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Speculation: Roster Building thread: Part XIX (Thanks, Sam)

DanielBrassard said:
The rebuild was going to fail because the rangers missed on so many picks. So we would have ended up in a similar position either way. But the problem is now we are stuck with so many bad contracts it’s going to be hard to rebuild appropriately again.
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If Lafreniere and Kakko are even average 1/2 ov picks its all different even with all the other misses. That's the tragedy.
 
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GoAwayPanarin said:
Um...

Weren't you pro Panarin?

THAT was abandoning the rebuild lol.
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Yes but I foolishly thought the team could sign him and have him be the one piece for the kids to lean on, and then, with a properly pulled off rebuild, he could be the elder veteran near the end of his contract like Marion Gaborik winning with the Kings.

I didn’t realize that signing him meant they were done bothering to acquire high end talent in the draft. I would go back and undo that if you asked me whether it was smart or not because they looked at it as their signal that the rebuild was over whereas I saw it as an opportunity to shelter their most important assets in a rebuild and then exit the rebuild with an aging but effective veteran leader.

You could have done almost everything different than the Rangers did from that day forward and the team would be in a much better spot now and would have a 80 point Panarin still on hand.
 
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DanielBrassard said:
The rebuild was going to fail because the rangers missed on so many picks. So we would have ended up in a similar position either way. But the problem is now we are stuck with so many bad contracts it’s going to be hard to rebuild appropriately again.
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They definitely started out on the wrong foot picking Andersson and Kravtsov over useful pieces who were available but in looking at the continuing underperformance of “can’t miss” pieces like Kakko and Lafreniere and the struggles even of the young defensemen who’ve “made it” in KAM and Schneider, there is no way that our development process or the pro systems we employ haven’t had a major hand in the busts of all these picks.

It’s on the team.

Chytil never progressed to where we thought he was gonna get either, and it wasn’t just injuries. And Othmann looks like a real barn burner, right? The team is doing something wrong. I think they stifle offensive creativity.
 
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Say if it came down to Cuylle or Lafréniere. Would you have dealt Lafréniere to sign Will Cuylle long term???
 
eco's bones said:
For me this season has been a f***ing disaster and I just want it over with.

My younger brother who was a Rangers fan died last month and though we didn't talk that often.....he was living out in Washington state......when we did we usually talked a bit about the Rangers. So I'm heading out later this month for his funeral service and the rest of me is like f*** this shit.....let the spring come and tune out sports for a while. I don't really care which team wins as long as it ain't another metro area team.
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My condolences
 
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eco's bones said:
For me this season has been a f***ing disaster and I just want it over with.

My younger brother who was a Rangers fan died last month and though we didn't talk that often.....he was living out in Washington state......when we did we usually talked a bit about the Rangers. So I'm heading out later this month for his funeral service and the rest of me is like f*** this shit.....let the spring come and tune out sports for a while. I don't really care which team wins as long as it ain't another metro area team.
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I'm so sorry for your loss. I have lost two brothers myself. It's hard, but you get through it. My thoughts are with you and your family.
 
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eco's bones said:
For me this season has been a f***ing disaster and I just want it over with.

My younger brother who was a Rangers fan died last month and though we didn't talk that often.....he was living out in Washington state......when we did we usually talked a bit about the Rangers. So I'm heading out later this month for his funeral service and the rest of me is like f*** this shit.....let the spring come and tune out sports for a while. I don't really care which team wins as long as it ain't another metro area team.
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Im really sorry to hear about your brother. 🙁
 
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Tragic number is 5.

Montreal is hosting Detroit tonight
Islanders are in Nashville
Columbus is hosting Ottawa
Buffalo is hosting Carolina
Pittsburgh is hosting Chicago. The Hawks won the first game of the home and home on Sunday
Anaheim won last night

Need the Rangers to keep losing and all of the teams around the Rangers to win games.

Flyers
at Islanders
at Hurricanes
at Panthers
TB

The Flyers have been off since Saturday when they lost to Montreal. The Flyers have been playing better since the coaching change. I was watching the Sportsnet feed of that game. Brad Shaw wants the Flyers to play spoilers.

The Islanders are a crazy team. Lose four straight games. Win four straight games. They would love to sink the Rangers playoff hopes.

Carolina is locked into the 2nd seed in the Metro. They want to play the right way heading into the playoffs.

Florida will be 3rd in the Atlantic or a WC. Ottawa is only two points behind them. The first WC will play either Toronto or TB. Florida has started resting some guys. They need to start winning some games here heading into the playoffs. It's hard to turn on the switch. Paul Maurice sat Sam Bennett and Sam Reinhart in the last game in Detroit. Brad Marchand hasn't found his fit. Matthew Tkachuk may be back for the playoffs. Sasha Barkov has missed a few games with an injury. He got hurt in the Montreal game last week. The Rangers game is the their second to last game of the season. TB is their last game of the season.

