Speculation: Roster Building Thread : Part XV (Light em up!)

[kovazub94]

HFDocs trying to retroactively ruin my Christmas.

All it takes ?

 

[Mike in Houston]

My understanding is that Henrik was one of the hardest working players in the game, that and his HOF body of work buys some attitude latitude.

Same can be said about Krieder but I think the nostalgic feelings currency is running out if he’s a problem in the room today.

I don't speculate on such things regarding any player. I'll leave that up to others.

 

[McRanger92]

Hank & Brian Leetch are franchise icons. Goodrow was owed NOTHING. We overpaid him to sign here & play on the 4th line because he was along for the ride on 2 Cup winners.

I'm not sure what you're actually advocating here? Players move in sports ALL the time. The lower on the food chain you are, the more it happens.

If the Rangers bought out Goodrow like he wanted them too. He'd have 10 goals playing for Tampa bay on the league minimum right now.

 

[NikC]

I mean if you watch the games, this team is playing like shit. This isn’t treating players badly. Some of these guys are total liabilities and not playing to their contracts. Players get traded all the time. It’s part of the deal. If any of these guys were remotely playing to their contracts they wouldn’t have to worry about getting shipped out.

the team is playing bad now....

i'm talking about the context of these moves coming off a president's trophy season and a trip to the ECF... It affected morale of THIS version of the Rangers...

Team probably figures they'll get another crack it together... blindsided them.

The Goodrow move was douchey... the Trouba situation should have not been handled like this.

I'm not contesting what was done... just the way it was done.

I can't give Drury or anyone in the organization the benefit of the doubt anymore about anything.

 

[bernmeister]

Fox is not playing like a HOF this season imo. Whether that is due to his knee injury I can not say. If he bounces back maybe the HOF will be in the discussion but at this point he really needs to get back to playing at an all star level never mind at a HOF level. Now to be fair a knee injury is no joke and sometimes take 1-2 years for a guy to really bounce back. In the old days some guys were never able to regain 100% speed after knee injuries.

sell high while we can while protection not yet kicked in

 

[NickyFotiu]

So immediately we go straight to the "But he hasn't scored." So you do think over the offseason suddenly he became one of the worst shooters in the league?

And why does it matter? Here is how many goals, per 82 games played, Fox has been on the ice for at 5v5 the last five years starting with the oldest.

1. 64
2. 65
3. 69
4. 64
5. 63

I'm seeing some extreme consistency here and I don't see why it makes any difference if he is the one scoring the goals or if he is the one setting up the goals. The fact that he has been on the ice for almost the same amount this year despite having 0 goals on 34 shots is an indicator that his process has actually been even more effective this year since in reality we should expect him to score on about 6-7% of his shots.

With all due respect I'm not sure what you are getting at. Do you feel Fox would be the same exact player whether he scores 0 goals or scores 17 goals?

I'm not a big stat guy but I felt my question to you was a relevant question. You posted multiple stats that Fox had "career best years" in. If you believe in those stats so much do you also believe that this has been Fox's best career year?

 

[NickyFotiu]

Seeing something on the ice =/= understanding or having any ability to analyze what you see. A 4 year old and Wayne Gretzky see the same ice. The difference is Wayne Gretzky understands things the 4 year old doesn't. And things a lot of posters on here don't either, by the look of it.

Do you believe a team should have scouts who watch players?

 

[Boris Zubov]

the team is playing bad now....

i'm talking about the context of these moves coming off a president's trophy season and a trip to the ECF... It affected morale of THIS version of the Rangers...

Team probably figures they'll get another crack it together... blindsided them.

The Goodrow move was douchey... the Trouba situation should have not been handled like this.

I'm not contesting what was done... just the way it was done.

I can't give Drury or anyone in the organization the benefit of the doubt anymore about anything.

This league has a restrictive hard cap that has barely moved at all in 5 years. Drury's hands were basically tied with all the NMCs, partly his own fault. As fans, we bitch all the time that as an organization they don't do all the things within their control to improve the team.

I'm not a Drury guy, but finally our GM takes an unorthodox approach to improve the team by dumping overpaid dead weight without attaching assets, nor retaining money & the fans are up in arms because we have a bunch of whiny spoiled brats that rule the locker room. I don't get it.

