Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XL

[Thirty One]

Every fanbase thinks that their UFAs are the worst, that their players get hurt the most, that the refs hate them the most etc.

Also every team gets lit up by backup goalies and has either the worst or the best coach.

 

[SA16]

Also every team gets lit up by backup goalies and has either the worst or the best coach.

Not sure how I missed those. Very true.

But the Rangers NEVER score on backup goalies and AV is the worst coach in the league.

 

[Beacon]

What is the relevance of guys signed before there was a salary cap?

If anything it makes things worse now. Before the cap, the idea was that if we pay someone useless, Dolan loses money, but that's it. Dolan will pay next year again. We spent twice as much on salaries as the average NHL franchise. If your kid does well, you wont have to trade him due to the cap.

You could do so much more then. Why limit yourself to 1-2 key UFAs at key times. Just go wild.

In early 1995, we traded a first for Verbeek, a star first liner. A few months later, we signed second liner Ray Ferraro and second pair D Bruce Driver. A few weeks later, we traded young Nedved and Zubov for veterans Robitaille and Ulf. We added grinders Berg and Momesso, and rookies Sundstrom and Langdon. That kind of all-out push is impossible today. But it resulted in 1 extra playoff win over the previous season. One.

If we couldn't buy our way out of misery with an unlimited budget, how can we do it today in a cap era?

 

[SA16]

If anything it makes things worse now. Before the cap, the idea was that if we pay someone useless, Dolan loses money, but that's it. Dolan will pay next year again. We spent twice as much on salaries as the average NHL franchise. If your kid does well, you wont have to trade him due to the cap.

You could do so much more then. Why limit yourself to 1-2 key UFAs at key times. Just go wild.

In early 1995, we traded a first for Verbeek, a star first liner. A few months later, we signed second liner Ray Ferraro and second pair D Bruce Driver. A few weeks later, we traded young Nedved and Zubov for veterans Robitaille and Ulf. We added grinders Berg and Momesso, and rookies Sundstrom and Langdon. That kind of all-out push is impossible today. But it resulted in 1 extra playoff win over the previous season. One.

If we couldn't buy our way out of misery with an unlimited budget, how can we do it today in a cap era?

The 1978-79 Rangers brought in players like Anders Hedberg, Ulf Nilsson, and Pierre Plante which helped them reach the Stanley Cup Final. It's not always bad to bring in players from outside.

 

[Beacon]

A little different when you getting those names while KEEPING the youth you do have

The Rangers acquired Gretzky, Fleury, Kamensky, Lefebvre, Skrudland, Keane, Gomez, Drury, etc for nothing. Lindros came here for spare parts. Bure for spare parts and a first. I guess that's something, but a team doesn't collapse because it lost a first. Do you think the Jets will collapse because of the Hayes trade? Jagr came for Carter, nothing huge.

So we really didn't give up a ton for our mercenaries,other than trading away 1 first and Norstrom. Except we never dipped low enough to grab a star with a top-2 pick

 

[Tawnos]

Also every team gets lit up by backup goalies and has either the worst or the best coach.

Also every team has every rookie score their first goal against them or has players break scoreless streaks against them.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

The cap was the best thing to ever happen to this franchise. Otherwise every ufa would be on this team with no room for the kids. It basically made this team have to be smart instead of throwing money around trying to plug holes.

 

[Tawnos]

The cap was the best thing to ever happen to this franchise. Otherwise every ufa would be on this team with no room for the kids. It basically made this team have to be smart instead of throwing money around trying to plug holes.

The decision to rebuild came pre-Cap in 2004, though maybe the writing was on the wall there. The plan for the 04-05 season was to be historically bad. The plan for the 05-06 team was to be near the bottom of the league. Lundqvist and the resurgent-Jagr made them change their plans. The salary cap didn’t stop them from signing Drury, Gomez, Redden, Shanahan, Naslund, Gaborik, or Richards. It didn’t force them to hold onto picks, prospects and young players, as they proved between 2012 and 2017. It’s often overlooked that, while they did go after UFAs in the late-00s, they also only traded a single pick in the 2nd round or earlier (a 2nd for Antropov) and didn’t trade a single young player until they showed they weren’t going to have what it takes to be a solid NHLer (like Prucha). Meanwhile, they developed the core of what would be a contender for a few years. It took 7 years for that core to be competitive on its own, which isn’t really all that unreasonable for a rebuild where the team is starting from a barren system and trying to compete all the while.