TB could be playing for first place in the Atlantic on the last night of the season. How much effort will the Rangers show in the last game of the season? They barely showed up when the games were important for them.

My friends were asking me why I want the Rangers to miss the playoffs. We need to see carnage. Dolan will lose his mind and fire everyone. The building was nearly empty with 10 minutes left in the third period. So many of these players need to go. Carnage. Embarrassment. Drop the bomb and deal with whatever is left.
 
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It's unlikely that either of Anaheim or Buffalo will pass us, but if all of Detroit, Columbus and the Islanders pass us, we'll have the 10th pick and a couple shots at a top 2 pick.

Detroit needs at least 1 point tonight to pass us. The Islanders need a win. Columbus will tie us on points with a win, but we still hold the tiebreaker.

I'm hoping Detroit beats Montreal tonight in regulation. Let the teams chasing Montreal believe they still have a chance so that they'll keep playing hard.
 
mas0764 said:
Yes but I foolishly thought the team could sign him and have him be the one piece for the kids to lean on, and then, with a properly pulled off rebuild, he could be the elder veteran near the end of his contract like Marion Gaborik winning with the Kings.

I didn’t realize that signing him meant they were done bothering to acquire high end talent in the draft. I would go back and undo that if you asked me whether it was smart or not because they looked at it as their signal that the rebuild was over whereas I saw it as an opportunity to shelter their most important assets in a rebuild and then exit the rebuild with an aging but effective veteran leader.

You could have done almost everything different than the Rangers did from that day forward and the team would be in a much better spot now and would have a 80 point Panarin still on hand.
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That was never going to be the deal with Panarin. That was a dumb ass signing by JG with hopes of speeding along a process that had barely even gotten started. That was the eject button on the entire rebuild. If you believe the Robertson+1st for Kreider rumor from the deadline in 2020, you can thank Panarin for nuking that idea when he pulled a lottery team up to one on the border of the playoffs.

If you want to shelter your youth, you overpay for 2-3 years for someone like what Panarin is now (or even a lesser player.) When you throw the contract that he actually got at any player you're basically saying you're going to try to build around him and thats exactly what they tried to do. If they passed on Panarin, they're dismantling and accumulating assets for at least another season and maybe even another 2 (they had the green light to do this too.)

It was so unnecessary and just the worst case of instant gratification that I can think of. Not Monday morning QB'ing this either, I've been against this since it was a possibility because I knew what the fall out would be.

He's actually aged better than I thought he would. It could have even worked had he been able to give them 90% of what he's done in the regular season in the playoffs but we know how thats gone.
 
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GoAwayPanarin said:
That was never going to be the deal with Panarin. That was a dumb ass signing by JG with hopes of speeding along a process that had barely even gotten started. That was the eject button on the entire rebuild. If you believe the Robertson+1st for Kreider rumor from the deadline in 2020, you can thank Panarin for nuking that idea when he pulled a lottery team up to one on the border of the playoffs.

If you want to shelter your youth, you overpay for 2-3 years for someone like what Panarin is now (or even a lesser player.) When you throw the contract that he actually got at any player you're basically saying you're going to try to build around him and thats exactly what they tried to do. If they passed on Panarin, they're dismantling and accumulating assets for at least another season and maybe even another 2 (they had the green light to do this too.)

It was so unnecessary and just the worst case of instant gratification that I can think of. Not Monday morning QB'ing this either, I've been against this since it was a possibility because I knew what the fall out would be.

He's actually aged better than I thought he would. It could have even worked had he been able to give them 90% of what he's done in the regular season in the playoffs but we know how thats gone.
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Couple the Panarin deal with the Trouba sign/trade when we already had 3 young RD (Fox, Tony D, Pionk) in the organization. I dont get the people who try to denounce the Drury era by saying Gorton was so much better. Looking at the full picture they both sucked, and were extension of each other in many ways. They believed in this core way too much. Time to move on from that whole regime imo.
 
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GAGLine said:
It's unlikely that either of Anaheim or Buffalo will pass us, but if all of Detroit, Columbus and the Islanders pass us, we'll have the 10th pick and a couple shots at a top 2 pick.

Detroit needs at least 1 point tonight to pass us. The Islanders need a win. Columbus will tie us on points with a win, but we still hold the tiebreaker.

I'm hoping Detroit beats Montreal tonight in regulation. Let the teams chasing Montreal believe they still have a chance so that they'll keep playing hard.
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So you're in the keep the current year 1st round pick?

It would make sense to me assuming that this was an aberration year and next year's team will be back to playoffs. But two things make me pause:

1. This year's draft class is reported to be on a weak side
2. Front office typically wants a certainty meaning - let's finish at 13 or better and eliminate uncertainty
3. There's no guarantee that next year's team will be better (albeit it's a reasonable take) including impact of something unexpected (injury bug that hits all the key (pun not intended) areas). I mean with 100% guarantee there's not a single person last summer who'd argue that the Rangers won't make playoffs
 
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The roster needs a change in mentality more than it needs a rebuild. The organization handcuffing prospects is still happening after all these years. I mean why keep playing guys like Trocheck and Kreider who are clearly compromised (not excusing them just pointing out that they are obviously playing hurt on top of shit), when you have Othmann and Perreault who have been the few guys moving their feet these last few games.

