assed good at playing on the power play. Miller isn't, Schneider isn't, Borgen isn't, Lindgren isn't, Vaakanainen isn't. Jones hasn't proven anything either and even Brannstrom not that much and he's in Hartford for now anyway.

 

[MrAlmost]

I have absolutely no idea how you made that absurd set of conditionals.

If you don't think this place is an echo chamber wrt player evaluation you're not consuming it in the same way I am. Just look at the reaction to discussing Adam Fox.

People are still like farming anti Jacob Trouba posts.

Well i can't argue against the echo chamber nor the constant trouba complaining. You can name a million others too. Buch trade being my personal favorite.

The way you are making talking about trading Fox sound vs trading someone like Z is disingenuous. One is playing bad and should be a candidate to be moved for an upgrade or for pieces to acquire an upgrade. The other literally has no comparable player outside Makar and Hughes. It literally doesn't get any better. Maybe Werenski gets to that level if he finally plays a full season. Bouchard is Defense Rantanen. A product of 2 other players boosting his numbers.

The question should be who can we trade to get a guy like Theodore to play WITH Fox. There are plenty around the league.

But I understand now that I think you were referring to other poster punching down on minority ideas. Thats still not entirely fair use of the term, but I get it.

 

[NickyFotiu]

Trading Fox even for Draisaitl doesn't make this team better

Having no defenders capable of producing offense doesn't make this team better

Floridas top D point guy last season was Forsling with 39. Did not stop them from winning the cup. We also played pretty well when Fox was out last season. Not bashing on Fox but I think the notion that you can only trade offensive dman for offensive dman is myopic especially since Fox is not a huge goal scorer this year.

 

[Flan the incredible]

I am fairly certain Drury hands out NMC clauses just so a large portion of the posters on this board can go on a tangent about why they would trade that player. Its like flies to honey. They see that NMC and thats the guy the Rangers need to move. Whats odd is most of the trade proposals center around these players.

Fox's NMC kicks in next year so glad we are getting an early start to things that won't happen.

 

[kovazub94]

I would prefer to know the real deal that is offered (for all players) more than a likelihood before deciding. If its a bad deal we say no just like we should for most players.

Well, we just got a bona fide 1C on relatively similar contract and term. Would you make this trade if Fox was the price? In this case you don’t need to know the return. You’re not getting back Makar or Hughes on D or a forward in three M range.

 

[effen]

I am fairly certain Drury hands out NMC clauses just so a large portion of the posters on this board can go on a tangent about why they would trade that player. Its like flies to honey. They see that NMC and thats the guy the Rangers need to move. Whats odd is most of the trade proposals center around these players.

Fox's NMC kicks in next year so glad we are getting an early start to things that won't happen.

My main thrust on trading Fox now is that pending NMC. I'd move Shesterkin too, for the same reason. Shesty is out of favor so I don't get 10% of the static for that one that I have for Fox.

 

[NYR Viper]

Jones too no down now for a conditioning stint, after a break in which he easily could have done the same thing and missed no NHL time, screams like a showcase to me

 

[effen]

Jones too no down now for a conditioning stint, after a break in which he easily could have done the same thing and missed no NHL time, screams like a showcase to me

For sure. They don't want to waive him. I'm not sure he has any trade value. Lots of Zac Jones come through the league at some point.

 

[NYR Viper]

For sure. They don't want to waive him. I'm not sure he has any trade value. Lots of Zac Jones come through the league at some point.

Maybe, but I think there will be teams who sell a d-man at the deadline willing to give Jones a 20 game trial to see what he can do. That's likely worth a mid round pick for someone who likes him as a player.

 

[SA16]

Jones too no down now for a conditioning stint, after a break in which he easily could have done the same thing and missed no NHL time, screams like a showcase to me

The player has to agree to accept a conditioning loan. Why would he have agreed to it two weeks ago when he was just about to have a two week vacation? There's a good chance he already had plans to go away somewhere during that time period. He's not missing any NHL time because he wasn't going to be playing anyway.

