Speculation: Roster Building Thread : Part XV (Light em up!)

[HFsNumber1Heel]

Never came close to 40 again? Hows 39? Haha.

He played a role and was elite at it.

Didnt exactly help that torts loathed him

On the Rangers he only hit 33. He wasn't elite at anything other than going offsides. He was a loud pest who could draw penalties when he was interested in hockey which was about half the time when he was here. He cared more about networking with fashion and Hollywood types. Why is it that no team picked him up when he was waived in 2011?

He was as good as late 90s Tikannen.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

How would you guys feel about something around Panarin @ 50% retained for Ryan Leonard?

I'd feel great about it.

Caps aren't trading Leonard. They're way more likely to sign him at the end of BC's season and having him suit up in the playoffs for them.

 

[egelband]

I’m too old to take it down to the studs again. Dolan isn’t going to be that patient anyway. This will be a quick reload.

Agree. The Rangers have never done a rebuild. The Letter rebuild wasn’t really even a rebuild. (And I don’t blame them, some unexpected things happened and they pivoted which gave us a lot of exciting hockey).

 

[LaffyTaffy13]

On the Rangers he only hit 33. He wasn't elite at anything other than going offsides. He was a loud pest who could draw penalties when he was interested in hockey which was about half the time when he was here. He cared more about networking with fashion and Hollywood types. Why is it that no team picked him up when he was waived in 2011?

He was as good as late 90s Tikannen.

He was an elite forechecker and passer. Very very good skater too. He was one of the best 3rd liners in the league.

Ill never understand the folks who take issue with guys who toe the line. Load me up with avery’s, domi’s and barnabys all day.

And if you were being fair youd acknowledge he put up 33 points in just 57 games the overwhelming majority of which were at even strength. Aka a 47 point pace over 82

 

[egelband]

He was an elite forechecker and passer. Very very good skater too. He was one of the best 3rd liners in the league.

Ill never understand the folks who take issue with guys who toe the line. Load me up with avery’s, domi’s and barnabys all day.

And if you were being fair youd acknowledge he put up 33 points in just 57 games the overwhelming majority of which were at even strength. Aka a 47 point pace over 82

I agree. Need guys who play with emotion and have exceptional motors. The one thing I credit Drury with, is understanding this.

 

[HFsNumber1Heel]

He was an elite forechecker and passer. Very very good skater too. He was one of the best 3rd liners in the league.

Ill never understand the folks who take issue with guys who toe the line. Load me up with avery’s, domi’s and barnabys all day.

And if you were being fair youd acknowledge he put up 33 points in just 57 games the overwhelming majority of which were at even strength. Aka a 47 point pace over 82

He didn't hit 40 though. Injuries are part of the game.

I love players like Barnaby/Domi/etc. in limited roles.

The guy was treated like he was Tikannen here. Not even close. I give him credit for helping them in 2006-07 which was one of my favorite Rangers turnarounds ever (the first two post-lockout seasons were a lot of fun).

His defining moment after is the Brodeur nonsense. That's it. I remember he helped in a goal scored when he was playing with Andre Deveaux against the Islanders in November 2011. I was at that game, a few weeks before Thanksgiving and before Hagelin and Mitchell were called up. It's not iconic though.

He was good at times in a limited role when he wasn't going offsides. He lost his passion for hockey sometime after he came back from Dallas. It's a shame because they could've really used a motivated and disciplined Avery for their three long runs in 2012, 2014, 2015.

I agree. Need guys who play with emotion and have exceptional motors. The one thing I credit Drury with, is understanding this.

They're goin to work their way up the food chain as soon as next fall. Every GM brings in their own guys or their own type of players. Look what Neil Smith did from his first season to third.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

Agree. The Rangers have never done a rebuild. The Letter rebuild wasn’t really even a rebuild. (And I don’t blame them, some unexpected things happened and they pivoted which gave us a lot of exciting hockey).