 

[GAGLine]

i blame them both.. Igor for overvaluing his importance to this team.. and Drury for overpaying the goalie position

not sure what the bolded even means. Dolan gave Drury a mandate to win... rangers were getting beaten to a pulp .. thats why Goodrow was signed. Did we have a crystal ball to see that Trouba wouldn't live up to his contract/performance-wise?

One year after sending the letter, we gave Panarin 11.6 mil and Trouba 8 mil. Rebuilding teams don't spend that kind of money to add players.

Those moves were certainly part of the reason we got back to the playoffs so quickly, but they are also part of the reason we are in the situation we are now. More than anything, it just demonstrates this organization's lack of patience.

 

[UnSandvich]

Do you believe a team should have scouts who watch players?

Not sure i understand what you're trying to imply here

 

[kovazub94]

i think we all agree with him to a point... but treating people in an undignified way is bad for business... some businesses will always operate like this, treating people like S*it... they deserve each other.


the rangers are doing so many things wrong right now it's hard to keep track.


yeah i get it.. thx. but when you're building a team.. chemistry, morale, leadership... all of the virtues you teach and cultivate, shouldn't come at the expense of cap dumps to overpay a goalie

Goodrow and Trouba (and Kakko and Lindgren to come) shouldn’t be upset as a cap dump moves. These are clearly distinguishable situations from for example Buchnevich trade where at least a third of the reasoning was cap related - and I leave it at that because I don’t want Buchnevich to side track it - not the point.

In the current situation the quality sacrificed is nowhere near the quality expected from about $20m of cap. If signing Shesterkin was on the other side of a decision tree - there’s no question what’s the right call is.

 

[NickyFotiu]

sell high while we can while protection not yet kicked in

I do not think Fox's trade value is anywhere near as high as this board may believe at this point in time. Trade aside we should do what we can to help Fox get to the level that some believe he is playing at this season imo. That goes for multiple players not just Fox. They are not playing at the highest level in their careers. We need to figure out what we can do to get them back to where they are closer to their best.

 

[SA16]

With all due respect I'm not sure what you are getting at. Do you feel Fox would be the same exact player whether he scores 0 goals or scores 17 goals?

I'm not a big stat guy but I felt my question to you was a relevant question. You posted multiple stats that Fox had "career best years" in. If you believe in those stats so much do you also believe that this has been Fox's best career year?

If he takes the exact same shots, yes.

Considering the data that accounts for that such as his individual expected goals, and shot speeds, haven't changed, I think it's safe to say he suddenly did not forget how to shoot or get into scoring position.

 

[NickyFotiu]

Not sure i understand what you're trying to imply here

I ask because if watching players is not important then why even have scouts? Why not just set up a computer program to download data from a website instead of scouts with eyes?

 

[UnSandvich]

I ask because if watching players is not important then why even have scouts? Why not just set up a computer program to download data from a website instead of scouts with eyes?

Please show me where I said watching players is not important. Cite your sources.

 

[kovazub94]

. It's the classic HF. The team has had a lot of issues but let's blame the best player(s) who haven't been the issue. That and the usual bias against older players, non-physical players, and slower skaters and Fox fits two of those categories.

This 100%

 

[NickyFotiu]

If he takes the exact same shots, yes.

Considering the data that accounts for that such as his individual expected goals, and shot speeds, haven't changed, I think it's safe to say he suddenly did not forget how to shoot or get into scoring position.

Is that your bottom line? The amount of shots. Not the quality of shots or results from them?

You still did not answer my question. Is Fox having one of his best career years based on your belief in the stats you quoted?

 

[SA16]

I ask because if watching players is not important then why even have scouts? Why not just set up a computer program to download data from a website instead of scouts with eyes?

You need scouts to help identify other teams strategies and how it can be exploited. You also need scouts to look at prospects as there is much less data available on them.

If you're asking if you need a scout to view a potential trade acquisition I would say those are nearly entirely useless. You have hundreds of games on video, and thousands of data points, on most players what are you going to learn by watching him for a few games in person that you couldn't have learned otherwise? A quick check just to make sure a player seems healthy (which you can still just get on video from his last game)?

 

[NickyFotiu]

Please show me where I said watching players is not important. Cite your sources.

I did not say you said anything. I'm asking you a question. Is it important for scouts to watch players play via their eyes?