 

[NickyFotiu]

Well, we just got a bona fide 1C on relatively similar contract and term. Would you make this trade if Fox was the price? In this case you don’t need to know the return. You’re not getting back Makar or Hughes on D or a forward in three M range.

I wouldn't trade Fox for that price but every trade is individual. JT is older with a NTC and had other factors involved in his trade. If that is all we would get for Fox then the rest of the NHL GMs do not value Fox nearly as much as people on our board.

 

[Siddi]

OMG, can't believe how thick you're.

Zibanejad has not been the best player since the break. He is the most improved relative to his performance before the break that had been a complete dog shit.

I dont know what to tell you. Other posters can see this and GAP posted a well done breakdown of the analytics showing how Zibanejad has been the best player since the break.

One more time for the ones in the back:
If the season started januari 1st then Zibanejad would be the teams best player according to the analytics.

Either you deal with it or admit you dont believe in advanced stats and then we can place you on the same island as Bern.

 

[eco's bones]

Floridas top D point guy last season was Forsling with 39. Did not stop them from winning the cup. We also played pretty well when Fox was out last season. Not bashing on Fox but I think the notion that you can only trade offensive dman for offensive dman is myopic especially since Fox is not a huge goal scorer this year.

When Fox went down Erik Gustafson took over his spot on the power play until he came back. Gustafsson has been a power play producer before. If I remember he had a 60/70 year in Chicago one time and he was coming off a season where he replaced an injured John Carlson in Washington doing that role and doing it pretty well. The Rangers were able to adjust while Fox was out and I think he was out 10 games which wasn't like forever.

We've seen Miller on the power play before. Reminds me a lot of when Tortorella was trying to make Marc Staal into a power play guy and it didn't work because Staal wasn't very creative with the puck and had no deception and ditto for K'Andre and K'Andre's really our second best. It's like the step down from Fox to Miller is almost like falling off a cliff bottomless.

 

[NickyFotiu]

When Fox went down Erik Gustafson took over his spot on the power play until he came back. Gustafsson has been a power play producer before. If I remember he had a 60/70 year in Chicago one time and he was coming off a season where he replaced an injured John Carlson in Washington doing that role and doing it pretty well. The Rangers were able to adjust while Fox was out and I think he was out 10 games which wasn't like forever.

We've seen Miller on the power play before. Reminds me a lot of when Tortorella was trying to make Marc Staal into a power play guy and it didn't work because Staal wasn't very creative with the puck and had no deception and ditto for K'Andre and K'Andre's really our second best. It's like the step down from Fox to Miller is almost like falling off a cliff bottomless.

And the step up from Leo?

 

[jerseyjinx94]

Y

Few players stay with 1 team their whole career. Most hypothetical trades are unlikely but this is a hockey forum. Isn't discussing hockey in all aspects what we do here?

yeah you can post whatever you want but people are going to respond to it and tell you it’s not realistic.

Being like “I think the Rangers should consider trading Fox” and then people saying “why would you trade Fox” and then you say “well let’s see the return first right” well you brought it up, what’s the return? What I’m saying is that the return would have to be something that is not going to be offered for it to be a good deal for NYR. So there’s really no point in discussing it bc it’s just not going to happen. If the Rangers put Fox out there they’d get really good futures packages but you’re saying you want a top 10-15 player in the league. So, who are they getting?

 

[NickyFotiu]

Y

yeah you can post whatever you want but people are going to respond to it and tell you it’s not realistic.

Being like “I think the Rangers should consider trading Fox” and then people saying “why would you trade Fox” and then you say “well let’s see the return first right” well you brought it up, what’s the return? What I’m saying is that the return would have to be something that is not going to be offered for it to be a good deal for NYR. So there’s really no point in discussing it bc it’s just not going to happen. If the Rangers put Fox out there they’d get really good futures packages but you’re saying you want a top 10-15 player in the league. So, who are they getting?

I don't see a top 10-15 player in return. I don't want to waste time with the people that keep saying Fox is a top 3 Dman today. As of today I do not think Fox brings back a top 25 player. Maybe one day he will be in that range again but he hasn't been this season imo. The tournament didn't help his trade value.