Lafreniere to me is pouting because of his usage. He could have held the screws to the organization coming off last season and a hot start to this year. he signs a below market, long term contract for a 1OA and still gets passed over for veterans who the entire team knows were called out by the GM. Cuylle was our best forward all season. Not a sniff of PP time. You think our young players are going balls to the wall for veterans who dont do the same for them? Look at Mika hiding from the scrum against the devils saturday. Thats not a new development. The vets are soft bitches, and the young players have either learned from them, or checked out.

And Im sorry but Panarin doesnt get a pat on the back for saying "we need to play the kids more" with 5 games left in a lost season. It's been reported multiple times that he didnt want to play with young guys like Chytil and Kakko early in his Rangers career. I hope he asks out and makes it easy for us to move him. kreider will be gone by hook or by crook. Mika should be the 4C until he waives his NMC. I would absolutely trade Trocheck in the right deal. I dont care that JT Miller is his buddy. JT can stay because we need C's and he can still produce (personally I think he is also hurt). The D is a disaster. K'Andre needs to go. Doesnt have the right mentality and the mistakes arent going away. he can hopefully get us a young NHL C, which the organization desperately needs.
 
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kovazub94 said:
So you're in the keep the current year 1st round pick?

It would make sense to me assuming that this was an aberration year and next year's team will be back to playoffs. But two things make me pause:

1. This year's draft class is reported to be on a weak side
2. Front office typically wants a certainty meaning - let's finish at 13 or better and eliminate uncertainty
3. There's no guarantee that next year's team will be better (albeit it's a reasonable take) including impact of something unexpected (injury bug that hits all the key (pun not intended) areas). I mean with 100% guarantee there's not a single person last summer who'd argue that the Rangers won't make playoffs
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I'm in the camp of making the pick the best it can possibly be.

If we get a top 2 pick, it's a no-brainer to keep the pick. If we get the 10th overall pick, it's probably better to keep the pick.

Next year's draft might end up being better, but that's somewhat of a false comparison. It assumes that pick 10 in 2026 will automatically be better than pick 10 in 2025. It doesn't account for the individual players who will be selected in those spots.

People say this draft is 13 players deep, but that assumes everyone agrees on who those top 13 players are, and it also assumes that those 13 players will get drafted in the top 13 picks.

What did people say about 2023? We took Perreault 23rd overall. He wasn't expected to last that long.

The one thing I know for sure is that Drury, if he's still here, is going to make moves with the intent of getting back into the playoffs. Maybe we don't make it, but I have a hard time believing we'll be worse than we are this year. The only way I can see us regretting not giving up this year's pick is if we win the lottery next year.
 
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GoAwayPanarin said:
That was never going to be the deal with Panarin. That was a dumb ass signing by JG with hopes of speeding along a process that had barely even gotten started. That was the eject button on the entire rebuild. If you believe the Robertson+1st for Kreider rumor from the deadline in 2020, you can thank Panarin for nuking that idea when he pulled a lottery team up to one on the border of the playoffs.

If you want to shelter your youth, you overpay for 2-3 years for someone like what Panarin is now (or even a lesser player.) When you throw the contract that he actually got at any player you're basically saying you're going to try to build around him and thats exactly what they tried to do. If they passed on Panarin, they're dismantling and accumulating assets for at least another season and maybe even another 2 (they had the green light to do this too.)

It was so unnecessary and just the worst case of instant gratification that I can think of. Not Monday morning QB'ing this either, I've been against this since it was a possibility because I knew what the fall out would be.

He's actually aged better than I thought he would. It could have even worked had he been able to give them 90% of what he's done in the regular season in the playoffs but we know how thats gone.
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You're definitely not a Monday Night Q on this take but Panarin is not an issue per se, or at least not the hinge pin that you make it up to be of what went wrong. The issue is that Lafreniere, Kakko and Kravtsov (and Andersson) all failed relative to expectations based on their draft positions. Drafting is not an exact science but this is some horrible bad luck (and while I fully acknowledge that drafting Lias and Vitali wasn't objectively a given, Alex and Kaapo were universal choices).

The other issue with your argument about alternative vets signings in place of Panarin - it would be far from guaranteeing that this plan would work out as in after 3-5 years of rebuilding the team will come out on the other side and make playoffs. I'm not going to list all the examples again, you know their story.

The last piece of mismanagement was organizational decision on McD. I can't help but look at how LA kept Doughty through their rebuild. With hindsight re. how McD held up physically this was probable the biggest "outgoing" blunder.
 
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