It was a rebuild...they didn't develop their picks and focused on vets over kids. There should have been no pivot, the vets they had were gotten to insulate the kids not steal their ice time. Imo Kreider and Zibanejad are two of the most selfish players we've ever had, they always wanna play together and ruin whoever is on their wing. This franchise allowed those two to dictate the top 6 of the roster imo. It's time to finally hand the reigns to the kids, and to use guys like Panarin and Fox to elevate those players. Chytil is currently our best center, Berard and Cuylle are currently our best wingers not named Panarin, give them ice time. Jones should be playing, Othmann and Sykora should be playing, how could it be worse?

 

[NYR Viper]

It was a rebuild...they didn't develop their picks and focused on vets over kids. There should have been no pivot, the vets they had were gotten to insulate the kids not steal their ice time. Imo Kreider and Zibanejad are two of the most selfish players we've ever had, they always wanna play together and ruin whoever is on their wing. This franchise allowed those two to dictate the top 6 of the roster imo. It's time to finally hand the reigns to the kids, and to use guys like Panarin and Fox to elevate those players

Yep, this and too many of the picks just didn’t pan out. Hard to come back from Kravtsov, Anderson, Lundkvist, Kakko. They really only acquired Lafreniere, Schneider, Miller and Chytil. That core neither has the high end talent necessary to win, there’s not enough of them. It’s too little.

Looking around, the only high end talent the Rangers have in their entire organization under the age of 25 is Perrault and maybe Lafreniere (barring his current stretch of poor play). The rest are depth guys (some better than others of course).

Some could argue that the Rangers should have handed the keys over to the young players sooner to help with their development but some could also argue that not a single one of them has proven to either be capable or have the desire to be handed that type of responsibility and thus the veterans haven’t had to relinquish control.

With all of that said, it’s time.

 

[Siddi]

I'm sure the organization can come up with the appropriate buzz words:

"We needed a change"

"We wanted a new look"

Something vague and uninformative.

None of that will happen. Especially if he continues his current play.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

Yep, this and too many of the picks just didn’t pan out. Hard to come back from Kravtsov, Anderson, Lundkvist, Kakko. They really only acquired Lafreniere, Schneider, Miller and Chytil. That core neither has the high end talent necessary to win, there’s not enough of them. It’s too little.

Looking around, the only high end talent the Rangers have in their entire organization under the age of 25 is Perrault and maybe Lafreniere (barring his current stretch of poor play). The rest are depth guys (some better than others of course).

Some could argue that the Rangers should have handed the keys over to the young players sooner to help with their development but some could also argue that not a single one of them has proven to either be capable or have the desire to be handed that type of responsibility and thus the veterans haven’t had to relinquish control.

With all of that said, it’s time.

Did the picks not pan out or did we ruin them? One or two high level picks failing is a coincidence but the amount of prospects that were highly thought of that failed here has to be more than any other team. Watching the world juniors, Kakko and Lafreniere were top players in that tourney much like Perrault and Leonard are. Andersson was the captain of Sweden, Kravtsov was a young star playing against men in the khl. All these players have one thing in common, they never came close to their potential. I mentioned it before but Robertson was considered a guaranteed nhl dman at one point, one of the most highly thought of D in the WHL. WHAT HAPPENED TO ALL THESE GUYS? The only position we develop is goalies, and that's because we have the best goalie coach. Get better staff

 

[McRanger92]

I posted this in the laf thread but will go into further detail here.

Zib, Kreider, panarin do not hang out or converse with the younger players on the team. The locker room is a cancer. No one wants to take the captain. I’ve heard the most likely player in the room is actually trocheck. The rest of them don’t want to take the burden. Kreider and zib have basically taken a back seat and it’s become a problem. Panarin is panarin and has never been a big fan of hanging or bonding away from the rink. A lot of the younger players are trying to keep their heads down and away from the spotlight.

This seems pretty obvious from just watching the team and paying attention to them for the last 5 or so years. Trocheck has obviously been the only guy trying to bridge the divide. Panarin doesnt give a shit, and Meeka and Kreider are just sad to see another set of friends get shipped out of town. For the next year and a half until Panarin's contract is up these guys have the team hostage. Fox and Lafreniere can't step into the leadership roles pegged for them with these guys dominating the ices time and touches. Do us a favor and waive the NMCs if you're so unhappy with how things unfolded in NY.

I also wonder how Igor fits into all of the locker room dynamics.