On a related note, you could make the argument that the 04 lockout was the worst thing to happen to the Rangers in three ways. First, it meant they never got to finish last to draft Crosby. Second, they never got a season without Lundqvist boosting them to mediocrity all on his own. Third, Jagr never would’ve gone to Siberia for a year where he reset his head and came back like the player he was before Washington.

 

[NYR Viper]

I’d still kick the tires on Panarin but not above the $9.5m given to Stone. If he wants more, he can go elsewhere. That’s not a bad cap hit for a top-line winger in his prime. Even as he ages with the cap increasing that’s not a horrible cap hit.

Trade Kreider. Arizona 1st + Lawson Crouse + ARI 3rd ‘20(2nd if Arizona makes the playoffs)

Trade Vesey. 3rd ‘19 + 3rd ‘20

Trade Namestnikov. 3rd ‘19 + 3rd ‘20

Trade Smith. Zack Smith + Mike Condon for Smith + Beleskey

 

[FIRE DRURY]

To me Panarin is a difference maker.

He’s a difference maker now as a 27 year old with a 6m cap hit.

Will he remain one as a 28~34 year old at a massively larger cap hit...?

That’s my issue with signing Breadman. Under different circumstances I’d consider it.. But not now.

 

[FIRE DRURY]

The decision to rebuild came pre-Cap in 2004, though maybe the writing was on the wall there. The plan for the 04-05 season was to be historically bad. The plan for the 05-06 team was to be near the bottom of the league. Lundqvist and the resurgent-Jagr made them change their plans. The salary cap didn’t stop them from signing Drury, Gomez, Redden, Shanahan, Naslund, Gaborik, or Richards. It didn’t force them to hold onto picks, prospects and young players, as they proved between 2012 and 2017. It’s often overlooked that, while they did go after UFAs in the late-00s, they also only traded a single pick in the 2nd round or earlier (a 2nd for Antropov) and didn’t trade a single young player until they showed they weren’t going to have what it takes to be a solid NHLer (like Prucha). Meanwhile, they developed the core of what would be a contender for a few years. It took 7 years for that core to be competitive on its own, which isn’t really all that unreasonable for a rebuild where the team is starting from a barren system and trying to compete all the while.

On a related note, you could make the argument that the 04 lockout was the worst thing to happen to the Rangers in three ways. First, it meant they never got to finish last to draft Crosby. Second, they never got a season without Lundqvist boosting them to mediocrity all on his own. Third, Jagr never would’ve gone to Siberia for a year where he reset his head and came back like the player he was before Washington.

Spot on.

But let’s not neglect what an impact Renney had as well. You can make an argument that he’s the one that really pioneered the whole rebuild.

You look at those teams in the mid 2000’s and it’s easy to praise guys like Nylander, Jagr, and Straka...

But when you look at how much Renney got out of plugs like Orts, Betts, and dmen like Rozy and Malik... I feel like you just have to tip your hat to him.

That team felt like a “team”. They were schooled defensively. And they played 60 minutes of hard hockey most nights.

Renney wasn’t the coach that would have brought us a Cup.. But he was an integral part of our rebuild.

I kind is see some Quinn in him....

