Speculation: Roster Building Thread : Part XV (Light em up!)

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Rangers’ recent surge likely not enough to make them renters at deadline


2. Will Borgen, the 28-year-old righty defenseman acquired in exchange for Kaapo Kakko, has been a solid top-four at both ends of the ice. He gets pucks to the net on one end and clears bodies in front of the net at the other end.
Notable that Larry's stated summary of what defensemen to is limited to getting pucks to the net on offense & clearing bodies in front on defense.

No mention of positioning, gap control, reading the play, winning board battles, passing under duress, breakouts, transition, etc. .... Understanding of the role of defensemen in NYR culture is cartoon-like.
 
Agreed "body checker."

However, on the second point, I'd say Zibs was the worst on the team (relative to his peak 3-4 years ago). His coordination seemed way off, & still does. Losing pucks, missing pucks, no accuracy on the shot, giving up multiple odd-man rushes per game, appearing disengaged. ... He seems like he's skating better & thinking the game better over the last little bit. But he still has the yips re handling the puck. Saturday night he was still doing this.

Peak Kreider had 52 goals
Peak Lindgren was an NHL defenseman
Peak Chytil played 70 games
Peak Fox is Norris
Peak Shesterkin is Vezina
Peak Panarin is top 3 Hart
Peak KAM is > than anything we’ve seen this year

Zibanejad isn’t a guy on an island. He’s a piece of a puzzle with a ton of simultaneous issues.
 
Peak Kreider had 52 goals
Peak Lindgren was an NHL defenseman
Peak Chytil played 70 games
Peak Fox is Norris
Peak Shesterkin is Vezina
Peak Panarin is top 3 Hart
Peak KAM is > than anything we’ve seen this year

Zibanejad isn’t a guy on an island. He’s a piece of a puzzle with a ton of simultaneous issues.
This organization seems, to me, to have some issues with forward development and the deterioration of skills.

They also had a bunch of guys have career-best outlier years around the same time and hitched their wagon to those guys as though that was now the expectation.

I think both of those are true.
 
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At this point Drury has to ask himself what the likelihood is that the return ends up being better than the player being moved.

Ie… is a 2nd round pick likely to end up being better than a re-signed Borgen? Probably not.

They also had a bunch of guys have career-best outlier years around the same time and hitched their wagon to those guys as though that was now the expectation.

And this year is the opposite outlier. They’ve all, mostly, sucked.
 
At this point Drury has to ask himself what the likelihood is that the return ends up being better than the player being moved.

Ie… is a 2nd round pick likely to end up being better than a re-signed Borgen? Probably not.

I don’t think it’s that simple.

It’s 2nd rd pick vs Borgen or who ever at what ever contract they sign.

If their ask is to crazy then it’s a 2nd vs nothing.
 
Notable that Larry's stated summary of what defensemen to is limited to getting pucks to the net on offense & clearing bodies in front on defense.

No mention of positioning, gap control, reading the play, winning board battles, passing under duress, breakouts, transition, etc. .... Understanding of the role of defensemen in NYR culture is cartoon-like.
Its certainly dated, but Brooksie isn't reporting this incorrectly.
 
If it’s fair market price you forget the 2nd

Sure but it almost never is for UFAs or pending UFAs.

Borgen is the only one who they should even consider keeping and I say this as someone who likes Smith (realistically speaking, if smith wants to take a 3x3 then that changes shit but he won’t.)

Same goes for Borgen. He’s been good here but there’s no need to overpay for him.

There is no contract that makes bringing back Lindgren a good idea.
 
At this point Drury has to ask himself what the likelihood is that the return ends up being better than the player being moved.

Ie… is a 2nd round pick likely to end up being better than a re-signed Borgen? Probably not.



And this year is the opposite outlier. They’ve all, mostly, sucked.

I don’t think it’s that simple.

It’s 2nd rd pick vs Borgen or who ever at what ever contract they sign.

If their ask is to crazy then it’s a 2nd vs nothing.