 

[mike14]

I'm sure the organization can come up with the appropriate buzz words:

"We needed a change"

"We wanted a new look"

Something vague and uninformative.

They're not buzz words. Buzz words would be

"We need a paradigm shift"
"We wanted to realign our core offerings"

Something that could be said simply but instead is turned into business speak

 

[McRanger92]

It really doesn’t have to be an either/or scenario. Drury could continue trading away veterans this season and if he does, a retool in the offseason doesn’t need to take 4 years.acquire futures, keep those futures and make the draft picks count and make good signings or trades in the offseason

The Rangers are most likely going to make hockey trades involving Lindgren, kreider and maybe Miller before they have to pay him, as long as the losing continues. Mika and Panarin are probably resolved in some way this summer. I'll gladly take the top 5 pick this year and be ready to roll with Perreault in the lineup next year. If Im Drury Im probably looking for a veteran leader type player and 2-3 new defenseman on the left side. Othmann should get the call soon.

 

[IDvsEGO]

He was an elite forechecker and passer. Very very good skater too. He was one of the best 3rd liners in the league.

Ill never understand the folks who take issue with guys who toe the line. Load me up with avery’s, domi’s and barnabys all day.

And if you were being fair youd acknowledge he put up 33 points in just 57 games the overwhelming majority of which were at even strength. Aka a 47 point pace over 82

I dont have a problem with those guys. But they're not top 6 guys. AT ALL.

You can have them on the 3rd line. You can have them on the 4th line.

But unless they have legit skill (see Tkachuk), your team is garbage if they're in your top 6.

Additionally. Guys who don't "toe the line", well when a guy who you're going to put out for 15+ minutes is equally as likely to draw a penalty as to get called for one, you're risking putting your team down frequently. Its why I want no part of Brady Tkachuk.
There's plenty of guys who can play hard, play in the middle of the ice, who don't take mind numbingly stupid penalties.
This is not the 80's. This is not the 90's. The things that were legal then, or ignored then, are not ignored now.
You can have physical hockey without throwing elbows, without cheap shots. Teams win by not doing those things. You can play physical without them.

 

[IDvsEGO]

Did the picks not pan out or did we ruin them? One or two high level picks failing is a coincidence but the amount of prospects that were highly thought of that failed here has to be more than any other team. Watching the world juniors, Kakko and Lafreniere were top players in that tourney much like Perrault and Leonard are. Andersson was the captain of Sweden, Kravtsov was a young star playing against men in the khl. All these players have one thing in common, they never came close to their potential. I mentioned it before but Robertson was considered a guaranteed nhl dman at one point, one of the most highly thought of D in the WHL. WHAT HAPPENED TO ALL THESE GUYS? The only position we develop is goalies, and that's because we have the best goalie coach. Get better staff

Anderson has barely played in the NHL. There was a question of "did we make him play hurt" at one point. But that hasn't been raised at all, and the NHLPA would've thrown a massive fit if there'd been any evidence of it.
Kratsov bounced repeatedly to Russia, and never took offseason training seriously.
He had a look in Vancouver and was exactly the same guy here.
Kakko looks about the same in Seattle - a defensively strong middle 6 guy. Likely looks better there longer term because he's playing with a bit more speed on his line.
Laf looks like a long term piece for us. I think his down season is simply the absolute lack of puck possession. He's shown flashes, he's still got the hands, he's still shooting. But no one on this team is playing with pace right now and panarin is blowing the zone 4 seconds before anyone gets the puck. Kinda hard to score if you don't play defense and get pinned.

Kratsov and anderson btw were Bad scouting - that scout is no longer with the team.
Anderson wasn't a good enough skater. Kratsov didnt have the work ethic (the reports were he came from a very well off family in russia, and so didnt need hockey in the US).