 

[Vitto79]

So if they can’t get the deal they want from Kreider to resign or can’t get enough for him at the draft he likely plays it out till the deadline

Current depth in no order assuming no moves and the obvious 2nd pick

Kreider , Zib , Kakko
Kratsov , Strome , Buch
Chytil , Howden , Lemieux
Vesey , Andersson , Fast
Nieves , Names
Others are AHL bodies likely

Can’t really add a vet ufa ? If anything need to trade or start kids in the AHL

 

[n8]

So if they can’t get the deal they want from Kreider to resign or can’t get enough for him at the draft he likely plays it out till the deadline

Current depth in no order assuming no moves and the obvious 2nd pick

Kreider , Zib , Kakko
Kratsov , Strome , Buch
Chytil , Howden , Lemieux
Vesey , Andersson , Fast
Nieves , Names
Others are AHL bodies likely

Can’t really add a vet ufa ? If anything need to trade or start kids in the AHL

After the first line, it's more like
Chytil, Strome, Buch
Lemieux, Howden, Kravtsov
since Lemieux is LW and Kravtsov is RW
We can add a UFA but you are correct that we would need to make a trade to facilitate it or lose guys on waivers or bury them in Hartford. Vesey, Names, and Nieves/Andersson (the latter if part of a bigger trade), or even Strome if we think we can sell high on him and want to commit to playing Andersson more.

 

[Ola]

Spot on.

But let’s not neglect what an impact Renney had as well. You can make an argument that he’s the one that really pioneered the whole rebuild.

You look at those teams in the mid 2000’s and it’s easy to praise guys like Nylander, Jagr, and Straka...

But when you look at how much Renney got out of plugs like Orts, Betts, and dmen like Rozy and Malik... I feel like you just have to tip your hat to him.

That team felt like a “team”. They were schooled defensively. And they played 60 minutes of hard hockey most nights.

Renney wasn’t the coach that would have brought us a Cup.. But he was an integral part of our rebuild.

I kind is see some Quinn in him....

Yeah, he left with a horrible reputation, but I do think that at the bottom line he has done more for the organization than most. Gorton is about to join that club.

Never felt that way about Torts. We had no team game when he left. Marc Staal and Dan Girardi had not led an organized break out in 3.5 years and moved the puck horridly poor when Torts walked out the door. We had the same type of grit and willingness to block shots when Renney was here, Tom wasn’t just as macho in post game interviews. Not that Torts didn’t do anything good, but he just didn’t leave a team in a good shape at all.

 

[pld459666]

The Rangers acquired Gretzky, Fleury, Kamensky, Lefebvre, Skrudland, Keane, Gomez, Drury, etc for nothing. Lindros came here for spare parts. Bure for spare parts and a first. I guess that's something, but a team doesn't collapse because it lost a first. Do you think the Jets will collapse because of the Hayes trade? Jagr came for Carter, nothing huge.

So we really didn't give up a ton for our mercenaries,other than trading away 1 first and Norstrom. Except we never dipped low enough to grab a star with a top-2 pick

Fair point.

Had we acquired close to 10 1st rounders and multiple 2nd rounders prior to the acquisition of either player mentioned in your post?

 

[Vitto79]

I’d still kick the tires on Panarin but not above the $9.5m given to Stone. If he wants more, he can go elsewhere. That’s not a bad cap hit for a top-line winger in his prime. Even as he ages with the cap increasing that’s not a horrible cap hit.

Trade Kreider. Arizona 1st + Lawson Crouse + ARI 3rd ‘20(2nd if Arizona makes the playoffs)

Trade Vesey. 3rd ‘19 + 3rd ‘20

Trade Namestnikov. 3rd ‘19 + 3rd ‘20

Trade Smith. Zack Smith + Mike Condon for Smith + Beleskey

I always think guys will get dealt for picks at the draft but rarely happens ... how many last year for example actually at the draft or just before ?

 

[pld459666]

He’s a difference maker now as a 27 year old with a 6m cap hit.

Will he remain one as a 28~34 year old at a massively larger cap hit...?

That’s my issue with signing Breadman. Under different circumstances I’d consider it.. But not now.

I believe he will be.

At his age, he's got just four full NHL seasons of milage on his legs.

I think he's going to be one of those players that produces 70-80+ points for the next 6 years.

But, that's just my opinion

 

[ZiGOODejad]

With all this Panarin talk leading up to his UFA we can kick the tires on him but Imo I feel he’s going to Florida

 

[SML2]

I have embraced this theory of "the vacuum" for years now.