If it’s fair market price you forget the 2nd


The equation is a bit mo complicated than that.
Everybody wants top $$ but setting aside our owner can pay that, cap won't allow it

So it is not just a 2nd in a vacuum
It is a 2nd vs need to CONSTANTLY develop younger, cheaper core
so roster is more manageable [greater flex vs cap]
 
Mika may never have been much of a checker, but he is a big guy (and used to play around 220lbs) who was not afraid of contact and using his body to protect the puck or separate an opponent from it. That doesn’t have to be a “hit” but…

In NY, so same score keepers, etc. he was racking up 134 hits in 82 games back in 2019/20ish. That’s like 1.6 hits per game. This year he is on pace for 29 hits (about .4). Last year he registered 49 (a little over .5). The year before it was 71 (about .85) Before that it was 75 in 57 games (over 1.25). There’s a trend.

He has clearly developed an allergy to even MAKING contact, let alone delivering a hit. He’s becoming more averse to any type of contact each year. A guy like Mika doesn’t need to be lining people up, but in order to resemble the player he was when he was highly successful he has to understand that using his size and strength to shield the puck or push a defender off of it is still necessary.

He was never Lindros, but (22-23’s) 39 goals, 91 points, 71 hits in 82 games is still a dramatically different player than 8 goals, 27 points, 15 hits in 42 games. And even though 71 hits in 82 games isn’t a lot, it’s still more than double the current pace. Interestingly, the production is also nearly 1/2. He’s not engaging and he’s not Panarin or Hughes or Kane who can dance around avoiding contact, so he better figure out where he keeps his man bits, reinstall them and get back to playing in the trenches a bit.

I don’t care if he hits, but he’s 31 years old and he’s been avoiding contact since he turned maybe 28? It’s unacceptable. Go push somebody. Go find the other teams’ Fox or Hughes or other smallish defender and use your size. He’s a good skater. Go combine your skating and your size and make some 5’10 defender’s life miserable for a night. You may even enjoy it and gain some confidence from it. Right now Mika would rather duck a hit from 5’7 Zuccarello than laugh and let him bounce of him. Go play soccer then, maybe you can draw a yellow card. Hockey is never not going to have a bare minimum physicality to it, so unless you’re in the .1% of shifty, slippery stick handlers in the world, you’re going to have to come to terms with that.

Another way of putting it, in 890 career games he has laid 1,052 hits. In his last 205 games he’s registered 135 hits. Which means in the 685 games prior he’d registered 917.

And it isn’t even “hitting” that’s important in this case, but if the numbers have lowered that considerably, imagine how much weaker on puck protection and in pursuit of gaining possession he has become.
 
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The crop of UFA d-men is pretty bad this upcoming off-season. We have all chatted quite a bit on the higher end of the spectrum (Gavrikov, Provorov, Orlov) but what are people's thoughts on someone like Olli Maata? He's a smooth skating LD. He was originally drafted as a point producer but that never came to fruition. He's playing ~22 minutes a night in Utah this year as a 30 year old and has 8 points in 32 games. Health has been a concern for him in the past (his last 82 game season was when he was 23). Could he a decent mid-tier UFA signing to play up and down the lineup and compliment someone like Schneider or Fox?


I'm looking at the RD available in UFA and I really don't see an option anywhere close to as good as Borgen. If he will accept a mid-term reasonable contract, say $3.25-3.5m per season for 4-5 years, I'd probably lean towards keeping him. I have brought up the option of trying to trade him to a team who we know won't have the cap space to re-sign him in the off-season and work out an off-season trade for his UFA right back to sign him then before he hits UFA. So something like:

To EDM:
Will Borgen @ 50% + Jimmy Vesey

to NYR:
EDM 2nd '25 + 3rd '26 + 5th '26

And then in the off-season, trade them back that 5th '26 for his rights
 
I don’t think it’s that simple.

It’s 2nd rd pick vs Borgen or who ever at what ever contract they sign.