You cant say we ruin players and not mention that - buch, mika, ck, cuylle, berard, are all NHL Players in the exact same organization...
Mika took his big massive step with the rangers. Buch was homegrown and developed here. CK same. Cuylle/Berard/Edstrom were all drafted and played in HFD,

Also the rangers have never had a problem drafting and developing defensemen. The "ruin" concerns were only about forwards.
Miller, Schneider, Jones, are all NHL defensemen in this short time frame.
When you draft a player, you draft for projections. Will this trait look good against NHL players.
Robertson was a good skating big defenseman. He's still a good skating defenseman, but he's taken zero growth in 4 years now. When you look good against WHL Guys, and then you look mid against AHL guys, you're not ready for the NHL. That's on him.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Bit late to the party with this but the "meat and potatoes" line should scare the shit out of everyone.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

Anderson has barely played in the NHL. There was a question of "did we make him play hurt" at one point. But that hasn't been raised at all, and the NHLPA would've thrown a massive fit if there'd been any evidence of it.
Kratsov bounced repeatedly to Russia, and never took offseason training seriously.
He had a look in Vancouver and was exactly the same guy here.
Kakko looks about the same in Seattle - a defensively strong middle 6 guy. Likely looks better there longer term because he's playing with a bit more speed on his line.
Laf looks like a long term piece for us. I think his down season is simply the absolute lack of puck possession. He's shown flashes, he's still got the hands, he's still shooting. But no one on this team is playing with pace right now and panarin is blowing the zone 4 seconds before anyone gets the puck. Kinda hard to score if you don't play defense and get pinned.

Kratsov and anderson btw were Bad scouting - that scout is no longer with the team.
Anderson wasn't a good enough skater. Kratsov didnt have the work ethic (the reports were he came from a very well off family in russia, and so didnt need hockey in the US).

You cant say we ruin players and not mention that - buch, mika, ck, cuylle, berard, are all NHL Players in the exact same organization...
Mika took his big massive step with the rangers. Buch was homegrown and developed here. CK same. Cuylle/Berard/Edstrom were all drafted and played in HFD,

Also the rangers have never had a problem drafting and developing defensemen. The "ruin" concerns were only about forwards.
Miller, Schneider, Jones, are all NHL defensemen in this short time frame.
When you draft a player, you draft for projections. Will this trait look good against NHL players.
Robertson was a good skating big defenseman. He's still a good skating defenseman, but he's taken zero growth in 4 years now. When you look good against WHL Guys, and then you look mid against AHL guys, you're not ready for the NHL. That's on him.

When you can count on your hands how many players we've developed in over 15 years its a massive fail for the organization. The players we drafted had skills that made us draft them and they weren't enhanced, that's on the org, in a cap world with the richest franchise in the league we should be leading the way in developing prospects. The first year's of a pro career dictate how the career will evolve. It's like a kid going to school, you go through school, make it to grade 6, you graduate and instead of going to grade 7-9, the school skips you to grade 10 and expects you to keep up without providing you with proper resources to bridge the gap. It affects the rest of your academic career going forward. I have no doubt that Andersson and Kravtsov, under another organization would have been nhl players, their strengths enhanced, and their weaknesses worked on. Robertson is the same, there is no reason at all he isn't hitting expectations. When Gallant told us " the nhl isn't a development league" and at the same time we were one of the youngest teams in the league, understand what that means, it means, if you haven't developed before you get here, it's not our problem.

 

[Clark Kellogg]

Anderson has barely played in the NHL. There was a question of "did we make him play hurt" at one point. But that hasn't been raised at all, and the NHLPA would've thrown a massive fit if there'd been any evidence of it.
Kratsov bounced repeatedly to Russia, and never took offseason training seriously.
He had a look in Vancouver and was exactly the same guy here.
Kakko looks about the same in Seattle - a defensively strong middle 6 guy. Likely looks better there longer term because he's playing with a bit more speed on his line.
Laf looks like a long term piece for us. I think his down season is simply the absolute lack of puck possession. He's shown flashes, he's still got the hands, he's still shooting. But no one on this team is playing with pace right now and panarin is blowing the zone 4 seconds before anyone gets the puck. Kinda hard to score if you don't play defense and get pinned.

Kratsov and anderson btw were Bad scouting - that scout is no longer with the team.
Anderson wasn't a good enough skater. Kratsov didnt have the work ethic (the reports were he came from a very well off family in russia, and so didnt need hockey in the US).