 

[SA16]

Is that your bottom line? The amount of shots. Not the quality of shots or results from them?

You still did not answer my question. Is Fox having one of his best career years based on your belief in the stats you quoted?

Yes, he is. Maybe the most impressive of all considering he has put up those results on a team that has performed significantly worse than his other teams.

And, as I told you, his individual expected goals and shot speeds are all right in line with the rest of his career. If he was taking worse shots, or he was no longer shooting as hard, that would be reflected in the numbers.

 

[JimmyG89]

With all due respect I'm not sure what you are getting at. Do you feel Fox would be the same exact player whether he scores 0 goals or scores 17 goals?

I'm not a big stat guy but I felt my question to you was a relevant question. You posted multiple stats that Fox had "career best years" in. If you believe in those stats so much do you also believe that this has been Fox's best career year?

The one thing that I've noticed more than most years is that he is giving the puck away more than usual and this has been a two year trend is that he is more prone to taking penalties, and some of those penalties are bad ones, like blatantly obvious calls.

Outside of those things, he's been as good, if not better, than he has been in years past. He's not going to shoot 0% at 5v5 all season. He doesn't have a history of it. Also, his primary assist rates are up, so he is directly setting guys to score goals at a higher rate. And in spite of having no 5v5 goals, his P/60 is still similar to the last two years.

This is also being done when just about everyone he normally plays with is having down or terrible years and the PP which usually wakes up and is 25% is down.

The last issue this team has is Adam Fox. Now, in 4-5 years time when he likely slows down skating wise, it may be an issue, but his skating has not improved or gotten worse.

 

[bernmeister]

I do not think Fox's trade value is anywhere near as high as this board may believe at this point in time. Trade aside we should do what we can to help Fox get to the level that some believe he is playing at this season imo. That goes for multiple players not just Fox. They are not playing at the highest level in their careers. We need to figure out what we can do to get them back to where they are closer to their best.

I would not be close minded to seeing what returns we can get now --- but not very soon, regardless of his health/production goes up/down

 

[kovazub94]

With all due respect I'm not sure what you are getting at. Do you feel Fox would be the same exact player whether he scores 0 goals or scores 17 goals?

He could be the same or could be not. That’s why more advance stats come into play. SA16 has his. I like high danger chances based stats. Point is Fox could be the same player (or substantially close to) whether there’s 0 goals or 17.

 

[NickyFotiu]

You need scouts to help identify other teams strategies and how it can be exploited. You also need scouts to look at prospects as there is much less data available on them.

If you're asking if you need a scout to view a potential trade acquisition I would say those are nearly entirely useless. You have hundreds of games on video, and thousands of data points, on most players what are you going to learn by watching him for a few games in person that you couldn't have learned otherwise?

Watching a player in person or watching on video is still watching with eyes. Now in person will give you a different view than video but they are both watching with your eyes. So do you believe it is important for a scout to watch a player with his eyes (in person or on video)?

I would not be close minded to seeing what returns we can get now --- but not very soon, regardless of his health/production goes up/down

I do not think any Ranger is untouchable but they would need a very strong offer.

 

[bernmeister]

The one thing that I've noticed more than most years is that he is giving the puck away more than usual and this has been a two year trend is that he is more prone to taking penalties, and some of those penalties are bad ones, like blatantly obvious calls.

Outside of those things, he's been as good, if not better, than he has been in years past. He's not going to shoot 0% at 5v5 all season. He doesn't have a history of it. Also, his primary assist rates are up, so he is directly setting guys to score goals at a higher rate. And in spite of having no 5v5 goals, his P/60 is still similar to the last two years.

This is also being done when just about everyone he normally plays with is having down or terrible years and the PP which usually wakes up and is 25% is down.

The last issue this team has is Adam Fox. Now, in 4-5 years time when he likely slows down skating wise, it may be an issue, but his skating has not improved or gotten worse.

eye test on da bold says otherwise
it is visible NOW
and even were that not the case, we can't deal him later
IT'S NOW OR NEVER

Watching a player in person or watching on video is still watching with eyes. Now in person will give you a different view than video but they are both watching with your eyes. So do you believe it is important for a scout to watch a player with his eyes (in person or on video)?



I do not think any Ranger is untouchable but they would need a very strong offer.

Agree
and that is why we should not ignore signs market is currently strong, I believe