If their ask is to crazy then it’s a 2nd vs nothing.
I agree. What do they call that.. a false dilemma? It's not like your trading Borgen and then do nothing. It's not The Return VS Borgen... you'd go out and sign a bottom pairing to fill the role, you have Mancini in the mix as well. That kid has had some ups and downs when he was here. How much of the bad is because of how disjointed this roster was? But he's had some real bright spots showing what he's capable of. I'm plenty comfortable with Fox/Schneider/Mancini next year with the possibility of signing a bottom pairing guy to hedge against Mancini faltering. But I do not want to block the kid.

I don't see the allure of keeping Borgen. Are people forgetting that we had both Borgen and Vaakanainen and the team was still in shambles and the D was still playing like shit. Them included. People were ready to launch Borgen and Vaak into the sun not too many games ago. Short memories. Bringing in these 2 guys did not transform the defense. The team is simply playing better as a whole and we've won a few games. But I'd hardly change my outlook because of it. Borgen should still be a useful trade chip. Just my opinion
 
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Mika may never have been much of a checker, but he is a big guy (and used to play around 220lbs) who was not afraid of contact and using his body to protect the puck or separate an opponent from it. That doesn’t have to be a “hit” but…

In NY, so same score keepers, etc. he was racking up 134 hits in 82 games back in 2019/20ish. That’s like 1.6 hits per game. This year he is on pace for 29 hits (about .4). Last year he registered 49 (a little over .5). The year before it was 71 (about .85) Before that it was 75 in 57 games (over 1.25). There’s a trend.

He has clearly developed an allergy to even MAKING contact, let alone delivering a hit. He’s becoming more averse to any type of contact each year. A guy like Mika doesn’t need to be lining people up, but in order to resemble the player he was when he was highly successful he has to understand that using his size and strength to shield the puck or push a defender off of it is still necessary.

He was never Lindros, but (22-23’s) 39 goals, 91 points, 71 hits in 82 games is still a dramatically different player than 8 goals, 27 points, 15 hits in 42 games. And even though 71 hits in 82 games isn’t a lot, it’s still more than double the current pace. Interestingly, the production is also nearly 1/2. He’s not engaging and he’s not Panarin or Hughes or Kane who can dance around avoiding contact, so he better figure out where he keeps his man bits, reinstall them and get back to playing in the trenches a bit.

I don’t care if he hits, but he’s 31 years old and he’s been avoiding contact since he turned maybe 28? It’s unacceptable. Go push somebody. Go find the other teams’ Fox or Hughes or other smallish defender and use your size. He’s a good skater. Go combine your skating and your size and make some 5’10 defender’s life miserable for a night. You may even enjoy it and gain some confidence from it. Right now Mika would rather duck a hit from 5’7 Zuccarello than laugh and let him bounce of him. Go play soccer then, maybe you can draw a yellow card. Hockey is never not going to have a bare minimum physicality to it, so unless you’re in the .1% of shifty, slippery stick handlers in the world, you’re going to have to come to terms with that.

Another way of putting it, in 890 career games he has laid 1,052 hits. In his last 205 games he’s registered 135 hits. Which means in the 685 games prior he’d registered 917.

And it isn’t even “hitting” that’s important in this case, but if the numbers have lowered that considerably, imagine how much weaker on puck protection and in pursuit of gaining possession he has become.
thank you for providing the numbers which verify what I wuz sayin per the eye test
 
Rangers should sell their UFAs no matter what. Lindgren, Smith, Vesey(i guess). Borgen has real value around the league it seems. Makes sense because he's good. We should also be interested in Cozens as Larry mentioned. Fits the timeline better than any other trade option and when he is on he's a workhorse center who doesnt have to carry the load behind Tro-Zibanejad.

Schneider for Cozens, and we extend Borgen. Cozens plays wing or C depending on Chytil. Right side is Fox-Borg-Mancini with Emery a couple years away.

Imo you try your best to get Borgen signed to a decent deal, preferably a 2 or 3 year and if not you move him. At the right price he's a decent player and as soon as he's moved you go looking for another guy like him.
 
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