You cant say we ruin players and not mention that - buch, mika, ck, cuylle, berard, are all NHL Players in the exact same organization...
Mika took his big massive step with the rangers. Buch was homegrown and developed here. CK same. Cuylle/Berard/Edstrom were all drafted and played in HFD,

Also the rangers have never had a problem drafting and developing defensemen. The "ruin" concerns were only about forwards.
Miller, Schneider, Jones, are all NHL defensemen in this short time frame.
When you draft a player, you draft for projections. Will this trait look good against NHL players.
Robertson was a good skating big defenseman. He's still a good skating defenseman, but he's taken zero growth in 4 years now. When you look good against WHL Guys, and then you look mid against AHL guys, you're not ready for the NHL. That's on him.

Went back 16 years. All the NHL players(20) that the NY Rangers have drafted that have played a minimum of 40 NHL regular games:


Kreider JT Miller Fast

Cuylle Nieves Buchnevich

Lafreniere Chytil Duclair

Edstrom Barron Kakko


Skjei McIlrath

Miller Schneider

Graves Lundqvist

Jones

Shesterkin

Stop at 16 years because Kreider is still playing. Before that all others are out of the league.

 

[Clark Kellogg]

When you can count on your hands how many players we've developed in over 15 years its a massive fail for the organization. The players we drafted had skills that made us draft them and they weren't enhanced, that's on the org, in a cap world with the richest franchise in the league we should be leading the way in developing prospects. The first year's of a pro career dictate how the career will evolve. It's like a kid going to school, you go through school, make it to grade 6, you graduate and instead of going to grade 7-9, the school skips you to grade 10 and expects you to keep up without providing you with proper resources to bridge the gap. It affects the rest of your academic career going forward. I have no doubt that Andersson and Kravtsov, under another organization would have been nhl players, their strengths enhanced, and their weaknesses worked on. Robertson is the same, there is no reason at all he isn't hitting expectations. When Gallant told us " the nhl isn't a development league" and at the same time we were one of the youngest teams in the league, understand what that means, it means, if you haven't developed before you get here, it's not our problem.

I remember when Gallant said that. It was at the end of training camp to start his second season. When asked by a reporter if they’d be developing players, he replied that they wouldn’t be developing players this season.
Pathetic!

 

[RangerBoy]

Some of the teams in the lower half of the east are really playing good hockey. Montreal has won 4 out of their last 5 games. All road games. Beat Florida, TB, Vegas and Colorado. The Habs lost to Chicago. Detroit has won four straight games since firing their coach, Columbus is coming on. They have those two Russian kids. Werenski is healthy and playing great hockey. Johnson. Sillinger. The Rangers haven't played Columbus yet.

 

[RangerBoy]

Which teams would want Panarin? He seems like a tough fit for some of these teams. The Kings play with so much defensive structure. Panarin can't play that way. The Avs were interested in signing him in 2019. They offered him a shorter term contract. I was watching the Habs-Avs last night. Colorado would fit for Panarin. They don't play the lock it down and worry about offense. A two for one. Lehkonen and Manson(Silverfish's favorite player) for Panarin. Lehkonen and Manson have 12 team NTC's. Lehkonen has two more seasons left at $4.5M and Manson has one more season at $4.5M. Panarin has one more season at $11,642,857. The Avs would be taking on $2,642,857. Maybe the Avs send back Drouin's $2.5M for this season to make the money work if necessary. The Rangers waive Drouin and tell him he doesn't fit in their plans. Panarin would probably waive for Colorado. Lehkonen is a really good player signed at a very good number. The Rangers were interested in him in 2022. Maybe the Avs throw in the Rangers 2nd round pick in 2025 from Utah. Dallas likes to lock it down. They have given up the fewest goals in the league. Dallas and LA have given less than 100 goals. The Avs are the best fit for Panarin. He would probably go there. It could create cap issues for next season with Rantanen looking for the bag. MacKinnon. Rantanen. Panarin. Makar. Lehkonen can play anywhere in the top 9 and Manson fills a spot on RD when Borgen gets traded. The Rangers could always flip Manson in the summer.

 

[NYRFANMANI]

Zibs was fine yesterday.