This is a young team. Only 4 guys over 30 and none have long term futures here. This is where the vaccuum come in.

Let the room establish it's own hierarchy. Let the leaders emerge. The coach will preach a philosophy and certain players will carry it out, others won't. The main ingredient, the one thing that must exist for a young player to make that jump from prospect to player to star, is opportunity. You want a player to be a star, there has to be the chance for him. That means not blocking him with established talent. Think of the way Pionk just keeps getting put out there even though he makes mistakes. Some of you may not like that. But what you have is a ton of footage, of teachable moments to show that kid and he hopefully learns from his mistakes and gets better. That's what these kids need. The chance to go out, get prime ice time, go through their growing pains and know that if they mess up, it's part of it all. It's not getting them traded or sent to Hartford until next season. Long story short, I don't think we are ready for a Panarin type player. I want to see what we have first. If the leadership that emerges in the room is not positive, that's different. You bring in a personality that changes the course. But right now I hope they go dark on free agency day and don't sign anyone.

 

[SML2]

Yeah, he left with a horrible reputation, but I do think that at the bottom line he has done more for the organization than most. Gorton is about to join that club.

Never felt that way about Torts. We had no team game when he left. Marc Staal and Dan Girardi had not led an organized break out in 3.5 years and moved the puck horridly poor when Torts walked out the door. We had the same type of grit and willingness to block shots when Renney was here, Tom wasn’t just as macho in post game interviews. Not that Torts didn’t do anything good, but he just didn’t leave a team in a good shape at all.

 

[SML2]

I hate Torts, but that game vs the Devils where he sent Bickel, Rupp, and Prust out for the opening face off and all three threw down was arguably the proudest moment in my life as a Ranger fan outside of 1994. After 30 years of watching the Rangers turn the other cheek, it was a sight to see. An awesome sight at that. That's the Only thing I will give the guy credit for.

 

[Vitto79]

Staal had a no trade that expired now right ?

If so would he waive or don’t bother and Just ride the next two years out ?

Same goes w Smith and Shatty....At the end of their contracts they should be moveable for sure

Ideally get Fox to go w DeAngelo in Rd ... is Lundqvist gonna come over this year or no ?

Skjei on LD then does Hajek and Lindgren get in more ? .... same question Miller and Rykov signing this year ?

Kinda see Pionk as the eventual casualty

 

[Lindberg Cheese]

The Rangers acquired Gretzky, Fleury, Kamensky, Lefebvre, Skrudland, Keane, Gomez, Drury, etc for nothing. Lindros came here for spare parts. Bure for spare parts and a first. I guess that's something, but a team doesn't collapse because it lost a first. Do you think the Jets will collapse because of the Hayes trade? Jagr came for Carter, nothing huge.

So we really didn't give up a ton for our mercenaries,other than trading away 1 first and Norstrom. Except we never dipped low enough to grab a star with a top-2 pick

Ironically, when we were out purchasing teams, it was the best stretch for our AHL affiliate in Bing.

 

[True Blue]

But let’s not neglect what an impact Renney had as well. You can make an argument that he’s the one that really pioneered the whole rebuild.

Very underrated in the turnaround that started to emerge after the Dark Ages. He was the fist to bring back pride for this franchise. The Dark Ages Rangers were disgusting. I did not like him as a coach, at all, but have to respect what he started and what continues today.

That said, not like Quinn. Renney was ruled by Jagr and his discipline extended to the likes of a Betts or Ortmeyer. Quinn has showed that no one is above discipline.

 

[haohmaru]

Staal had a no trade that expired now right ?

If so would he waive or don’t bother and Just ride the next two years out ?

Same goes w Smith and Shatty....At the end of their contracts they should be moveable for sure

Ideally get Fox to go w DeAngelo in Rd ... is Lundqvist gonna come over this year or no ?

Skjei on LD then does Hajek and Lindgren get in more ? .... same question Miller and Rykov signing this year ?

Kinda see Pionk as the eventual casualty

Staal's NMC expires when the contract does. Two more years of that goodness.