 

[NYR Viper]

Which teams would want Panarin? He seems like a tough fit for some of these teams. The Kings play with so much defensive structure. Panarin can't play that way. The Avs were interested in signing him in 2019. They offered him a shorter term contract. I was watching the Habs-Avs last night. Colorado would fit for Panarin. They don't play the lock it down and worry about offense. A two for one. Lehkonen and Manson(Silverfish's favorite player) for Panarin. Lehkonen and Manson have 12 team NTC's. Lehkonen has two more seasons left at $4.5M and Manson has one more season at $4.5M. Panarin has one more season at $11,642,857. The Avs would be taking on $2,642,857. Maybe the Avs send back Drouin's $2.5M for this season to make the money work if necessary. The Rangers waive Drouin and tell him he doesn't fit in their plans. Panarin would probably waive for Colorado. Lehkonen is a really good player signed at a very good number. The Rangers were interested in him in 2022. Maybe the Avs throw in the Rangers 2nd round pick in 2025 from Utah. Dallas likes to lock it down. They have given up the fewest goals in the league. Dallas and LA have given less than 100 goals. The Avs are the best fit for Panarin. He would probably go there. It could create cap issues for next season with Rantanen looking for the bag. MacKinnon. Rantanen. Panarin. Makar. Lehkonen can play anywhere in the top 9 and Manson fills a spot on RD when Borgen gets traded. The Rangers could always flip Manson in the summer.

I think Dallas is the fit for Panarin. If Seguin is out until the playoffs, they have the cap space. I also think they realize that they will need more offense to get by Edmonton

 

[alkurtz]

Look, I agree that Drury has done a terrible job and one way or another, is largely to blame for this mess. If he were fired today...there would be no tears shed from me.

But, you better believe he is trying to do something, everything, to improve this team. It is his job and reputation on the line too.

But, contrary to what many here think, it is just not that easy. It is not easy at all.

Other teams scout extensively and see what we all see. Whether they don't want any Ranger players, are leary of what is happening in NY, or like sharks in the water, are waiting for the Rangers to get desperate, none of us know. None of us know whether other GMs will only trade their underachievers, malcontents, or bad contracts in exchange for ours.

As much as he might want to, and as easy as many posters here, make it sound, it's just not that easy.

Drury is also hampered by contract terms, whether no trades, no movements, contract length, and contract dollars. That is just reality.

We can banter about endless ways to trade our guys, get rid of bad contracts, it is just not that simple.

Other teams have turned things around quickly and though it is more likely than not that it is going to take a few years to come out of this fiasco. As for the poster who said he is too old to live through another "retool," heck, I'm 77 and more than willing to go through it.

But again, as much as we might rant and rage, "Do this, do that," it's just not that simple or easy.

 

[Kocur Dill]

Did the picks not pan out or did we ruin them? One or two high level picks failing is a coincidence but the amount of prospects that were highly thought of that failed here has to be more than any other team. Watching the world juniors, Kakko and Lafreniere were top players in that tourney much like Perrault and Leonard are. Andersson was the captain of Sweden, Kravtsov was a young star playing against men in the khl. All these players have one thing in common, they never came close to their potential. I mentioned it before but Robertson was considered a guaranteed nhl dman at one point, one of the most highly thought of D in the WHL. WHAT HAPPENED TO ALL THESE GUYS? The only position we develop is goalies, and that's because we have the best goalie coach. Get better staff

Some of it falls on the player too.

Ice time is important, but so is being a student of the game and continuing to study your opponents and learn from them not just your coaches. Why are they besting me? What can I do to counter it? Hand rotation, should blocking, balance, conditioning, burst and twitch training. Having the self driven *need* to be better than the guy chasing *your* puck.

At the NHL level I have to imagine the Head Coaches have so much on their plate and so little time between games that they concentrate on x's and o's and delegate skills to staff. So the next question in that thought tree is, are the staff skilled enough? Were they heady players in their day? And, is the prospect/draftee willing to work with them, ask questions, and self learn and motivate to come back and ask more questions if they arent figuring it out themselves? Or, are they self sabotaging know-it-alls or worse, timid and introverted?

If anything, NYR needs to get better at mental evaluation too. Thats why ive mentioned Brian Burke previously. Some of the stories he tells, his staff and drafted or undrafted players have told is some 3d chess aptitude hurdling.